Pressing

[FFB]

I have a technical question:

 

 

Is the process of relaxing and pressing the fibers of newsprint pages potentially detrimental to a comic's longevity? And I mean particularly in the case of 50-to-60-year-old books where the page quality may not be that great to begin with.

 

 

Forgive me if this has been addressed before (and please direct me to a link ).

 

Adding heat and/or humidity to newsprint will accelerate the aging of the newsprint (that is how the Library of Congress does its accelerated aging of paper testing). The question is how much heat and how much humidity you add, and for how long. For a simple press job, you are not going to see a difference in page quality following the press because there's not enough heat, humidity, and time spent in those conditions to get an appreciable difference. But it does have an effect, whether or not you can see it right away.

[Silver Surfer]

But there policy is quite specific regarding NDP.

 

It's not restoration.

 

So here we have an instance, where CGC is VERY CLEAR, and they get MORE GRIEF.

 

I'm not debating what is or what isn't but show me where it is CLEAR (written policy) without me having to do a thread search or climb some mountain to find some wise man to tell me. You just highlighted my point. If I'm wrong I apologize in advance. Good grief is right.

[Silver Surfer]

Mark, we have gone over this many times so let me sum it up in a way that would make sense to you.

 

1) Pressing is to some people restoration, to others it is not

2) CGC does not comment on NDP, either on the label or graders notes, even if they knew the book had been pressed

3) CGC has graded over 500,000 books, of which some have been pressed

4) While there could be a financial impact by saying that a book has been pressed, there would be no way to insure that the new buyer would make the same information available when he decided to sell a book.

5) If CGC decided to note NDP that they could absolutely determine, that would INVALIDATE all books gradedto date (including all the books that you purchased as being unrestored). THIS IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

6) If you don't want to buy pressed comic books, there is only one option. DON'T COLLECT COMIC BOOKS.

 

Those are the facts, and are undisputable.

 

Policies can always change regardless of what actions were taken in the past. I am not going to use this post to reopen the can of worms of whether pressing is restoration. Again, this is irrelevant. We are talking about a marketability impact. It is clear from the debate that many prospective buyers would think twice about purchasing a pressed book if they had that knowledge and choice.

 

I still don't have a clear understanding of why "slight color touch", "small amount of clue", "rusted staple", is stated on the slab. For what reasons?

 

Moreover, the fact that CGC has declined to denote pressing on the slab is not at all surprising. I have great respect for CGC, and I am very pleased it exists. Frankly, I wish I had thought of it. I'm sure I would have a lot more money that I do now. But the issue of pressing presents a clear and understandable financial conflict of interest to CGC.

 

So long as it takes the position that pressing will not be designated, and the notion that pressing is not restoration is promoted within the community, coupled with the undisputed fact that the higher grade a book is the more money it commands (and for the books that I deal with, the difference between an 8.5 and a 9.2 could be tens of thousands of dollars), CGC will financially benefit. For example,

 

First, for certain books of value or for onsite grading, CGC takes a percentage of the FMV for its fee. The more the book is worth, the greater the fee (up to $1,000).

 

Second, not designating pressing on the slab provides an incentive to people to unslab their book, have it pressed, and then reslabbed. I would think that is money in the pocket that CGC did not anticipate upon having already slabbed the book once.

 

Third, those who had books that are currently, say, a 5.0 - 8.0, which perhaps would not justify slabbing, could suddenly find themselves in possession of a book worth slabbing after merely investing $20 per book. I would imagine this is another category of prospective sales that would otherwise not have existed in the business plan (at least the one that did not envision pressing).

 

No doubt other examples could be listed. Again, this is not meant to serve as a criticism of CGC or any of its owners/employees, but their interest in the outcome of this debate is quite significant and by no means free of self-interest survivorship and profitability. Whether a change of policy occurs will come from the demands of the community. And whether that change is attempted will depend on if the community is more concerned with ensuring disclosure or enhancing the value of their collection. This will involve a decision of principle.

 

I, for one, vote for disclosure.

 

Mark well said. I try to think logically, want to support what CGC has done as it has brought to hobby to new levels but when I ask myself "why" to the very points you raised I remain skeptical.

[sfilosa]

I agree Mark that we disagree.

