Are signature series worth getting and should artists charge more for CGC book?

[Amadeus Arkham]

Wait, so what is Rob Liefeld's pricing model?

[revat]

I have a question, does the SS "process" take more of the creator's time than signing other books? Does a witness need to rush over there and fill out paperwork or is it usually a certified "witness" who brings a stack of a badjillion books?

 

By the way...good facilitators and witnesses can become so skilled at the process that it literally takes a fraction of the time for the creator.

 

I had 51 books signed by Liefeld at Comikaze last year. It took about 4 minutes.

 

Some people had 3 books to sign, but because they wanted to sit and chat with Rob (which is fine), it took 10 minutes.

 

But Rob only made $60 or so on those 3 books. He made $1000+ on the 51 I had.

 

...from a financial perspective, which would Rob rather be doing...?

 

 

Charging more for those 51 books that take less time. Seems like the obvious answer from a financial perspective.

 

Sure, if you want to alienate your fans. Don't you think it pisses people off to have to pay more for the exact same effort as someone else?

 

Then you don't get any books to sign, eventually.

 

So the "problem" will fix itself.

 

Personally it wouldn't/doesn't me off. I think it makes sense.

 

You think charging different prices for the same service, dependent upon external factors you have nothing to do with, "makes sense"...?

 

Ooook.

 

You are advocating cutting off your nose to spite your face.

 

Yes. I think maximizing your revenue where possible makes sense.

 

I think it makes sense for artists to start charging more to sign Golden-Age or Silver-Age books. These books are obviously more valuable since they are so old and the person must be getting ready to sell them for big bucks before they retire / die.

 

We call this reasoning crazy but the logic is very similar to what is being used right now.

The funniest thing about this whole thread is that we had the same conversation - many, many times - in the Sig Room going back to 2012. It built like a crescendo and there are a number of flashpoints that caused it to become more and more in the spotlight:

 

- Tony Moore charging $5 a book for WD

- Stan's "semi-exclusive" unavailability for several years

- Other Image creators getting in on the signing fee action

- The Plastino thing

- The Swamp Thing creators charging more for SS at CCE

- Liefeld's escalating fee structure for NM 87 and 98

- Neal Adams' escalating fee schedule

- Guys like Len Wein and Wolfman charging for SS

- Whilce Portacio charging $20 for Star Wars variants

 

It happens all the time. The rules from CGC are pretty clear. If the talent is charging, pay the fee.

 

+1

 

As always, you can and should vote with your dollar.

 

 

On an unrelated note, I cannot believe Whilce is charging that much.

[N/A]

 

 

 

Is that not a badass book? Man, Perez did an amazing job.

 

DIck and Wally, their old costumes tossed about, their backs to the reader, walking away, leaving behind their adolescent personas...

 

....and beside them, sketches of who they would become, in the big white spaces...?

 

Man, what a badass book. I had that book for 22 YEARS before finally getting this done, purposely set aside for just this opportunity.

 

If anyone sees me selling this, you know it's because I've completely given up comics.

 

 

I remember the look in your eyes when you got it done.

Kid in a candy shop.

 

That's right, you were there!

 

Did I start to tear up a little...?

 

I don't remember, but I wouldn't be surprised if I did.

 

 

Your love of comics was all over your face. (thumbs u

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

As always, you can and should vote with your dollar.

 

 

On an unrelated note, I cannot believe Whilce is charging that much.

 

Except what HASN'T happened in the Sig Room is addressing the root of the problem with the creators directly.

 

Lots of kvetching about prices...but very little in the way of talking to creators to explain that "not everyone doing CGC is doing it for the fat stacks."

[miraclemet]

Wait, so what is Rob Liefeld's pricing model?

 

I dont know much about it, but I can guarantee you it has no feet and a TON OF POUCHES.

[seanfingh]

 

As always, you can and should vote with your dollar.

 

 

On an unrelated note, I cannot believe Whilce is charging that much.

 

Except what HASN'T happened in the Sig Room is addressing the root of the problem with the creators directly.

 

Lots of kvetching about prices...but very little in the way of talking to creators to explain that "not everyone doing CGC is doing it for the fat stacks."

 

CGC's policy is clear. Don't argue, wheedle, cajole or explain in nauseating detail what your theories on creator's charging policies are. Pay the fee, be nice and submit the books.

 

When you are acting as a facilitator or a witness, you agree to follow those rules.

 

There is no indication that CGC is going to enter into discussions with creators about stacks, fat or otherwise, unless they are arranging to pay creators to have signings at their booth, which worked famously in SD.

[tomo]

Wait, so what is Rob Liefeld's pricing model?

 

I dont know much about it, but I can guarantee you it has no feet and a TON OF POUCHES.

 

Somehow pouch jokes never get old, and still crack me up when I don't expect them too.

