Pressing

[awe4one]

Steve said this in a previous thread: "Skybolt - When a book is badly pressed, you can still see signs of creases and other defects, so we treat it the way we would treat any other book, by down grading for those defects. Others have gotten a purple because they really ruined the book, I know this because the submitter will call and say that the book was not cleaned, only pressed. I tell them that if it looks cleaned and feels, it does not matter how it got that way. If a book is "squashed" it is also down graded. If we cannot tell if a book has been pressed, I guess it is done correctly or it has not been pressed at all.

 

So is Tracey willing to guarantee that CGC will not PLOD books he's pressed? That's the question...I already know CGC's stance on the issue...I've read the same threads. Steve has made a point of prefacing all mention of pressing with the word "professional" and has indicated "amateur" pressing would get the PLOD. Nothing that's been said so far has changed that other than giving specific examples that does everything but answer my question.

 

And Jim- I don't let others do the talking for me, I agreed with what he said. Why should I type that stuff out all over again, which I have already explained on these boards before, instead of just giving it the "thumbs up" ? What is the difference? I know you have a bug about CGC and the pressing issue, but do not make it personal.

 

I don't know what you're talking about since I didn't respond to you...unless you're secretly a shill for FFB...

 

Jim

[nearmint]

Jim, the 2nd quote was a continuation of the first. Steve said them both, not Greggy.

[awe4one]

Jim, the 2nd quote was a continuation of the first. Steve said them both, not Greggy.

 

I thought it quite odd...some missing quotation marks there...

 

To Greggy:

 

Still didn't answer my question...

 

Jim

[greggy]

Jim, the 2nd quote was a continuation of the first. Steve said them both, not Greggy.

 

I thought it quite odd...some missing quotation marks there...

 

To Greggy:

 

Still didn't answer my question...

 

Jim

What question? Shouldn't you asking Tracey the question? Plus, he did make a comment earlier in this thread.

[awe4one]

[What question? Shouldn't you asking Tracey the question?

 

Look back...my question was originally a response directly to Tracey's post...everyone else has decided to jump in with their opinions and non-answers...

 

Jim

[nearmint]

The question of whether Tracey guarantees that pressing a book will not result in a PLOD is a valid one. Hopefully, he'll pipe in with an answer in the AM.

[FFB]

If the book is not taken apart and the pressing is not done correctly (too much humidity, heat, and/or pressure) the resulting damage done to the book is graded as a defect or set of defects and the book is downgraded accordingly into a BLUE label slab.

 

IE Amateur pressing...

 

Not surprisingly you're completely missing the point of my question. I'm not here to argue with you once again.

 

Will Eclipse guarantee the book will not get a PLOD for pressing (or the effects of pressing if you want to drill that far down)? Steve said they will give PLODs for amateur pressing. Tracey Heft is a professional comics restorer from what I gather. Is he willing to guarantee his pressing work will not get PLODed? Sensible and simple question...

 

Jim

 

Jim, you have a reading comprehension problem and an apparent memory disorder.

 

Per Steve Borock's numerous prior posts:

 

Professional NDP: CGC can't tell and no PLOD is given even if they can tell.

 

Amateur NDP: CGC might be able to tell. No PLOD given even if they can tell. Book is downgraded for any damage caused by unprofessional application of heat, humidity, and/or pressure to the book.

 

Disassembly pressing (amateur or professional): PLOD.

 

If you have any evidence that Steve Borock has ever said anything to the contrary, post it. In the meantime, spare me your condescending comments re my "missing the point" of your inane posts.

 

Tracey is not taking the books apart. He does not guarantee PLOD or non-PLOD because he's not checking the books for restoration. He doesn't make the PLOD or non-PLOD determination at CGC, so how could he guarantee that his NDP technique will not result in a PLOD? What if CGC changes its stance tomorrow on the issue?

 

The thing that really makes me laugh is that you aren't going to send him any books anyway because you're an anti-pressing Nazi. So why don't you just sit this one out instead of feigning concern about all of the books that you're not going to send him?

[awe4one]

In the meantime, spare me your condescending comments re my "missing the point" of your inane posts.

 

You are...and unless you've become Tracey's spokeman on the matter, I'd shut up...you've already made enough of a fool of yourself...

 

The question was never directed at you yet you feel the urge to comment and rant on in the absense of answering the question. Now listen carefully and if you don't get it this time, I have to suspect all you're doing is trolling or have a serious "me too" complex...Tracey says he won't guarantee CGC won't give a PLOD for restoration but does that apply to his pressing technique as well?