 

All your points are valid but once again remember this:

 

Who are you expecting disclosure from,

1) the person who had the book pressed,

2)CGC (who can not always tell)

3)the buyer (who now wants to sell the book) and might have known or not that the book was pressed.

 

Unless CGC notes it (which they won't / haven't / might not be able to tell), SOMEWHERE down the line, the INFORMATION that the book was PRESSED will NOT be TRANSMITTED to ANOTHER BUYER.

 

So the person who profits the most, is the person who buys DISCLOSED pressed books and sells then without DISCLOSING the pressing.

 

That's why we have CGC, to level the playing field.

 

Got to run to MEGACON!!!!!!

Bye

[Newerthannew]

Good Morning:

 

Some clarification has been asked for. This is not a personal attack in anyway, but a general clarification for all. Hope this helps:

 

However, what I was getting at is -- are there different "tiers" of non-disassembly pressing?

 

For instance, a simple mechanical press versus a press that uses pressure plus some combination of heat and/or light moisture. Further, a press job that will just get rid of non-colorbreaking creases vs. a press job that will also get rid of moisture wrinkles.

 

Technically, yes, there are different levels of intervention, just as there are different levels of restoration.

 

I imagine for the price of $20, and how it is worded. It sounds to me like it is just a plain flat press. The kind that makes many books look like a popular breakfast food. Considering other types of pressing can become much more labor intensive.

Just a guess on my part though.

 

I had a good chuckle when I read this! If the work I did for clients over the last 5 years had looked like "a popular breakfast food", then I really don't think I should be offering a service to the general public.

 

More details from Eclipse would indeed be welcome info. I am surprised at the launch of this announcement by them does not include some description of what kind of pressing will be taking place for the $20 fee.

 

To just say.. you can press 5 books for $20 each, is more then a little vaugue.

 

I didn't really think anything more needed to be said. For $20.00, whatever I can do to improve the condition of any submissions is what I am prepared to do. Even if I need to introduce heat or humidity into the fibers of the paper, it doesn't take that long to accomplish! For $20 each, I will press your books to the best of my abilities.

 

ALSO:

 

 

I thought this disclaimer by them says alot too..

 

Quote:

Due to the nature of pressing and grading, we cannot guarantee that an improvement will be made or that any defects will be removed completely, nor can we guarantee that your book will receive an unrestored label if sent to a 3d party grading company for grading!

 

 

How can I guarantee that a book will be better than it was? I have had customers who have thought their books were 9.4's when I thought they were 7.0's. Until the book is actually graded by CGC it could anything!!!! Only CGC can say what a book is/isn't going to grade as. It would be foolish of me to say that I guarantee that your 9.4 is going to become a 9.6, when it has just as likely a chance of staying a 9.4 or becoing a 9.2 based on whatever criteria they use! All I can say with any certainty is, that I am fairly certain I will make an improvement and that most defects will either be eliminated or reduced in severity.

 

As for guaranteeing that a book will not receive an unrestored label, I'm not checking books for trimming, color-touch, etc, etc. That's a separate service at my regular rates. If a book does receive a plod (purple label of death) guess I can safely say that it will not be for any pressing work that I do...

 

Any further questions, visit the website link or email me directly.

 

Thanks

Trace

www.eclipsepaper.com/pressing.htm

trace@eclipsepaper.com

[awe4one]

If a book does receive a plod (purple label of death) guess I can safely say that it will not be for any pressing work that I do...

 

So you'll compensate those that get a PLOD because of the pressing? Steve has thrown the "profeesional pressing" statement around a bit. If it didn't meet this criteria (whatever that is), a PLOD would be given. Are you willing to guarantee that this won't after you've performed the pressing?

 

Jim

[Ze-man]

Hi Trace, thnx for your thoughts. Since most of the questions you answered were in response to my post. I will try to clarify a bit more what I meant with my statements..

 

If the work I did for clients over the last 5 years had looked like "a popular breakfast food", then I really don't think I should be offering a service to the general public.

 

Like I said in my post.. this was only a guess on my part.. not meant to be an attack on the quality of your work. I was merely quessing that for the $20 fee you charge was on the low end of what you would normally charge for other types of more involved/invasive pressing. And even when done correctly.. dry flat pressing an already HG book..does give the books a more crisp, flat squashed look.

