Pressing

[Ze-man]

You could be correct, but I have a feeling (like you said) that if the staples are remove, then probably the cover is also being cleaned.

 

I would like to know if a Press Job can be done just as effectively without removing the staples as it can, removing the staples.

 

Anyone?

 

I think for a book to warrant dissasembly it has to have flaws that affect the entire book..spine roll , or creases that affect every interior page as well as the cover etc... once the book is apart each page is pressed individually .. then re assembled.

(Tracey... yes you can chuckle now.. as I am just guessing)

 

Here is a PM I got from Steve B. awhile ago when I was bugging him about what CGC's stance on pressing was. .

From: sborock

 

CGC will not guess if a book has been pressed or not. If a book has been badly pressed (damaged and or taken apart) , CGC, like any other handling defect, will down grade for it. Some books, after being pressed, will look cleaned and will get a purple label because it now looks cleaned and some will get a green label if the staples have been moved to such a degree that they look replaced, so now they are replaced. We get calls all the time saying "My book has not been cleaned, I sent it to so and so and they just pressed it."

 

You may post this if you want.

Best,

Steve

 

 

 

Ze-

[Ze-man]

But it does crack me up to now see how carefully everything is worded when it comes to describing RESTORATION.. and CONSERVATION

 

I was recently looking around at the many companies that offer restoration. And I found it odd that when I clicked on the RESTORATION SERVICE link on the Classics Incorporated website.. it lists this among the descriptions of the different types of restoration services they offer.

Slight restoration

Slight jobs usually cover cleaning, pressing, support and seals, and averages $60-$200 per book. The best candidates for this service are just about any book, particularly copies that are very solid overall (in the GD to VG range), and exhibit minor defects like tears, spine splits, spine rolls, dirty covers or pages, or detached covers. Given the right book, the impact of light work can dramatically improve the appearance for little cost.

 

 

But then you clik on the CONSERVATION link .. and it takes you to this description.

CONSERVATION

Using this service, Classics Incorporated has helped clients find something we call “hidden value” in their collections. The hidden value usually lies within mid and high grade copies exhibiting small defects, such as dents, impacted corners, light creases, spine rolls, warping and folding that can be corrected with safe, non-restorative techniques. Removal of the right defects can dramatically improve the appearance of your comics, and possibly increase the grade and value without the book becoming “restored.” We have invested thousands of hours researching and developing these techniques, and our track record is unparalleled.

 

Because .. as they say about the Conservation of Comics ...The comics are not disassembled, nor do we use abrasive materials like chemicals, or perform any work that would constitute restoration.

 

Does that mean ALL of their Slight Restoration Pressed books employ the same methods used above.. but ARE also dissasembled? Hence pegging them as RESTORED?

Even if only slightly?

 

Still seems like alot of the work can be done to a book in an effort to conserve it, and still not call it restoration.

Heck.. maybe we will not even need the word restoration 10 years from now.

Instead of PLOD's... we can just have CLOD's

 

 

And yes that means I am kidding...(kinda)

 

Ze-

 

 

 

[PovertyRow]

This is all very confusing to try and discuss with all these previous posts, and quotes.... I hope I made a modicum of sense

 

You did. My take on this is probablt the same as Tracey's. Being this...and this is my thoery...whicvh is mine...that dinosaurs are very very big....

 

 

errr - no - we must hear from the 4-legged man ("He ran away!)

 

Dang!

 

OK - this is Pov - ignore the channelers.

 

Tracey is quite right and proper in saying he cannot guarantee a PLOD won;t happen on a book he pressed because how can he know what may happen after the book is received by the customer? And how can he detect some subtler forms of restoration if the book is not submitted for a resto check? Or do we expect a full resto-check for the $20 press fee? Nah!

 

HOWEVER, I am quite sure that if Tracey presses a book (no clean - no mend etc - just press) and it comes back from CGC with PLOD just from his pressing? I think he will make it right. But I also think you will not see such a PLOD for only a true Pro Press.

[esquirecomics]

I have little doubt that this question is not addressed on numerous other threads and likely even this one, so forgive the repetition but I simply do not want to spend the time scrolling through everything to find the answer.

 

I have one simple question and I ask for whomever feels they are the BIGGEST advocate/supporter of pressing to respond. One response is fine. I am not looking to restart this discussion. If you want to PM me instead of posting the response, that's fine too.

 

QUESTION: Why is pressing not considered restoration given it "restores" or "returns" the presumed original quality of a book?

 

This question has nothing to do with whether or not pressing can be detected. The answer to that is irrelevant (although if you think otherwise, I'd be interested in the rationale).

 

Thanks.

[Aman619]

I guess I stumbled here a few minutes after you posted the question. First I must tell you that you SHOULD read the threads to get the full nuanced discussion of why something so obvious, just isnt in the present state of the hobby.