 

Steve has said "amateur pressing" would get PLOD without disassembly just not in all cases. Re-read Greggy's post if you need a refresher. I don't have the time to rehash posts because you missed it the first time...

 

And as to your final lame attempt at a jab...as you've probably aware I'm very interested in the topic. As a long time collector, pressing and the manipulation of comics in the marketplace is a great concern. If pressing becomes a standard norm in the hobby, it's a great paradigm shift that affects all back issue collectors not just one's that use the service. Just because I wouldn't necessarily press comics doesn't mean I don't have to right to speak or ask questions about it...

 

Jim

[FFB]

You are...and unless you've become Tracey's spokeman on the matter, I'd shut up...you've already made enough of a fool of yourself...

 

The question was never directed at you yet you feel the urge to comment and rant on in the absense of answering the question. Now listen carefully and if you don't get it this time, I have to suspect all you're doing is trolling or have a serious "me too" complex...Tracey says he won't guarantee CGC won't give a PLOD for restoration but does that apply to his pressing technique as well?

 

Steve has said "amateur pressing" would get PLOD without disassembly just not in all cases. Re-read Greggy's post if you need a refresher. I don't have the time to rehash posts because you missed it the first time...

 

And as to your final lame attempt at a jab...as you've probably aware I'm very interested in the topic. As a long time collector, pressing and the manipulation of comics in the marketplace is a great concern. If pressing becomes a standard norm in the hobby, it's a great paradigm shift that affects all back issue collectors not just one's that use the service. Just because I wouldn't necessarily press comics doesn't mean I don't have to right to speak or ask questions about it...

 

Jim

 

Show me one book with "pressing" noted as the only restoration noted on the label. You can't. They don't exist. Steve's prior comment referred to by Greggy does not say that they label books that they suspect have only been pressed. He said they labeled books as "cleaned and pressed" when someone doing an amateur press job made a mess out of a book (probably from applying too much humidity during the press job, which would look like an aqueous wash gone wrong). Hence the CLEANED AND PRESSED notation on the label, and the submitter called to complain that the book had only been pressed, not cleaned. If you had the slightest idea what you were talking about, you'd have understood that the first two times Steve's comment was directed at you.

 

But you're right, I should stay out of your impending battle with Tracey over his pressing service. I can't wait to see it, actually. This should be good.

[awe4one]

But you're right, I should stay out of your impending battle with Tracey over his pressing service. I can't wait to see it, actually. This should be good.

 

No one said there's going to be a battle...that's you pulling out the poms-poms. I just wanted an answer to the question...you're the one who's decided to argue the point without an answer...

 

Again...not surprising...

 

Jim

[Newerthannew]

Hi everyone!

 

I don't watch these boards every minute of the day (maybe I should start?) so this response needs to cover a lot of bases.

 

It starts with:

 

If a book does receive a plod (purple label of death) guess I can safely say that it will not be for any pressing work that I do...

 

So you'll compensate those that get a PLOD because of the pressing? Steve has thrown the "profeesional pressing" statement around a bit. If it didn't meet this criteria (whatever that is), a PLOD would be given. Are you willing to guarantee that this won't after you've performed the pressing?

 

 

Since it has yet to happen, I guess time will tell what I will/will not do. However, since my policy on my work (and my practices when selling) has always been (and we are talking many, many years now) make the customer happy I don't see why I wouldn't just buy the book from the customer - IF it gets a purple label due to anything I've done. Seems reasonable to me. What do other people guarantee?

 

(Of course, now that I am thinking about it - that raises all sorts of questions. Since I am not submitting the book directly from my studio for grading, I can't begin to imagine all the things that could take place between here and there and the home of the owner - after I have pressed a book. How do I know it's the same book? How do I know it hasn't been pressed further by the owner, etc, etc, etc.).

 

Next was this post:

Hi Trace, thnx for your thoughts. Since most of the questions you answered were in response to my post. I will try to clarify a bit more what I meant with my statements..

 

 

If the work I did for clients over the last 5 years had looked like "a popular breakfast food", then I really don't think I should be offering a service to the general public.

 

 

Like I said in my post.. this was only a guess on my part.. not meant to be an attack on the quality of your work. I was merely quessing that for the $20 fee you charge was on the low end of what you would normally charge for other types of more involved/invasive pressing. And even when done correctly.. dry flat pressing an already HG book..does give the books a more crisp, flat squashed look.