 

I didn't really think anything more needed to be said. For $20.00, whatever I can do to improve the condition of any submissions is what I am prepared to do. Even if I need to introduce heat or humidity into the fibers of the paper, it doesn't take that long to accomplish! For $20 each, I will press your books to the best of my abilities.

 

I understand it does not take that long to do this process, I just meant for the $20 flat fee I was wondering what/how many methods you will employ to achieve the desired results?

I had just hoped for more clarification.. and or more education about what exactly would be done to the books before a person submits them.

 

 

 

===========================================================

 

Due to the nature of pressing and grading, we cannot guarantee that an improvement will be made or that any defects will be removed completely, nor can we guarantee that your book will receive an unrestored label if sent to a 3d party grading company for grading!

 

 

How can I guarantee that a book will be better than it was? I have had customers who have thought their books were 9.4's when I thought they were 7.0's. Until the book is actually graded by CGC it could anything!!!! Only CGC can say what a book is/isn't going to grade as. It would be foolish of me to say that I guarantee that your 9.4 is going to become a 9.6, when it has just as likely a chance of staying a 9.4 or becoing a 9.2 based on whatever criteria they use! All I can say with any certainty is, that I am fairly certain I will make an improvement and that most defects will either be eliminated or reduced in severity.

 

As for guaranteeing that a book will not receive an unrestored label, I'm not checking books for trimming, color-touch, etc, etc. That's a separate service at my regular rates. If a book does receive a plod (purple label of death) guess I can safely say that it will not be for any pressing work that I do...

 

 

Trace.. I know you cannot guarantee any improvement to the books, or can you help it if a book was restored before it is submitted to you. that was not my expectation.. or point.

I was commenting about a book submitted to 3rd party grading company not being given a PLOD.. I took this statement..nor can we guarantee that your book will receive an unrestored label if sent to a 3d party grading company for grading as you saying.. AFTER you do your work.. you cannot say for sure if CGC will .. or will not deem the pressing work done as resto..or not.

But I now see you have said you can safely say the books you press will not come back as restored no matter what method of pressing you employ. Even if you have to disassemble the book?

 

This is all very confusing to try and discuss with all these previous posts, and quotes.... I hope I made a modicum of sense.

 

Ze-

[Illiterati-migration]

But I now see you have said you can safely say the books you press will not come back as restored no matter what method of pressing you employ. Even if you have to disassemble the book?

 

This would be because CGC does not consider pressing restoration, Dummy.

 

He's been TRYING to clarify this for you, but you're not keeping up.

[FFB]

If a book does receive a plod (purple label of death) guess I can safely say that it will not be for any pressing work that I do...

 

So you'll compensate those that get a PLOD because of the pressing? Steve has thrown the "profeesional pressing" statement around a bit. If it didn't meet this criteria (whatever that is), a PLOD would be given. Are you willing to guarantee that this won't after you've performed the pressing?

 

Jim

 

Have you ever seen a book that got a PLOD just because of pressing? No.

 

Unless he takes the book apart, the book isn't going to get a PLOD because of the press job.

[Ze-man]

So I assume disassembly pressing will not be covered under the $20 fee then?

[FFB]

And I assume dissasembly pressing will not be covered under the $20 fee?

 

Why would you want him to disassemble the book? Disassembly will get you a PLOD. Would you pay someone $20 to do something to a high grade book that would result in a purple label?

[Ze-man]

And I assume dissasembly pressing will not be covered under the $20 fee?

 

Why would you want him to disassemble the book? Disassembly will get you a PLOD. Would you pay someone $20 to do something to a high grade book that would result in a purple label?

 

 

That was exactly my point Scott, it is not stated what kind of pressing would, or would not be done.

Hence why I originally was asking why Trace said he cannot guarantee a book not getting a PLOD.( and he has since answered that in his post)

 

We do not need to go down this road again.. We all know CGC's stance on what types of pressing will be given a PLOD. You know that I of all people know that.

And of course I do not think someone would send in a GA book and expect it to be disassemble for $20 , if they had hopes of slabbing it and getting a Blue label.

