Are signature series worth getting and should artists charge more for CGC book?

[RockMyAmadeus]

Perhaps I'm being naive, but it seems like there must be a few people here who have access to creators. If all they need is someone to explain things to them is it really that hard to make that happen? Or at least access to people who have better access to them directly?

 

its a bit of a tough topic to broach, and if its actually creator you like, you probably have other things you'd want to talk to them about.

 

additionally, there's a rule for facilitators (who actually have the most contact with these creators) that they're not supposed to discuss their pricing with them. Just pay and move on (someone can correct me on that rule if I'm wrong). And generally, its also not in best interests of the facilitators to tell ANYONE that adding sigs does not add value. Its a conflict of interest. The more 'sigs' they sell, the more money they get.

 

So it would really be up to the other CGC SS people to inform creators, the ones who actually meet creators in person.

 

I am not a facilitator, but when I have served as a witness, I have not, do not, and would not say or do anything that might possibly jeopardize my being there as a witness, for any reason, or in any way possible do anything that might be perceived as anything less than a totally positive reflection on CGC.

 

But, as Joe Blow fan guy off the street, I have talked to many people in the SS program about having these conversations with creators outside the context of the convention line.

 

And yes, as Joe Blow fan guy off the street, I have, in a roundabout way, tried to explain all the costs that go into the process, what the end result is, and why I, personally, am doing it. Has it made a difference? Maybe, maybe not. Have they understood that getting Swamp Thing #76 signed by him and Totleben isn't going to be for sale, and doesn't carry a premium over and above the costs even if it was? Hopefully. Probably not. But hopefully.

 

 

 

 

[seanfingh]

(To Blob: SS costs $10 more per book over the regular tier price.)

 

Maybe someone should kvetch to CGC too? Yes, SS costs them more money to administer, but it also increases volume of slabbing.

 

Frankly I don't think $10 for SS signings vs. $5 or $3 is too bad, but $40-50 vs. $5 or $3 is a bit unseemly.

 

It would cost me thousands of dollars more to compile my collection now as opposed to over the past 9 years. All my Neal Adams sigs were free in 2008. Same with Romita, Kirkman and Moore, (I may have paid for a couple TM sigs but they were $5 then), McFarlane, over half of my Sterankos were free. All of my Stan Lees were done between $20 and $40. They run $75-100 now.

 

It's just a different world now as people see the "commoditization" of the SS books.

 

if you don't mind asking, and its none of my business, can you estimate how many books you've had signed, and how many of those you've sold vs kept?

 

I just think some people might benefit from knowing that not everyone immediately flips all their CGC SS, contrary to surprisingly popular belief. In fact, I think most people keep most of theirs, but there are many people out there that don't believe that.

 

I'll start. I've probably had 40-50 books signed for CGC SS. I've sold probably 5-7of those (and PIF'd one away and giving tree'd one away)? I readily admit that I've tried to sell a few more but couldn't make money so I kept them, because its NOT THAT EASY TO PROFIT ON CGC SS. (Not that I haven't bought and sold others or bought and kept others)

 

 

 

Another weird hypothetical: Some creators are weary when someone brings up 50 copies of the same comic, they think it must be to flip for profit. But what if it was just like a huge fan, who's actually kinda creepy and has pictures of that creator and that specific comic all over their room, with like homemade bedsheets made from that comic, and a million newssclippings of that creator and the whole crazy nine yards. And you've just peeved him off by calling him a flipper....

 

I would actually HOPE these 50 comics are for profit, and not some crazy obsessed person who thinks they're really Firestorm or Darkhawk (I'm looking you BOBOSET) or Starfire.

 

 

I have about 1300 SS books. And about 50-60 in process (which is normal for most summer con seasons.) I have probably sold a couple hundred SS books in the last 7 years or so. Many were dupes, many were books I wasn't happy with the grades on, and some were situations where i did 2 or 3 of the same book so i could sell the dupes to pay for the sub.

 

If creators knew how many solicitations I got on MySlabbed Comics to sell these buggers, they would know I'm not in it to sell it.

 

 

[Amadeus Arkham]

Here's a book that I didn't mind paying for and given that Herb Trimpe passed this year, I'm glad that I did. A Desert Wind/Herb Trimpe variant of Death of Wolverine #1 ain't worth much, but it means a lot to me.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

I was just sorting long boxes and thinking about this topic for a while.

 

As others have mentioned, signing was a lot cheaper, or free, "in the old days."

 

Unfortunately, because the whole niche wasn't properly explained to creators, and word got out that certain books were being offered for ridiculous amounts, and other books were even selling for ridiculous amounts....but no one countered that by saying "hey, creators, those are the exceptions, not the rule...", then creators felt that they were being taken advantage of.