 

Thanks for the laugh!!

 

[the blob]

I have a question, does the SS "process" take more of the creator's time than signing other books? Does a witness need to rush over there and fill out paperwork or is it usually a certified "witness" who brings a stack of a badjillion books?

 

By the way...good facilitators and witnesses can become so skilled at the process that it literally takes a fraction of the time for the creator.

 

I had 51 books signed by Liefeld at Comikaze last year. It took about 4 minutes.

 

Some people had 3 books to sign, but because they wanted to sit and chat with Rob (which is fine), it took 10 minutes.

 

But Rob only made $60 or so on those 3 books. He made $1000+ on the 51 I had.

 

...from a financial perspective, which would Rob rather be doing...?

 

 

Charging more for those 51 books that take less time. Seems like the obvious answer from a financial perspective.

 

Sure, if you want to alienate your fans. Don't you think it pisses people off to have to pay more for the exact same effort as someone else?

 

Then you don't get any books to sign, eventually.

 

So the "problem" will fix itself.

 

Personally it wouldn't/doesn't me off. I think it makes sense.

 

You think charging different prices for the same service, dependent upon external factors you have nothing to do with, "makes sense"...?

 

Ooook.

 

You are advocating cutting off your nose to spite your face.

 

meanwhile it sounds like you are making a decent living buying comics, pressing them sometimes, sometimes slabbing them, sometimes SS slabbing them, so it can't be all that bad? you don't have to deal with some batsheet boss making your life miserable.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

As always, you can and should vote with your dollar.

 

 

On an unrelated note, I cannot believe Whilce is charging that much.

 

Except what HASN'T happened in the Sig Room is addressing the root of the problem with the creators directly.

 

Lots of kvetching about prices...but very little in the way of talking to creators to explain that "not everyone doing CGC is doing it for the fat stacks."

 

CGC's policy is clear. Don't argue, wheedle, cajole or explain in nauseating detail what your theories on creator's charging policies are. Pay the fee, be nice and submit the books.

 

When you are acting as a facilitator or a witness, you agree to follow those rules.

 

There is no indication that CGC is going to enter into discussions with creators about stacks, fat or otherwise, unless they are arranging to pay creators to have signings at their booth, which worked famously in SD.

 

This discussion has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with what you're talking about. No one is talking about anyone "arguing, wheedling, cajoling, or explaining in nauseating detail what their theories on creator's charging policies are."

 

Nobody has said anything about facilitators and witnesses acting contrary to CGC's rules.

 

If you think they have, you're very much mistaken. What thread are you reading?

[RockMyAmadeus]

I have a question, does the SS "process" take more of the creator's time than signing other books? Does a witness need to rush over there and fill out paperwork or is it usually a certified "witness" who brings a stack of a badjillion books?

 

By the way...good facilitators and witnesses can become so skilled at the process that it literally takes a fraction of the time for the creator.

 

I had 51 books signed by Liefeld at Comikaze last year. It took about 4 minutes.

 

Some people had 3 books to sign, but because they wanted to sit and chat with Rob (which is fine), it took 10 minutes.

 

But Rob only made $60 or so on those 3 books. He made $1000+ on the 51 I had.

 

...from a financial perspective, which would Rob rather be doing...?

 

 

Charging more for those 51 books that take less time. Seems like the obvious answer from a financial perspective.

 

Sure, if you want to alienate your fans. Don't you think it pisses people off to have to pay more for the exact same effort as someone else?

 

Then you don't get any books to sign, eventually.

 

So the "problem" will fix itself.

 

Personally it wouldn't/doesn't me off. I think it makes sense.

 

You think charging different prices for the same service, dependent upon external factors you have nothing to do with, "makes sense"...?

 

Ooook.

 

You are advocating cutting off your nose to spite your face.

 

meanwhile it sounds like you are making a decent living buying comics, pressing them sometimes, sometimes slabbing them, sometimes SS slabbing them, so it can't be all that bad? you don't have to deal with some batsheet boss making your life miserable.

 

How do you know what strangers on the internet do, and what kind of living they make, unless they've told you? That's a bit presumptuous of you, don't you think?

[the blob]

I have a question, does the SS "process" take more of the creator's time than signing other books? Does a witness need to rush over there and fill out paperwork or is it usually a certified "witness" who brings a stack of a badjillion books?

 

By the way...good facilitators and witnesses can become so skilled at the process that it literally takes a fraction of the time for the creator.

 

I had 51 books signed by Liefeld at Comikaze last year. It took about 4 minutes.

 

Some people had 3 books to sign, but because they wanted to sit and chat with Rob (which is fine), it took 10 minutes.

 

But Rob only made $60 or so on those 3 books. He made $1000+ on the 51 I had.

