Are signature series worth getting and should artists charge more for CGC book?

[RockMyAmadeus]

It's hard to argue the value of slabbing when a CGC 9.8 copy of a book sells for 10-15x a high grade raw copy.

 

True. But I thought this wasn't about money.

 

Who said it wasn't about money?

 

This entire conversation has been about the money. That's the whole issue.

 

The issue is "who has the right to the money, and why?"

 

 

 

[HighRadArt]

The misconception is that all or most ss are created to be sold for profit

 

The truth is that the majority is that most are kept or sold for loss or break even

 

 

Rma is advocating his hope that more creators understand this truth

 

That's it.

 

No one is saying that it's not profitable sometimes

 

Or that creators shouldn't charge at all

 

Or that creators shouldn't charge whatever they want

 

 

 

 

It's a good thing you keep bringing the train back on the track.

[RockMyAmadeus]

The misconception is that all or most ss are created to be sold for profit

 

The truth is that the majority is that most are kept or sold for loss or break even

 

 

Rma is advocating his hope that more creators understand this truth

 

That's it.

 

No one is saying that it's not profitable sometimes

 

Or that creators shouldn't charge at all

 

Or that creators shouldn't charge whatever they want

 

 

 

 

And, even if WAS true that all SS was created to be sold for profit, it shouldn't matter. What someone does with their property isn't anyone else's business. The price of a service shouldn't change based on the perception of the person providing the service about what the customer is going to do with the results.

 

But I know it does, because...well...it's not fair.

[wombat]

It's hard to argue the value of slabbing when a CGC 9.8 copy of a book sells for 10-15x a high grade raw copy.

 

True. But I thought this wasn't about money.

 

Who said it wasn't about money?

 

This entire conversation has been about the money. That's the whole issue.

 

The issue is "who has the right to the money, and why?"

 

 

 

A certain aspect of money I will agree with. Were arguments not being made that why should someone be charged more for a sig going to CGC when they had no intention of selling it? That it was for a personal collection?

 

When you laid out all of those costs for that run of books would that have been to flip or to keep?

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

It's hard to argue the value of slabbing when a CGC 9.8 copy of a book sells for 10-15x a high grade raw copy.

 

True. But I thought this wasn't about money. Lots of discussion around getting sigs for personal collections. And certainly no guarantee of getting that 9.8.

 

You can see slabbed books selling on ebay all the time that probably lost money just on slabbing.

 

 

You don't seem to be following all of the topics. The main thrust of RMA's discussion is that the high grade of the book and the certification and encapsulation thereof has far more to do with the FMV of the SS book than the signature does.

 

It is an unassailably true statement with some exceptions, mostly due to rarity or cost of the signatures.

 

9 times out of ten a 9.8 Blue label will sell for more than a lesser grade Yellow label.

 

Maybe I am missing something. There seemed to be a lot of talk about how most people aren't flipping these books and they are for their personal collection.

 

Yes, you're missing something.

 

It *shouldn't matter* to a creator what someone does with their own property.

 

HOWEVER...

 

The reality is, it does matter to (some) creators, SO....if it is explained that it is ALSO true that the vast majority of SS books are NOT being sold for a profit, much less a BIG profit, then perhaps those creators won't be so quick to the cash grab.

 

It's more complex than it needs to be, because there are people who are inappropriately concerned with what someone else does with their property. But since those people who are inappropriately concerned are creators that people otherwise admire, and whose signatures we want, concessions are made.

 

But it's not really all that complex. And those concessions aren't limitless.

 

As much as it is about respecting the creator, so should the creator respect the fan. It's always a two-way street.

 

Maybe they will charge the same, who knows? But at least coming from a position of knowledge is better than making these decisions based on erroneous information.

[wombat]

Just to be clear I understand your reasoning for why you don't think a someone should charge more for an SS sig vs a non SS sig given why you think they are doing it.

 

I'm just not sure I agree that is why they all do it or if they would change if they even knew. But perhaps they would.

[RockMyAmadeus]

It's hard to argue the value of slabbing when a CGC 9.8 copy of a book sells for 10-15x a high grade raw copy.