 

To use Dave Sim terminology: a book that has been pressed HAS undergone "restoration" to its former condition... but, it may have not become a "Restored" book in the process. The devil is in the details. A "Restored" book is one that CGC determines has had restoration and is slabbed with a purple label. Since they cant detect pressing 100% certainty, many books that have had pressing done (or been "restored") do not get purple labels and in effect are therefore NOT (in the marketplace) "Restored" books. Only comics with purple labels ( whose restoration has been detected by CGC who slabs them) and books with disclosed restoration, plus all raw books with detectable color touch etc. are "Restored" comics.

 

This may change over time. But its all we got right now.

[Aman619]

by the way, I reread you question and want to add I am not answering as teh biggets supporter of pressing as you requested. Just taking the forst stab at getting you up to speed on what has become one of our "favorite" issues in the last year around here.

[nearmint]

I'm not the #1 advocate either, but here's my two cents.

 

If I were in court with my hand on the bible, then yes, I'd have to say that pressing is resto. There's no doubt in my mind that a defect was corrected to return the book to it's orginal condition.

 

But, as a form of resto that adds nothing(except pressure, moisture, and perhaps heat?) to the book, it's a negligible process. So negligible, that CGC claims(and I believe them) that they cannot conclusively identify it in many cases.

 

Others will claim that the pressure/heat affects the paper fibers at a molecular level. But not in my lifetime, or perhaps the next generation, so again, negligible.

 

The cat is now out of the bag that pressing has been going on for years. It's been discussed and debated, but in the practical world, very few collectors have changed their buying habits as a result of this knowledge.

 

What I'm getting at is this...if it can't always be identified, and collectors don't change their buying habits when they know full well that the books may have been pressed, then whether it's pressed or not becomes a moot point.

[Aman619]

right. the only thing thats changed of late is the multiples that CGC grades yield. And even there, books that were pressed before CGC also led to a higher sticker price. To me, the multiples have greatly goosed the game. Before, a upgrade due to presing could only net you at most up to double guide or so. Now, on books above 8.5 the price can triple or even go up 6-fold. Theres a far greater upside and incentive today.

 

Also, to me, the idea of buying a slabbed book in x grade IN ORDER to press it up higher is clearly cheating. But, there doesnt seem to be anything we can do about it and CGC cannot help either.

[sfilosa]

Also, to me, the idea of buying a slabbed book in x grade IN ORDER to press it up higher is clearly cheating.

 

I'm not sure how this would be anymore "cheating" then buying a raw book and pressing it?

[VintageComics]

Wouldn't the easiest way to answer Marks question be to say that nothing is added to the book, and nothing is taken away? The process of NDP is a pretty much natural process that will occur anyway over time under the right conditions...with every other form of conservation or resto...something is added to the book (colour touch, glue, bleach, rehumidification) or taken away (trimming etc.). That is why it cannot be detected with certainty....because who is going to differentiate bewteen a book pressed by Tracey or at home in some more primitive method? Correct me if i'm wrong.

[Aman619]

once again, as was discussed in those interminable therads, pressing a book to get rid of creases etc is has a different more targeted effect than just lkeaving a book under a lot of weight for years.

[VintageComics]

but for all practical purposes, the end result is the same!

[goldust40]

but for all practical purposes, the end result is the same!

 

That has yet to be adequately quantified. With the application of heat and intense (and unnatural) pressure, the structure of the book could be altered - either due to dehydration, the art from one page transferring to another due to the pressing, etc.

 

I've mentioned this before on countless threads, so whatever. I hope I'm wrong and that there aren't any adverse effects to heat - assisted NDP.

[metropoliscomics]

You guys should listen to my interviews with Susan Cicconi, Matt Nelson, Steve Stryke, Gary Carter and Mike Naiman. They all share their thoughts on this subject. I do believe that all this debate is interesting but in the end, if done well, it is virtually impossible to detect so how can we debate what we can not detect?

VZ

[PedigreeMan]

You guys should listen to my interviews with Susan Cicconi, Matt Nelson, Steve Stryke, Gary Carter and Mike Naiman. They all share their thoughts on this subject. I do believe that all this debate is interesting but in the end, if done well, it is virtually impossible to detect so how can we debate what we can not detect?

VZ

 

It's a damn shame that it has to come down to "what we can detect." In an ideal world, everyone would be above-board and offer full disclosure on anything done to a book.

 

I also find it quite interesting that those dealers and restorers who feel pressing isn't restoration all have personal financial incentives with the process. Susan seemed to be the most in favor of calling it restoration, and she doesn't offer the service (or if she does, its done in conjunction with other work). And our own Povertyrow -- who's the closest thing to a professional restorer you'll find as a regular here -- is quite adamantly in the "pressing is restoration" camp. Surprisingly, he has no financial stake in the process.

 

Things to think about.

 

Alan

[awe4one]

I also find it quite interesting that those dealers and restorers who feel pressing isn't restoration all have personal financial incentives with the process. Susan seemed to be the most in favor of calling it restoration, and she doesn't offer the service (or if she does, its done in conjunction with other work). And our own Povertyrow -- who's the closest thing to a professional restorer you'll find as a regular here -- is quite adamantly in the "pressing is restoration" camp. Surprisingly, he has no financial stake in the process.

