Are signature series worth getting and should artists charge more for CGC book?

[Robot Man]

How does one know which creators charge for their autographs and how much? I rarely get any autographs any more because there are just so few that I really care about. I would really like another Frank Miller but that boat has sailed I guess.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I just don't buy into the whole entitlement mentality that an artist/writer owes any of us a free signature because we support their work.

 

If you bought the comic book and enjoyed what else do you need from them.

 

It seems most of them will sign raw books for free generally, but I 100% agree with the business model if you want the book in a CGC Yellow case you shouldn't be upset if they want to charge you a small fee for that signature.

 

I understand a fair amount of of yellow slabs are submitted with that artist/writer's signature with the good intentions of the book being kept in ones personal collection. However they are tired of collectively seeing people only want his/her signature for monetary gain.

 

I don't blame them for wanting a fee.

 

This entire conversation has never, ever, ever, at any time, at any point, been about getting signatures for no charge.

 

Ever.

 

How much more plainly does it need to be said? How many times does it need to be said? Who can say it, that you'll believe?

 

:shrug:

 

I don't now because you are all over the place.

 

No, you just don't understand what I've said.

 

It's not a big deal, and I don't mind explaining it.

 

What do you want an artist to do then when a person walks up to their booth with 10 copies of the same book and a CGC signature witness.

 

If you RMA was that artist........how would you handle it for those 10 signatures.

 

FREE?

 

I want an artist to understand that adding his/her signature to the book doesn't automatically mean they are going to be "sold" for a "profit", and to figure out what they think is a reasonable charge for their time and effort.

 

You keep going back to this "free" thing, and I am going to keep telling you it's not about doing anything for free.

 

If I was John Byrne (ha!), and I felt my signature was worth $200 (and, at this point, it most certainly is, based solely on scarcity), I would charge $200 and sign as many as the market supported at that price. I wouldn't care where the books went, or what the owners did with them, and I certainly wouldn't be running around behaving as if I was entitled to some "profit" the owner of the book *might* make if they sold it.

 

But John Byrne is one of those creators who has ALWAYS resented that people "make money off of his signature", long before CGC (and yet, has no problem when people "make money" off work that takes far more time, far more talent, and far more work than just signing a book), so he doesn't sign at all.

 

Good for him. That's his right. But if he DID sign, he should charge the same...whatever that price is, from $0 to $10 trillion...whether the book was going into a slab, or going into a bag and board. going to eBay, or going into a box that ends up in the trash in 50 years, because what people do with their property is none of his business.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I have a question, does the SS "process" take more of the creator's time than signing other books? Does a witness need to rush over there and fill out paperwork or is it usually a certified "witness" who brings a stack of a badjillion books?

 

i understand RMA's irritation, i really do, but I also see the other side (and how do we know that some of these creators are not out there acquiring choice copies of their most desireable books to sign and slab? hence perhaps they are trying to to dilute that market either?), and when it becomes clear that the SS does not generally add value, I suspect prices will go down.

 

frankly, wouldn't it be in zeck's interest to have his people hunt down 9.8s (in the wild or already enslabulated) of his most awesomest covers and just have him sign and slab rather than selling the sig for $10?

 

Several creators are doing that. Several facilitators are encouraging them to do that. CGC offers free certification, to an extent, for creators who want to do that.

 

The answer is that creators make far more money simply doing what they do: creating.

[HighRadArt]

Just imagine how much Ditko could get for a signature...

[RockMyAmadeus]

I have a question, does the SS "process" take more of the creator's time than signing other books? Does a witness need to rush over there and fill out paperwork or is it usually a certified "witness" who brings a stack of a badjillion books?

 

By the way...good facilitators and witnesses can become so skilled at the process that it literally takes a fraction of the time for the creator.

 

I had 51 books signed by Liefeld at Comikaze last year. It took about 4 minutes.

 

Some people had 3 books to sign, but because they wanted to sit and chat with Rob (which is fine), it took 10 minutes.

 

But Rob only made $60 or so on those 3 books. He made $1000+ on the 51 I had.

 

...from a financial perspective, which would Rob rather be doing...?

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

I'm in the let the creator charge what they want camp, regardless of their motivation.

 

So is everybody else in this conversation.

Absolutely not true. I've seen at least a couple saying they would never support a creator that charged, or wouldn't ask for a commission from them if they charged, or said they [creators] are misinformed and thus charging (or charging more) based on that misinformation, or that its not fair to true (my word) collectors b/c of the price escalation.

 

Sorry, but you are incorrect. Everyone in this conversation has said that they would like a creator to charge what they want, regardless of motivation.

 

Just because they wouldn't support them personally if they charged doesn't mean they don't support their right to charge what they want.

 

The issue isn't what their motivation is. The issue is "why do they have that motivation, is it built on a faulty premise, and if so, can that faulty premise be fixed?"