 

And, of course, the ever spiraling costs to get books signed began.

 

Now, if I want to get an Infinity Inc #14-37 and Annual #1 signed by McFarlane...and I do....I'll have to pay $50 each, plus about $30 for the slab process, plus about $2-$3 a book for shipping, to get that done.

 

That's nearly $80-90 per book for each and every book I get done. And, since I only want 9.8s, if I get a 9.6, the book isn't any good to me.

 

And that doesn't even account for any value the book might have, which in this case is "none."

 

So, it would cost me...just to get Todd to sign, never mind Roy, which would be a whole additional slab fee...about $2250, provided I managed to hit all 9.8s...to get my Infinity Inc run signed and slabbed. Forget getting doubles to sell to pay for the rest, because a McFarlane signed Infinity Inc #27 in 9.8 is worth *maybe* $60. Maybe.

 

 

Infinity Inc #27? The last 9.8 sold for $11. There is a single SS sale recorded, signed by Todd...a 9.4 #14, which sold for $75 in 2011...not even close to "making a profit." And yet, Todd did 25 separate issues on the title, and it's a GREAT run.

 

Sure, people getting 9.8 ASM #300s are "making a profit." But what if you want something *besides* a 9.8 ASM #300 signed by Todd?

 

As a result of these increasing prices, sellers who try to sell these SS McFarlanes are asking ever spiraling prices, too. An average of $300-$400 on the low end for ANYTHING signed by McFarlane. And, of course, they're not selling. When these books are offered at a "99 cent" starting bid, they invariably sell for less than it cost to get the book done.

 

So, the "sellers" ask more and more, and the creators ask more and more, and where does this merry-go-round stop?

 

An ASM #325 in 9.6 just sold for $81. That's less than it would cost to replace it. An ASM #299 in 9.0 signed by Lee and McFarlane (with an unwitnessed Michelinie sig) just sold for $130....that seller, if they paid for the sigs, lost money.

 

Now, again...if that's what people are willing to pay, more power to Todd. Truly.

 

But eventually, those people who can afford to pay these prices will eventually complete what they're looking for and will no longer be sending things in to get signed.

 

Sure, the free market will take care of the situation eventually, but life is not infinite, and who knows what may happen tomorrow?

 

Am I just whining? Sure, of course I am. I'm shut out, and I have to wait patiently until the market corrects itself....but I hope that correction doesn't take 10 years to work itself out...and I hope we don't lose McFarlane, or anybody else, in that time, although we certainly must.

 

 

Creators don't seem to have a problem when the publishers, distributors, and retailers take much, much, MUCH larger "profit", percentage-wise...guaranteed profit, by the way, of every unit sold....but they have a problem with someone *maybe* making a profit off of their signature, and that not even necessarily so...?

 

It's madness.

[porcupine48]

Lou the Hulk refused to sign a Canadian 1979 tv guide newspaper insert for me because he didnt recognize it,was not certain hed been paid for the use of his image. It would have been sweet.

[thirdgreenham]

via Imgflip Meme Maker

[jcjames]

I was just sorting long boxes and thinking about this topic for a while.

 

 

.

.

.

It's madness.

 

I must say you make a compelling argument.

 

[MagnusX]

[font:Book Antiqua]

The CGC Signature market is due for a correction,

 

Once that you sum all your cost for a signature

you realize how ridiculous prices are...

[/font]

 

 

 

 

I was just sorting long boxes and thinking about this topic for a while.

 

As others have mentioned, signing was a lot cheaper, or free, "in the old days."

 

Unfortunately, because the whole niche wasn't properly explained to creators, and word got out that certain books were being offered for ridiculous amounts, and other books were even selling for ridiculous amounts....but no one countered that by saying "hey, creators, those are the exceptions, not the rule...", then creators felt that they were being taken advantage of.

 

And, of course, the ever spiraling costs to get books signed began.

 

Now, if I want to get an Infinity Inc #14-37 and Annual #1 signed by McFarlane...and I do....I'll have to pay $50 each, plus about $30 for the slab process, plus about $2-$3 a book for shipping, to get that done.

 

That's nearly $80-90 per book for each and every book I get done. And, since I only want 9.8s, if I get a 9.6, the book isn't any good to me.

 

And that doesn't even account for any value the book might have, which in this case is "none."

 

So, it would cost me...just to get Todd to sign, never mind Roy, which would be a whole additional slab fee...about $2250, provided I managed to hit all 9.8s...to get my Infinity Inc run signed and slabbed. Forget getting doubles to sell to pay for the rest, because a McFarlane signed Infinity Inc #27 in 9.8 is worth *maybe* $60. Maybe.