 

Exactly. CGC, for good or bad, put a stigma on the restorer's work and resulting product in the marketplace. Their talent became mostly frowned upon after CGC started operations. Now CGC, whether on purpose (doubtful initially but I'm sure it dawned on a couple later on) or not, has given them a new avenue to ply their craft without the associated stigma (remains to be seen).

 

Pure and simple...it's a business opportunity and a way of getting back into the market in a major way. Of course they're going to say it isn't restoration whether it is or not...

 

Jim

[shrunkenhead]

You guys should listen to my interviews with Susan Cicconi, Matt Nelson, Steve Stryke, Gary Carter and Mike Naiman. They all share their thoughts on this subject. I do believe that all this debate is interesting but in the end, if done well, it is virtually impossible to detect so how can we debate what we can not detect?

VZ

 

It's a damn shame that it has to come down to "what we can detect."

 

 

No disrespect meant, Vince, but I gotta say amen on this point.

[BassGMan]

 

It's a damn shame that it has to come down to "what we can detect." In an ideal world, everyone would be above-board and offer full disclosure on anything done to a book.

 

I also find it quite interesting that those dealers and restorers who feel pressing isn't restoration all have personal financial incentives with the process. Susan seemed to be the most in favor of calling it restoration, and she doesn't offer the service (or if she does, its done in conjunction with other work). And our own Povertyrow -- who's the closest thing to a professional restorer you'll find as a regular here -- is quite adamantly in the "pressing is restoration" camp. Surprisingly, he has no financial stake in the process.

 

Things to think about.

 

Alan

 

This is why it is always important to understand the point of view and where they are coming from of anyone on any subject. These debates always remind me of a classic courtroom case where you have a defense attorney versus a prosecutor. They'll argue for the side that benefits themselves. But it is always surprising how many people will change their point of view once that they are on the other side and stand to benefit from their once former opposite stance on the matter.

 

Of course everybody has a certain line they won't cross, and there are exceptions, but as a general rule this is often quite true. ALWAYS consider the bias of the source.

[PedigreeMan]

ALWAYS consider the bias of the source.

 

Exactly. Consulting an "expert" isn't always the answer if said expert has a biased slant toward one side of the issue. Now, of course, everyone has some sort of partiality in some direction on everything, but when it's driven by an overpowering force -- like money -- one would be foolish to ignore it. In the most extreme cases, to continue Sid's courtroom analogy, said witness would be fairly well impeached by this bias.

 

It seems like a lot of people here tend to ignore Povertyrow's opinions on this issue. I don't know why this is. Perhaps because he's viewed more as "one of us" rather than one of the "elite outsiders" we all ooh and ahh over. But when it comes to matters of restoration, Pov has the deepest understanding of it out of all of us (he learned under Susan C. for chrisakes!), AND because he doesn't practice the craft for profit is one of the board's most unbiased voices on this topic.

 

Again, just my two cents worth.

 

Alan

[Ze-man]

It seems like a lot of people here tend to ignore Povertyrow's opinions on this issue. I don't know why this is. Perhaps because he's viewed more as "one of us" rather than one of the "elite outsiders" we all ooh and ahh over. But when it comes to matters of restoration, Pov has the deepest understanding of it out of all of us (he learned under Susan C. for chrisakes!), AND because he doesn't practice the craft for profit is one of the board's most unbiased voices on this topic.

 

I also think because Pov is not the kind of guy who toots his own horn in such a way as to stomp his feet, and recite his credentials everytime he makes a post. MANY people here really do not have any idea of his background, or all the knowledge he still has left rattling around in his rum soaked noggin.

 

We have spoken many times about this is it resto topic. And it is a shame that it cannot be more cut and dry. Because pressing is so hard to detect, makes it seem acceptable for many to believe what the elite outsiders are telling them as gospel.

And as you have said, those are the same people who have a bias on the subject.

Of course they do not want to call it resto of any kind. Seeing as how the PLOD label is already viewed as a bad thing by most of the collecting community..if minor/slight pressing was also considered a form of Slight Resto.. then it would more then likely dramatically reduce the # of possible submissions for press only commisions.

And if I am not mistaken... it seems lately to be a staple of a restorers weekly workload

Hence why I guess Chris F. is wanting to go out on his own. There must still be alot of books waiting to be pressed. And alot of money to still be made.

 

I for one would like to hear more from Susan C. again about how she EXACTLY views NDP in relation to what it is being used for in todays market. And by not calling it resto has allowed it to become so much more widespread in such a short amount of time.

And is she is not offering press only jobs because of her personal opinion on the topic?.. or is it how she has always run her biz?

 

What I really would love to know is among all of us against pressing.. how many have actually had press work done on books they are selling? To US...and not saying a word about any work being done.

I imagine there are some here who talk the talk.. but do not, walk the walk

 

But then again. We are talking about big $$$ here..and I suppose that is why they are in the biz, to try and make as much $$$ as they can.

 

 

Ze-