 

...from a financial perspective, which would Rob rather be doing...?

 

 

Charging more for those 51 books that take less time. Seems like the obvious answer from a financial perspective.

 

Sure, if you want to alienate your fans. Don't you think it pisses people off to have to pay more for the exact same effort as someone else?

 

Then you don't get any books to sign, eventually.

 

So the "problem" will fix itself.

 

Personally it wouldn't/doesn't me off. I think it makes sense.

 

You think charging different prices for the same service, dependent upon external factors you have nothing to do with, "makes sense"...?

 

Ooook.

 

You are advocating cutting off your nose to spite your face.

 

meanwhile it sounds like you are making a decent living buying comics, pressing them sometimes, sometimes slabbing them, sometimes SS slabbing them, so it can't be all that bad? you don't have to deal with some batsheet boss making your life miserable.

 

How do you know what strangers on the internet do, and what kind of living they make, unless they've told you? That's a bit presumptuous of you, don't you think?

 

Because anything you do you would do first class and succeed at. You are a giant PITA, but you are very smart and from all accounts are very competent.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

Because anything you do you would do first class and succeed at. You are a giant PITA, but you are very smart and from all accounts are very competent.

 

[Robot Man]

I have a question, does the SS "process" take more of the creator's time than signing other books? Does a witness need to rush over there and fill out paperwork or is it usually a certified "witness" who brings a stack of a badjillion books?

 

i understand RMA's irritation, i really do, but I also see the other side (and how do we know that some of these creators are not out there acquiring choice copies of their most desireable books to sign and slab? hence perhaps they are trying to to dilute that market either?), and when it becomes clear that the SS does not generally add value, I suspect prices will go down.

 

frankly, wouldn't it be in zeck's interest to have his people hunt down 9.8s (in the wild or already enslabulated) of his most awesomest covers and just have him sign and slab rather than selling the sig for $10?

 

Several creators are doing that. Several facilitators are encouraging them to do that. CGC offers free certification, to an extent, for creators who want to do that.

 

The answer is that creators make far more money simply doing what they do: creating.

 

Exactly! If Leifeld spent more time creating product that people would buy instead of scribbling his name on a comic, he would make a lot more money...

[dupont2005]

I think the real reason a creator would demand an outrageous price for a sig is to get flippers and speculators out of line so they can shake hands and speak with real fans. I wonder if those sig prices are as outrageous if they're personalized and not witnessed by CGC? I always suspected they'd get tired of being handed a bagged and boarded comic with a little tiny cutout where they're allowed to touch the thing they created by some guy who is listing the item on eBay with his smartphone as they speak.

 

I think you are missing RMA's lengthy point. Signing a comic (especially when the guy is sitting at a Con) should be worth X no matter what you do with the book. If it takes a minute to sign a book - then that minute of time should be worth X based on the popularity of the signer. If the guy getting books signed makes a million or loses a million on each signature should not come into play especially when the artist obviously can not determine the price increase/decrease of every book they sign.

 

I will say the artists must make the assumption that their signature is worth a lot of money because why else would fan boys stick 10 copies in front of them to sign with CGC looking onward? If it cost more money to get a SS slab compared to a standard slab then I guess its not a huge leap to assume their signature must be worth more or why go thru the cost and effort to get it slabbed?

Nothing I said disagreed with that.

 

Signatures cost x amount of dollars.

 

That doesn't mean an artist couldn't give away a personalized signature. Artists are allowed to do whatever they want with their signatures, including charge an arm and a leg for them. Just imagine the signature was drek and the artist was Chuck, you'd be all for his charging outrageous prices then, right?

 

And guess what, sometimes Chuck gives comics away too.

[dupont2005]

It is interesting that a free market capitalist there should be no minimum wage guy is bemoaning people charging what the market will bear for their "services", but whatever

 

I haven't said anything like that at all. You have misred (or not red at all) what I have said. Perhaps, if you chose to read everything in detail, you might come to a more accurate conclusion.

 

people charge different amounts for goods/services provided in different contexts all the time. were I in private practice i may give a break to an individual on a budget that i would not give to a corporate client so that I can have some warm fuzzies inside. i get a discount for cell phone service because of my employer.

 

There is a difference between discounting based on circumstances, and upcharging based on circumstances.

I go to Lube & Tube because I see a sign saying $30 for an oil change. I'm in a smart car. My oil change is $80, because of circumstances.

 

It's not all that unheard of.

[RockMyAmadeus]

It is interesting that a free market capitalist there should be no minimum wage guy is bemoaning people charging what the market will bear for their "services", but whatever

 

I haven't said anything like that at all. You have misred (or not red at all) what I have said. Perhaps, if you chose to read everything in detail, you might come to a more accurate conclusion.