 

If the faulty premise is fixed, and a creator STILL wants to charge an "SS tax" (love it), then everyone has agreed that they're perfectly free to do that. It may be cheap and tacky, but it's not based on a faulty understanding of what is happening.

 

So, yes, everybody else is in the same camp.

[KPR Comics]

Nope

[wombat]

I have a question, does the SS "process" take more of the creator's time than signing other books? Does a witness need to rush over there and fill out paperwork or is it usually a certified "witness" who brings a stack of a badjillion books?

 

By the way...good facilitators and witnesses can become so skilled at the process that it literally takes a fraction of the time for the creator.

 

I had 51 books signed by Liefeld at Comikaze last year. It took about 4 minutes.

 

Some people had 3 books to sign, but because they wanted to sit and chat with Rob (which is fine), it took 10 minutes.

 

But Rob only made $60 or so on those 3 books. He made $1000+ on the 51 I had.

 

...from a financial perspective, which would Rob rather be doing...?

 

 

Charging more for those 51 books that take less time. Seems like the obvious answer from a financial perspective.

[revat]

I have a question, does the SS "process" take more of the creator's time than signing other books? Does a witness need to rush over there and fill out paperwork or is it usually a certified "witness" who brings a stack of a badjillion books?

 

i understand RMA's irritation, i really do, but I also see the other side (and how do we know that some of these creators are not out there acquiring choice copies of their most desireable books to sign and slab? hence perhaps they are trying to to dilute that market either?), and when it becomes clear that the SS does not generally add value, I suspect prices will go down.

 

frankly, wouldn't it be in zeck's interest to have his people hunt down 9.8s (in the wild or already enslabulated) of his most awesomest covers and just have him sign and slab rather than selling the sig for $10?

 

Several creators are doing that. Several facilitators are encouraging them to do that. CGC offers free certification, to an extent, for creators who want to do that.

 

The answer is that creators make far more money simply doing what they do: creating.

 

I think that's a forgotten point too. While there certainly are some people who profit significantly from selling CGC SS books, by and large that's simply not the case. The average person sells a few to pay for a few. To do so as a significant source of income, you would need so much capital and or inventory , as well as fronting all the time and money for all the fees, then risking the grade, risking the shipping, marketing the book, selling the book, packaging the book, shipping the book, dealing with CGC and the customers. And this is without talking about extra fees, issues, and time related to facilitators.

 

And for most comic dealers, the added value of the CGC SS simply isn't worth the hassle vs selling a blue label or even a raw book.

 

So for an artist who doesn't specialize in collecting or selling comics to even consider trying to make money by signing a significant number of their own books would take connections, comic knowledge, resources, grading skills they don't have, not to mention available capital. But they most likely don't think of it that way. They just think "This mofo bought that book for a quarter in 1971, and after I sign it, its gonna be worth $3000. Of course this fool can toss me $20, I'm doing HIM the favor." They think that without taking anything else into account, especially the grade. Or what people actually pay for it. They just saw the dummy on ebay with the high listing.

 

 

[comix4fun]

Just imagine how much Ditko could get for a signature...

 

 

It was more than I would have imagined and he turned it down.

[HighRadArt]

Just imagine how much Ditko could get for a signature...

 

 

It was more than I would have imagined and he turned it down.

 

Is this a true statement? If so, ballpark?

[1Cool]

An example came to mind that may explain why I don't like the SS Tax practice.

 

Say you have a leaky toilet and tub and you call a plumber. Guy shows up and asks you if you are planning on selling the house before giving you the quote. His reasoning being the house will sell for a lot more if he fixes the issue so why shouldn't he get his cut. If your planning on staying in the house he will do it for next to nothing but doubles the price for the seller.

 

Just set a price for fixing the tub and don't worry about what I do with the house - its my house you are just fixing the tub which I'm happy to pay you for.

[comix4fun]

Just imagine how much Ditko could get for a signature...

 

 

It was more than I would have imagined and he turned it down.

 

Is this a true statement? If so, ballpark?

 

 

No, it's false. That's why I said it.

 

It was a signing, not for CGC, to coincide with the first Raimi Spider-man film.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Even if the decision to charge more for CGC books was done in error (my signature is adding xx amount of value) it seems to have lead them to a very valid business decision to charge more. Mainly that people are willing to pay more for it. So even if it was explained to them that your signature doesn't necessarily add the value you may have thought it did, they would be left with knowing that it makes sense to charge more simply because people are willing to pay more.

 

As long as people are willing to pay it, they should be free to charge whatever they want.

 

The law of diminishing returns kicks in, and doing so can have other, less tangible negative effects ("Such and such charges how much for his sig? What a d-bag. I'm never supporting his work again.")