 

 

Infinity Inc #27? The last 9.8 sold for $11. There is a single SS sale recorded, signed by Todd...a 9.4 #14, which sold for $75 in 2011...not even close to "making a profit." And yet, Todd did 25 separate issues on the title, and it's a GREAT run.

 

Sure, people getting 9.8 ASM #300s are "making a profit." But what if you want something *besides* a 9.8 ASM #300 signed by Todd?

 

As a result of these increasing prices, sellers who try to sell these SS McFarlanes are asking ever spiraling prices, too. An average of $300-$400 on the low end for ANYTHING signed by McFarlane. And, of course, they're not selling. When these books are offered at a "99 cent" starting bid, they invariably sell for less than it cost to get the book done.

 

So, the "sellers" ask more and more, and the creators ask more and more, and where does this merry-go-round stop?

 

An ASM #325 in 9.6 just sold for $81. That's less than it would cost to replace it. An ASM #299 in 9.0 signed by Lee and McFarlane (with an unwitnessed Michelinie sig) just sold for $130....that seller, if they paid for the sigs, lost money.

 

Now, again...if that's what people are willing to pay, more power to Todd. Truly.

 

But eventually, those people who can afford to pay these prices will eventually complete what they're looking for and will no longer be sending things in to get signed.

 

Sure, the free market will take care of the situation eventually, but life is not infinite, and who knows what may happen tomorrow?

 

Am I just whining? Sure, of course I am. I'm shut out, and I have to wait patiently until the market corrects itself....but I hope that correction doesn't take 10 years to work itself out...and I hope we don't lose McFarlane, or anybody else, in that time, although we certainly must.

 

 

Creators don't seem to have a problem when the publishers, distributors, and retailers take much, much, MUCH larger "profit", percentage-wise...guaranteed profit, by the way, of every unit sold....but they have a problem with someone *maybe* making a profit off of their signature, and that not even necessarily so...?

 

It's madness.

[wombat]

So compare the price between getting a sig and getting it slabbed. All part of the process that is extra from buying the book itself. Is the reason someone can only afford to get x number of sigs done because of the price of the sig or the price of getting it slabbed? Is it fair to single out one aspect of the cost, but not the other? Who "deserves" more money? The artist/creator that you have the connection to that makes you want this in the first place or the company that puts it in a piece of plastic?

 

 

[kav]

People are writing on books! They are writing on books!!!

Grrrrrrrrrr

[RockMyAmadeus]

So compare the price between getting a sig and getting it slabbed. All part of the process that is extra from buying the book itself. Is the reason someone can only afford to get x number of sigs done because of the price of the sig or the price of getting it slabbed? Is it fair to single out one aspect of the cost, but not the other? Who "deserves" more money? The artist/creator that you have the connection to that makes you want this in the first place or the company that puts it in a piece of plastic?

 

 

I wasn't aware anyone was "singling out" one aspect of the cost, but not the other. This was a discussion about sig fees, not slab fees, but if you want to have a discussion about slab fees, feel free.

 

CGC's tier price differences are also part of the issue.

[wombat]

So compare the price between getting a sig and getting it slabbed. All part of the process that is extra from buying the book itself. Is the reason someone can only afford to get x number of sigs done because of the price of the sig or the price of getting it slabbed? Is it fair to single out one aspect of the cost, but not the other? Who "deserves" more money? The artist/creator that you have the connection to that makes you want this in the first place or the company that puts it in a piece of plastic?

 

 

I wasn't aware anyone was "singling out" one aspect of the cost, but not the other. This was a discussion about sig fees, not slab fees, but if you want to have a discussion about slab fees, feel free.

 

CGC's tier price differences are also part of the issue.

 

Sure. But you were talking about how much it was costing you per book (including CGC fees) and saying how high that was. So it seems relevant to discuss all aspects of why it is so high and not just one aspect of it.

[RockMyAmadeus]

So compare the price between getting a sig and getting it slabbed. All part of the process that is extra from buying the book itself. Is the reason someone can only afford to get x number of sigs done because of the price of the sig or the price of getting it slabbed? Is it fair to single out one aspect of the cost, but not the other? Who "deserves" more money? The artist/creator that you have the connection to that makes you want this in the first place or the company that puts it in a piece of plastic?

 

 

I wasn't aware anyone was "singling out" one aspect of the cost, but not the other. This was a discussion about sig fees, not slab fees, but if you want to have a discussion about slab fees, feel free.

 

CGC's tier price differences are also part of the issue.