 

people charge different amounts for goods/services provided in different contexts all the time. were I in private practice i may give a break to an individual on a budget that i would not give to a corporate client so that I can have some warm fuzzies inside. i get a discount for cell phone service because of my employer.

 

There is a difference between discounting based on circumstances, and upcharging based on circumstances.

I go to Lube & Tube because I see a sign saying $30 for an oil change. I'm in a smart car. My oil change is $80, because of circumstances.

 

It's not all that unheard of.

 

Not even remotely the same.

 

Your analogy fails, because your Lube & Tube isn't charging a different amount for the same service based on where the car is driven.

 

It's a different type of car altogether.

[dupont2005]

NO ONE is saying that people don't have the right to charge what they want and let the market decide.

 

But it is clear that some people (including many people here seemingly and many creators) have the misconception that the CGC SS sig AUTOMATICALLY adds value above and beyond the slabbing costs. Obviously, as we've seen now, that is generally untrue except in the case of some keys and a decent number of comics that grade 9.8 and higher (the older the better), or some select creators. But while certainly there are many instances where profit occurs, there are far more books that end up in someone's collection or are sold for loss or break-even.

 

RMA is saying that IF people are charging more for CGC based on that wrong assumption of automatic windfalls, they are making a BUSINESS DECISION BASED ON FALSE ASSUMPTIONS, which I think most of us generally prefer not to do, even though we certainly do have the right to do so.

 

I don't think he's saying more than that. He's not saying that there aren't profits to be made on CGC SS, all SS are great, or that all SS suck, or that creators don't deserve money.

 

P.S. If I was a creator, I might just charge CGC people more because they seemingly have more money to spend....(*note to all creators out there: Please do not assume this about me. I do not have more money to spend)

I don't think they're presuming anything. I have a feeling they simply don't like the people who show up with 39 copies of the same comic to get signed with a witness. They may or may not think you're making money, they may or may not be wrong, they most likely don't care either way and are trying to price you out of their line so they can spend more time with people whose company they find more pleasant. I strongly suspect that is the reason they do it.

[the blob]

I think you are missing RMA's lengthy point. Signing a comic (especially when the guy is sitting at a Con) should be worth X no matter what you do with the book.

----

 

Not if the artist is out there signing and selling SS slabs of his/her own books. How much this happens, I have no idea, but he/she would be diminishing the value (by diluting the market) of what they are selling out of their own inventory by creating competing SS slabs sold by others. And to the extent any of them sell any other type of "certified" autograph (as opposed to an uncertified one) such as via DFA or their own certification, SS books compete in that market (and, in fact, may edge those books out). And frankly, in theory at least, money going toward SS books may indirectly draw money away from buying sketches, etc. and other product being sold. The fanboy purchasing budget is not infinite.

[dupont2005]

It is interesting that a free market capitalist there should be no minimum wage guy is bemoaning people charging what the market will bear for their "services", but whatever

 

I haven't said anything like that at all. You have misred (or not red at all) what I have said. Perhaps, if you chose to read everything in detail, you might come to a more accurate conclusion.

 

people charge different amounts for goods/services provided in different contexts all the time. were I in private practice i may give a break to an individual on a budget that i would not give to a corporate client so that I can have some warm fuzzies inside. i get a discount for cell phone service because of my employer.

 

There is a difference between discounting based on circumstances, and upcharging based on circumstances.

I go to Lube & Tube because I see a sign saying $30 for an oil change. I'm in a smart car. My oil change is $80, because of circumstances.

 

It's not all that unheard of.

 

Not even remotely the same.

Why not? My engine is smaller than average and requires less oil. I assume it wasn't more work because I was in and out of there in about fifteen minutes. Why the 300% upcharge on me?

 

The real reason I pay more at Lube & Tube is because Pep Boys won't work on my vehicle.

[dupont2005]

It is interesting that a free market capitalist there should be no minimum wage guy is bemoaning people charging what the market will bear for their "services", but whatever

 

I haven't said anything like that at all. You have misred (or not red at all) what I have said. Perhaps, if you chose to read everything in detail, you might come to a more accurate conclusion.

 

people charge different amounts for goods/services provided in different contexts all the time. were I in private practice i may give a break to an individual on a budget that i would not give to a corporate client so that I can have some warm fuzzies inside. i get a discount for cell phone service because of my employer.

 

There is a difference between discounting based on circumstances, and upcharging based on circumstances.

I go to Lube & Tube because I see a sign saying $30 for an oil change. I'm in a smart car. My oil change is $80, because of circumstances.

 

It's not all that unheard of.

 

Not even remotely the same.

 

Your analogy fails, because your Lube & Tube isn't charging a different amount for the same service based on where the car is driven.

 

It's a different type of car altogether.

A witnessed sig and an unwitnessed personalized sig are different sigs altogether.