 

I was simply trying to clarify what exactly will, or will not be done to our comics when sent in to Trace for pressing... I am just asking questions here in an effort to identify what exactly is being offered for the $20 fee.

 

 

Ze-

[awe4one]

Have you ever seen a book that got a PLOD just because of pressing? No.

 

Unless he takes the book apart, the book isn't going to get a PLOD because of the press job.

 

Have I seen any with just pressing? Honestly can't remember any specific examples but I seem to think there was one with amateur pressing...I could be wrong and confusing it with something else...

 

Regardless, Steve posted on these Forums that comics where amateur pressing was detected would get PLODs so there's a chance for it to happen. And that's the crux of my question...would Eclipse guarantee their work from receiving PLODs for just pressing?

 

Jim

[esquirecomics]

I agree Mark that we disagree.

 

All your points are valid but once again remember this:

 

Who are you expecting disclosure from,

1) the person who had the book pressed,

2)CGC (who can not always tell)

3)the buyer (who now wants to sell the book) and might have known or not that the book was pressed.

 

Unless CGC notes it (which they won't / haven't / might not be able to tell), SOMEWHERE down the line, the INFORMATION that the book was PRESSED will NOT be TRANSMITTED to ANOTHER BUYER.

 

So the person who profits the most, is the person who buys DISCLOSED pressed books and sells then without DISCLOSING the pressing.

 

That's why we have CGC, to level the playing field.

 

Got to run to MEGACON!!!!!!

Bye

 

There is nothing wrong with differences of opinion, and there is certainly room for it on this particular issue. I think this thread has offered us all some useful commentary on both sides.

 

Let me continue a few thoughts in response.

 

First, I agree with the premise you raise that there is a potential flaw in the system surrounding pressing because someone may not be as honest as another in disclosing the fact that a book has been pressed. Steve B. has previously posted on another pressing thread the difficulties that apparently exist in identifying whether a book has or might have been pressed. I don't know if this is generally true or not, but as I value Steve's opinion I'll accept this for now (although it would be interesting to hear from those within the professional restoration field whether they believe pressing can be discerned after their handiwork. If they did, one would think they would so claim outright).

 

Second, there is no doubt that for certain books, such as GA pedigrees, the existence of pressing would be quite evident, i.e., we know what the book previously graded at either slabbed or unslabbed and if it were resubmitted as the pedigree after pressing, there is no question about it. If people want to go out and have their 9.2 copy of X-Factor #1 pressed to get a CGC 9.8, more power to you. Go right ahead.

 

But the beauty to me of a Mile High book (or Larson, Reilly, etc) from 1939 is that a collector cherished these books in his house, stored them in a natural environment and setting (which, yes, amounted to "pressing") and now nearly 70 years later the book is gorgeous. To then take such a beautiful, historic book, and artificially modify it, whether this is restoration or not, to me, denigrates the beauty. It is not the same thing, in my opinion. Perhaps others differ. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and with comics it is no different.

 

Third, I am not entirely clear on how CGC has "leveled the playing field" when it comes to pressing. I view it instead that CGC offers a way to pressers to essentially cleanly and lawfully money launder their handiwork. Except for the pedigree copies as referenced above, no doubt placing a book in a CGC holder would make it increasingly difficult, if even possible, to ascertain whether a book has been pressed.

 

Finally, I expect full disclosure from everyone. Now, there are bad dealers/sellers and good dealers/sellers in every industry. My father owns used car dealerships. There are car dealers who willingly sell lemons to people, or cars that had modifications made (which perhaps did not impact the value of the car), and there are those dealers who will provide full disclosure of all changes to the vehicle. Numerous threads have discussed the topic of color touching and how several well-known dealers deliberately - so it has been said - sold color touched books during the 1980s as unrestored. I find it incredible that, if true, these dealers are still deriving the business today that they do in light of these allegations. Maybe you're right. Perhaps in the comic community, buyers don't care if the dealer they purchase from withholds potentially crucial information so long as they get the book they want for their own collections or resale. For me, however, I refuse to operate that way. Buyers will receive full disclosure to the best of my knowledge.