 

I will never, ever, for any reason, support anything that Mike Dringenberg does ever again, because he's a petty, shallow little man who destroyed someone else's property soley because he had a misperception of the situation. Regardless of how it turned out, Dringenberg's motivation at the time was to be petty, vindictive, and small, to "teach someone a lesson" he had no business teaching, and he did something he had no right to do. I will also never get anything I own signed by him, for the same reason.

 

And I'm not the only one.

 

But if the market supports it, they should charge whatever they want.

 

The difference, here, is that I suspect....and I'm sure I'm wrong about a few, and am perfectly ok with being wrong about most, but I'm not wrong about all...I suspect that, if these creators knew the full picture, they would take it upon themselves...totally independent of market concerns...to address the situation in a manner they thought was equitable.

 

There really are creators who aren't "all about the money", and if they knew the people getting sigs weren't "all about it", too, they would adjust.

 

That's all anyone can hope for.

[HighRadArt]

Just imagine how much Ditko could get for a signature...

 

 

It was more than I would have imagined and he turned it down.

 

Is this a true statement? If so, ballpark?

 

 

No, it's false. That's why I said it.

 

It was a signing, not for CGC, to coincide with the first Raimi Spider-man film.

 

I figured it was considering how paranoid he is with signing anything.

[KPR Comics]

That I agree with.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I have a question, does the SS "process" take more of the creator's time than signing other books? Does a witness need to rush over there and fill out paperwork or is it usually a certified "witness" who brings a stack of a badjillion books?

 

By the way...good facilitators and witnesses can become so skilled at the process that it literally takes a fraction of the time for the creator.

 

I had 51 books signed by Liefeld at Comikaze last year. It took about 4 minutes.

 

Some people had 3 books to sign, but because they wanted to sit and chat with Rob (which is fine), it took 10 minutes.

 

But Rob only made $60 or so on those 3 books. He made $1000+ on the 51 I had.

 

...from a financial perspective, which would Rob rather be doing...?

 

 

Charging more for those 51 books that take less time. Seems like the obvious answer from a financial perspective.

 

Sure, if you want to alienate your fans. Don't you think it pisses people off to have to pay more for the exact same effort as someone else?

 

Then you don't get any books to sign, eventually.

[comix4fun]

Just imagine how much Ditko could get for a signature...

 

 

It was more than I would have imagined and he turned it down.

 

Is this a true statement? If so, ballpark?

 

 

No, it's false. That's why I said it.

 

It was a signing, not for CGC, to coincide with the first Raimi Spider-man film.

 

I figured it was considering how paranoid he is with signing anything.

 

 

It wasn't the paranoid thing. It's his belief system. He's done with Spider-man.

 

Supposedly it was a six figure payout to coincide with the movie release and a major home shopping network was involved.

[wombat]

I have a question, does the SS "process" take more of the creator's time than signing other books? Does a witness need to rush over there and fill out paperwork or is it usually a certified "witness" who brings a stack of a badjillion books?

 

By the way...good facilitators and witnesses can become so skilled at the process that it literally takes a fraction of the time for the creator.

 

I had 51 books signed by Liefeld at Comikaze last year. It took about 4 minutes.

 

Some people had 3 books to sign, but because they wanted to sit and chat with Rob (which is fine), it took 10 minutes.

 

But Rob only made $60 or so on those 3 books. He made $1000+ on the 51 I had.

 

...from a financial perspective, which would Rob rather be doing...?

 

 

Charging more for those 51 books that take less time. Seems like the obvious answer from a financial perspective.

 

Sure, if you want to alienate your fans. Don't you think it pisses people off to have to pay more for the exact same effort as someone else?

 

Then you don't get any books to sign, eventually.

 

So the "problem" will fix itself.

 

Personally it wouldn't/doesn't me off. I think it makes sense.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

I think that's a forgotten point too. While there certainly are some people who profit significantly from selling CGC SS books, by and large that's simply not the case. The average person sells a few to pay for a few. To do so as a significant source of income, you would need so much capital and or inventory , as well as fronting all the time and money for all the fees, then risking the grade, risking the shipping, marketing the book, selling the book, packaging the book, shipping the book, dealing with CGC and the customers. And this is without talking about extra fees, issues, and time related to facilitators.

 

There is a tremendous, TREMENDOUS amount of risk, time, and effort in doing all of this, that, again, isn't explained to creators. Sig series isn't a money printing machine.

 

Despite what Schmidt said earlier, the reality is that the vast, vast majority of people SELLING SS books ARE losing a tremendous amount of money...not dollars, per se, but time, effort, risk, and energy.

 

They do it because they love it, and are happy to do it. Very few people are getting rich doing sig series. Very few, if any. A lot of us, if we're making any money at all, are working for $5, $7, $10/hour, if that.

 

And creators don't know any of that, because no one's taking the time to explain it to them.

 

They see that "I sold this for a quarter in 1971, and this guy will sell it for $3,000" eBay listing, and don't know what happened in between. Envy kicks in, and "it's not FAIR!" and we have the situation we have now.