 

True. But I thought this wasn't about money.

 

Who said it wasn't about money?

 

This entire conversation has been about the money. That's the whole issue.

 

The issue is "who has the right to the money, and why?"

 

 

 

A certain aspect of money I will agree with. Were arguments not being made that why should someone be charged more for a sig going to CGC when they had no intention of selling it? That it was for a personal collection?

 

 

No.

 

The argument is this: it's not the creator's business what I do with my property. The *creator* shouldn't be charging more based on where the book ends up. It's no one's business what I do with my property, and charging different prices because of the perception of the creators isn't appropriate.

 

However, AGAIN....the REALITY is that these creators ARE overly concerned with what people are doing with their own property, so if it needs to be explained to them that the majority of the books aren't sold, and of those that are, very few sigs add a premium...then so be it.

 

The argument doesn't rest on the fact that the majority of the books aren't going to be sold. The argument rests on the fact that it's none of the creator's business. But since the ACTUAL argument will annoy (some) creators, if it is explained that the vast majority aren't sold, which is still true, it may be easier for them to ACCEPT and not charge different prices.

 

In other words, if I say "it's none of your damn business" (which is the absolute bottom line truth), I won't get very far.

 

But if I make an appeal to their understanding and sense of fair play, by saying that the majority of the books aren't sold, and the ones that are, most aren't sold at a profit....which is still absolutely, completely true....though not the actual argument, it may persuade them to come around. More honey on the flies dipped in vinegar and whatnot.

 

It's still none of their damn business....but I didn't have to come out and say that outright.

 

 

And, that way, no one is bound by the "but it's for my COLLECTION!" and then be made to look like a liar if, totally outside their control, something happens and they have to sell the item to pay for things. Not that some people wouldn't play that angle...but they wouldn't be forced to, just so they wouldn't be charged the "SS tax."

[RockMyAmadeus]

Just to be clear I understand your reasoning for why you don't think a someone should charge more for an SS sig vs a non SS sig given why you think they are doing it.

 

I'm just not sure I agree that is why they all do it or if they would change if they even knew. But perhaps they would.

 

Some would. Others wouldn't. That's reality.

 

But it would a lot nicer if the entire CGC program, including the SS program, wasn't slathered with the "dirty flippers" brush, and creators were operating from a position of accurate understanding, rather than misperception, regardless of their ultimate decision.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Because, after all...the publishers take the creators' work...have it edited, assembled, and printed...and "flip" the resulting product to distributors, do they not...?

 

Yes, of course they do. Do the creators complain about that? No.

 

And the distributors take that product and "flip" it to retailers.

 

And retailers take that product and "flip" it to customers.

 

In fact, SOME retailers take books they paid their standard distribution price for and charge MORE than they normally would. Shouldn't the creators see some of that money, by this "SS tax" reasoning...?

 

After all....did Dan Jurgens see one extra penny on all the sales of Superman #75 that were taking place for $100 within a few weeks of release?

 

Nope.

 

Why? Because he sold his work to DC, DC sold the finished product to Diamond, Heroes, Capital City, and whomever else was around, and they sold the product to the retailers. What the retailers did with those books is nobody's business but the retailers' and their customers.

 

Where along this path does the creator stop and say "hey! you're making more profit than I think you should! I want more money!"

 

Sure, they can certainly negotiate for better terms if they see their work is selling well....just like they can negotiate with the SS seller.

 

"Hey, you sold this XYZ #273 9.8 with my signature on it for $800 more than an unsigned one sold for in the same grade! My signature made you $800! You only paid me $20 for that signature. I want more!"

 

At that point, the SS seller says "Yes, Mr. Creator, but I also had to sell 37 other books for *less than*, or maybe just a little bit more than, it cost to obtain your signature, and I had to pay your asking price for these 53 other books that haven't even sold, so the one $800 "profit" was met with the other 37 "losses."

 

"Plus, I have to carry my inventory, which costs money, plus my expenses, plus my labor, plus my overhead, plus my costs. I'm more than happy to compensate you for the $800 sale, if we can have the discussion averaged out over the sum total of the experience.