 

I'll finish with this one last thought to everyone. Nowadays, when I purchase expensive books from other dealers, collectors, auction houses, etc., I inquire as to whether the book has been pressed. I obtain the responses in writing, and I purchase the book(s) in reliance on assurance (of course, based on their personal knowledge) that no pressing has occurred. If I ever discovered later that the seller misled me, I would not hesitate to pursue all available legal mechanisms to either obtain a full refund or damages. There are protections that exist for all of us governing contractual purchases. For those of you, even if a minority, who share my concern regarding a lack of disclosure regarding pressing, I encourage you to seek written assurances from the sellers as well (and if you find out you were deceived, you contact me). The power in comics is with the buyers, not the sellers.

 

Hope Megacon is successful for you and anyone else attending.

[FlamingCarrot]

[sterlingcomics]

 

Mmmm...pancakes!

[FFB]

Have you ever seen a book that got a PLOD just because of pressing? No.

 

Unless he takes the book apart, the book isn't going to get a PLOD because of the press job.

 

Have I seen any with just pressing? Honestly can't remember any specific examples but I seem to think there was one with amateur pressing...I could be wrong and confusing it with something else...

 

Regardless, Steve posted on these Forums that comics where amateur pressing was detected would get PLODs so there's a chance for it to happen. And that's the crux of my question...would Eclipse guarantee their work from receiving PLODs for just pressing?

 

Jim

 

That's not what Steve said. Steve said that if the book is not taken apart and if the pressing is done correctly, there is no way to tell that it has been pressed and CGC wouldn't give it a purple label even if they knew it had been pressed as long as the book wasn't taken apart.

 

If the book is not taken apart and the pressing is not done correctly (too much humidity, heat, and/or pressure) the resulting damage done to the book is graded as a defect or set of defects and the book is downgraded accordingly into a BLUE label slab.

 

If the book is taken apart, then it is considered restored.

[FFB]

And I assume dissasembly pressing will not be covered under the $20 fee?

 

Why would you want him to disassemble the book? Disassembly will get you a PLOD. Would you pay someone $20 to do something to a high grade book that would result in a purple label?

 

 

That was exactly my point Scott, it is not stated what kind of pressing would, or would not be done.

Hence why I originally was asking why Trace said he cannot guarantee a book not getting a PLOD.( and he has since answered that in his post)

 

We do not need to go down this road again.. We all know CGC's stance on what types of pressing will be given a PLOD. You know that I of all people know that.

And of course I do not think someone would send in a GA book and expect it to be disassemble for $20 , if they had hopes of slabbing it and getting a Blue label.

 

I was simply trying to clarify what exactly will, or will not be done to our comics when sent in to Trace for pressing... I am just asking questions here in an effort to identify what exactly is being offered for the $20 fee.

 

 

Ze-

 

OK Kenny, I think I understand where your question was coming from now (the non-guarantee about the PLOD). For a minute, I thought you'd been inhaling carbon monoxide fumes or that you were hopped up on goofballs.

[deathlok]

 

Mmmm...pancakes!

Double Mmmmm...Mmmmmm.

[esquirecomics]

I am running both a test and hoping to start a trend. The test is determining whether openly revealing that a book has been pressed will impact its sale. The trend is to promote full disclosure by all sellers, especially dealers who should have the integrity to be completely honest to their customers about all factors that may impact a book's value.

 

On www.ComicCollectors.net, I have for sale the Mile High copy of Military Comics #38 (pictured below). A very nice book indeed. Apparently, according to the MH census compiled by Arty, this book was originally graded an 8.5. Since it is now a 9.4, I presume logic dictates it was pressed (unless someone can come up with another reasonable possibility). I bought it already CGC'd so I have no idea of who owned it previously.

 

As of tonight I have added the following text to the description of the book:

 

** FULL DISCLOSURE: This book is on consignment from Mark S. Zaid of EsquireComics.com. Available evidence indicates that this Mile High copy had originally been graded an 8.5, but has apparently been pressed by a former owner to achieve the current CGC 9.4 grade. **

 

No doubt bids will be rushing in, or will they? There is no doubt in my mind that acknowledging the existence of pressing will have a negative impact on marketability (perhaps not price b/c some people may just not care). The primary reason, in my opinion, that pressing is not yet considered restoration by the leaders in the community who set the trends and policies, and most especially why even if it is never considered restoration it nevertheless will not be denoted on the CGC slab, is $$$$$$$$$.