 

Sure. But you were talking about how much it was costing you per book (including CGC fees) and saying how high that was. So it seems relevant to discuss all aspects of why it is so high and not just one aspect of it.

 

Ooooook.

 

The difference is in the value of what you're getting for your money.

[wombat]

So compare the price between getting a sig and getting it slabbed. All part of the process that is extra from buying the book itself. Is the reason someone can only afford to get x number of sigs done because of the price of the sig or the price of getting it slabbed? Is it fair to single out one aspect of the cost, but not the other? Who "deserves" more money? The artist/creator that you have the connection to that makes you want this in the first place or the company that puts it in a piece of plastic?

 

 

I wasn't aware anyone was "singling out" one aspect of the cost, but not the other. This was a discussion about sig fees, not slab fees, but if you want to have a discussion about slab fees, feel free.

 

CGC's tier price differences are also part of the issue.

 

Sure. But you were talking about how much it was costing you per book (including CGC fees) and saying how high that was. So it seems relevant to discuss all aspects of why it is so high and not just one aspect of it.

 

Ooooook.

 

The difference is in the value of what you're getting for your money.

 

Sure. Personally the sig would be more valuable to me than the plastic.

[seanfingh]

It's hard to argue the value of slabbing when a CGC 9.8 copy of a book sells for 10-15x a high grade raw copy.

[wombat]

It's hard to argue the value of slabbing when a CGC 9.8 copy of a book sells for 10-15x a high grade raw copy.

 

True. But I thought this wasn't about money. Lots of discussion around getting sigs for personal collections. And certainly no guarantee of getting that 9.8.

 

You can see slabbed books selling on ebay all the time that probably lost money just on slabbing.

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

So compare the price between getting a sig and getting it slabbed. All part of the process that is extra from buying the book itself. Is the reason someone can only afford to get x number of sigs done because of the price of the sig or the price of getting it slabbed? Is it fair to single out one aspect of the cost, but not the other? Who "deserves" more money? The artist/creator that you have the connection to that makes you want this in the first place or the company that puts it in a piece of plastic?

 

 

I wasn't aware anyone was "singling out" one aspect of the cost, but not the other. This was a discussion about sig fees, not slab fees, but if you want to have a discussion about slab fees, feel free.

 

CGC's tier price differences are also part of the issue.

 

Sure. But you were talking about how much it was costing you per book (including CGC fees) and saying how high that was. So it seems relevant to discuss all aspects of why it is so high and not just one aspect of it.

 

Ooooook.

 

The difference is in the value of what you're getting for your money.

 

Sure. Personally the sig would be more valuable to me than the plastic.

"Value" and "valuable" aren't the same thing.

[seanfingh]

It's hard to argue the value of slabbing when a CGC 9.8 copy of a book sells for 10-15x a high grade raw copy.

 

True. But I thought this wasn't about money. Lots of discussion around getting sigs for personal collections. And certainly no guarantee of getting that 9.8.

 

You can see slabbed books selling on ebay all the time that probably lost money just on slabbing.

 

 

You don't seem to be following all of the topics. The main thrust of RMA's discussion is that the high grade of the book and the certification and encapsulation thereof has far more to do with the FMV of the SS book than the signature does.

 

It is an unassailably true statement with some exceptions, mostly due to rarity or cost of the signatures.

 

9 times out of ten a 9.8 Blue label will sell for more than a lesser grade Yellow label.

[wombat]

It's hard to argue the value of slabbing when a CGC 9.8 copy of a book sells for 10-15x a high grade raw copy.

 

True. But I thought this wasn't about money. Lots of discussion around getting sigs for personal collections. And certainly no guarantee of getting that 9.8.

 

You can see slabbed books selling on ebay all the time that probably lost money just on slabbing.

 

 

You don't seem to be following all of the topics. The main thrust of RMA's discussion is that the high grade of the book and the certification and encapsulation thereof has far more to do with the FMV of the SS book than the signature does.

 

It is an unassailably true statement with some exceptions, mostly due to rarity or cost of the signatures.

 

9 times out of ten a 9.8 Blue label will sell for more than a lesser grade Yellow label.

 

Maybe I am missing something. There seemed to be a lot of talk about how most people aren't flipping these books and they are for their personal collection.

[revat]

The misconception is that all or most ss are created to be sold for profit

 

The truth is that the majority is that most are kept or sold for loss or break even

 

 

Rma is advocating his hope that more creators understand this truth

 

That's it.

 

No one is saying that it's not profitable sometimes

 

Or that creators shouldn't charge at all

 

Or that creators shouldn't charge whatever they want