 

"Yes, please, let's discuss how much I really made, shall we...?"

 

That would be an interesting conversation. Seeing only part of the picture...the "$800 profit!"...and ignoring the other costs associated with it, is operating from an erroneous position.

 

After all...if a creator's work started to turn in lower performance numbers on the market...the publisher isn't going to be willing to pay them the same amount as when they were a superstar, are they....?

 

So why should it be any different with the SS program?

 

Hopefully, if creators understood this, they wouldn't charge different prices. Charge one price, all the way around, and charge enough so that you won't be concerned with what happens to the item afterwards, and everyone will be happy. If no one likes your price, you'll have to adjust, or not. If the price is acceptable, hey, win for you.

 

 

[seanfingh]

 

the majority of the books aren't sold, and the ones that are, most aren't sold at a profit....which is still absolutely, completely true."

 

I do not know if this is completely true. I suspect that it is not. I suspect that more books are being done for retail than for personal collections. It is an educated suspicion, but a suspicion nonetheless.

[revat]

 

the majority of the books aren't sold, and the ones that are, most aren't sold at a profit....which is still absolutely, completely true."

 

I do not know if this is completely true. I suspect that it is not. I suspect that more books are being done for retail than for personal collections. It is an educated suspicion, but a suspicion nonetheless.

 

I would less educatedly suspect that the number of books who get a cgc ss done and keep for at least two years or sell for a loss in the first two years far outweighs the number of books who sell for a profit in the first two years.

 

To me it's less about the intent (yes many people try to retail for profit but ultimately don't), and more about actual realized profits.

 

Sean you yourself probably know at least ten other people who have had 1000+ Cgc ss done, if not more. Do they keep more cgc ss than they sell for profits?

[bababooey]

[the blob]

RMA, what about the "dilution" argument? By signing your book for SS they are creating marketable certified "memorabilia" that competes with product they may want to sell themselves. of course, signing a raw book does that too, but SS has seemingly eliminated most pricing premiums for those sorts of books. heck, a COA from the creator isn't good enough nowadays for much of the market. Of course, many of these folks are not selling certified copies of their signatures on books right now, but maybe they will in the future, so the more SS books out there (that they aren't selling themselves) devalue those future signatures, they might as well make their loot now on those transactions.

 

Of course, these folks are probably not thinking like this, but the economist in me (I do have an economics degree I haven't used, other than the one accounting class i took for the major, in 20 years for what it's worth) is trying to come up with a rational reason to charge different prices for the same service (signing a book).

[Arkham]

 

the majority of the books aren't sold, and the ones that are, most aren't sold at a profit....which is still absolutely, completely true."

 

I do not know if this is completely true. I suspect that it is not. I suspect that more books are being done for retail than for personal collections. It is an educated suspicion, but a suspicion nonetheless.

 

I would less educatedly suspect that the number of books who get a cgc ss done and keep for at least two years or sell for a loss in the first two years far outweighs the number of books who sell for a profit in the first two years.

 

To me it's less about the intent (yes many people try to retail for profit but ultimately don't), and more about actual realized profits.

 

Sean you yourself probably know at least ten other people who have had 1000+ Cgc ss done, if not more. Do they keep more cgc ss than they sell for profits?

 

So many topics to comment on... So little time.

 

Regarding CGC SS sales for a loss, my experience:

I've changed my focus in the past six to twelve months. To fund this I have had to sell a bunch of books that I could've sworn I would never sell... The vast majority of which have been CGC SS. In most circumstances, I am selling at less than I bought. Especially when you factor in US to AU $ conversion and shipping costs from the US to AU.

 

Regarding creator's caring about what people do with their own property:

Who could forget Sadfan's Sean's experience with creators worrying about what people do with their personal collections?

 

 

I'm still outraged by that.

[Broke as a Joke]

Popular artist looks out over the crowd. There is a line of young kids with comics flopping in hand just wanting an autograph, in another line is balding middle aged men with CGC witnesses at the standby clutching books in mylars. Who would you charge more? Seriously?

[thecopperagekids]

I had three auctions end last night for disappointing prices on some pretty key books, so maybe.

 

In one case, a double signed book sold for less ($305 vs. $350) than an unsigned book sold for last week. That always frosts me. All that extra work and trouble for a loss. Yet, when priced at $450 with best offer, nothing. No bites, no offers, nothing.

 

:shrug:

 

Next time, try that sort of book at $375 or $395 BIN (+shipping).

 

Getting top dollar on eBay (for most books) requires waiting for months, for books to move.Unless the book is in peak demand, you're going to screw yourself.I've done it more than once myself....

 

Also, I avoid selling via auction style like the bubonic plague.If you really want to be on the receiving end of taking a hard one, I'd suggest trolling Craigslist for a transsexual and getting it done with, minus the 7 day wait.

 

::ca-ching:: :: Hi-hat::

(STUDIO AUDIENCE APPLAUSE lights flashing)

 

Auctions=automatic profit death.

 

15-20 years ago, I sold every book I had in auction...started them all off at "original cover price of 10 (or 12) cents"....the same approach now, and I'd be giving away books for jack and balls.

 

The bulk of eBay buyers do not understand the comic market at all.Either that, or they understand it all too well.

 

If I wanted to, I could buy up plenty of raw silver movie keys( Marvel Super Heroes 13 etc) in auction all day long.....dry clean and press them...and then post them back on ebay at double my buy in price...sell them via BIN within a couple days of listing them, if not sooner.Point being, people are stupid.

 

Certain books....beater to mid grade copies of modern keys like NM 98 and BA 12 are easy $200+ BIN sales.

 

Again...people are stupid.

 

I think that was my point....

 

My apologies to all in advance for this post...

 

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

I had three auctions end last night for disappointing prices on some pretty key books, so maybe.

 

In one case, a double signed book sold for less ($305 vs. $350) than an unsigned book sold for last week. That always frosts me. All that extra work and trouble for a loss. Yet, when priced at $450 with best offer, nothing. No bites, no offers, nothing.

 

:shrug:

 

Next time, try that sort of book at $375 or $395 BIN (+shipping).

 

Hey, thanks. I mean, I've only sold on eBay since 1998, so....ya know, I'm kinda new.

 

 

Also, I avoid selling via auction style like the bubonic plague.If you really want to be on the receiving end of taking a hard one, I'd suggest trolling Craigslist for a transsexual and getting it done with, minus the 7 day wait.

 

If you're into that sort of thing, why bother with transsexuals? It's still a dude, no matter how much makeup he has on.

 

 

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Popular artist looks out over the crowd. There is a line of young kids with comics flopping in hand just wanting an autograph, in another line is balding middle aged men with CGC witnesses at the standby clutching books in mylars. Who would you charge more? Seriously?

 

You're not too familiar with conventions, huh...?

[cujobyte]

As Sean said many pages back, this thread cracks me up.

 

Btw, IF (capitalized if) I sell in auction, I generally start the comic with a price I feel comfortable letting it go at. Def' not trying to tell Rock how to sell, as him and I have been both selling since 98'. It's just a tough game right now.

 

August always ='s buying month for me, which is why I'm soooo broke lately.

[thirdgreenham]

I had three auctions end last night for disappointing prices on some pretty key books, so maybe.

 

In one case, a double signed book sold for less ($305 vs. $350) than an unsigned book sold for last week. That always frosts me. All that extra work and trouble for a loss. Yet, when priced at $450 with best offer, nothing. No bites, no offers, nothing.

 

:shrug:

 

Next time, try that sort of book at $375 or $395 BIN (+shipping).

 

Hey, thanks. I mean, I've only sold on eBay since 1998, so....ya know, I'm kinda new.

 

 

Also, I avoid selling via auction style like the bubonic plague.If you really want to be on the receiving end of taking a hard one, I'd suggest trolling Craigslist for a transsexual and getting it done with, minus the 7 day wait.

 

If you're into that sort of thing, why bother with transsexuals? It's still a dude, no matter how much makeup he has on.

 

 

 

 

via Imgflip Meme Maker