 

I didn't take it as an attack. Like I said, I got a chuckle out the comment. And you are right, $20 is on the low end of what I normally charge for other more involved types of work. Other types of more involved work (like opening the staples, pressing the folios, reassembly of the book) is at my regular studio rates. And for those who are wondering, I do not offer this as a separate option outside of a larger restoration approach. So, to make this as clear as one can on a message board: I do not take books apart to press them unless you are having something else on the book restored (like color-breaking creases, pieces replaced, etc).

 

I didn't really think anything more needed to be said. For $20.00, whatever I can do to improve the condition of any submissions is what I am prepared to do. Even if I need to introduce heat or humidity into the fibers of the paper, it doesn't take that long to accomplish! For $20 each, I will press your books to the best of my abilities.

I understand it does not take that long to do this process, I just meant for the $20 flat fee I was wondering what/how many methods you will employ to achieve the desired results?

I had just hoped for more clarification.. and or more education about what exactly would be done to the books before a person submits them.

 

I will receive your books, press them as they need (so yes, I might introduce a level of humidity, press a book 5 times to get that particular crease out, whatever) and hopefully give you back a product that you will be pleased with.

 

Due to the nature of pressing and grading, we cannot guarantee that an improvement will be made or that any defects will be removed completely, nor can we guarantee that your book will receive an unrestored label if sent to a 3d party grading company for grading!

 

How can I guarantee that a book will be better than it was? I have had customers who have thought their books were 9.4's when I thought they were 7.0's. Until the book is actually graded by CGC it could anything!!!! Only CGC can say what a book is/isn't going to grade as. It would be foolish of me to say that I guarantee that your 9.4 is going to become a 9.6, when it has just as likely a chance of staying a 9.4 or becoing a 9.2 based on whatever criteria they use! All I can say with any certainty is, that I am fairly certain I will make an improvement and that most defects will either be eliminated or reduced in severity.

 

As for guaranteeing that a book will not receive an unrestored label, I'm not checking books for trimming, color-touch, etc, etc. That's a separate service at my regular rates. If a book does receive a plod (purple label of death) guess I can safely say that it will not be for any pressing work that I do...

Trace.. I know you cannot guarantee any improvement to the books, or can you help it if a book was restored before it is submitted to you. that was not my expectation.. or point.

 

Sorry, thought it was. But it did allow me an opportunity to think about what I wrote and what I meant, so thanks for that.

 

I was commenting about a book submitted to 3rd party grading company not being given a PLOD.. I took this statement..nor can we guarantee that your book will receive an unrestored label if sent to a 3d party grading company for grading as you saying.. AFTER you do your work.. you cannot say for sure if CGC will .. or will not deem the pressing work done as resto..or not.

But I now see you have said you can safely say the books you press will not come back as restored no matter what method of pressing you employ. Even if you have to disassemble the book?

IF I were to disassemble a book just for pressing, I would hope that CGC or whoever is grading the book, is able to catch that the staples were manipulated and the book pressed then reassembled. I'm good, but probably not good enough to get things by a trained eye - so I don't offer it outside of further restoration.

 

That begs a question. Are there others out there who are disassembling books, pressing (maybe cleaning), putting them back together and getting blue labels? IF there are, then doesn't that open a really big can of worms?

 

then it was asked:

 

So I assume disassembly pressing will not be covered under the $20 fee then?

 

This post should answer that question.

 

next question:

 

Zipper;

 

Very valid question here considering the significant difference in price between the two. Another question here is whether Tracey's $20 fee covers all books including big ticket dollar books.

Sure. Why not? A book is a book, is a book. I think the most valuable thing I learned while taking my courses in Art Conservation was to look at an item as nothing more than the sum of its parts. This comes in handy when you are working on 14th century one-of-a-kind maps covered in gold and copper ink that are hand-colored and worth more than a million dollars each. If I start to think of an item as a million-dollar map, then I'm going to get nervous and make a mistake that I'm going to regret (not to mention that I could forever change history by destroying some key piece of information). Same is true if you hand me an Action 1 or a Spawn 1. They are both a collection of ground-wood pulp paper that is saddled stitched with a metallic bar containing 4 separate ink layer printing. The only real difference between the two is, what does each book need done.

 

So, $20.00 flat fee is $20.00 flat fee. I welcome your Detective 1's, your Detective 27's, your Superman 232's, your Spawn 1's, etc, etc, etc.

 

I find it difficult to imagine the same service being performed by Tracey for $20 when Matt is charging a significant percentage of the increase in fair market value of a book for the suppossedly same job.

 

Hmmm....puzzling why Tracey would charge only $20 while Matt can get away with charging thousands of dollars if the right book comes along.

 

Not really puzzling is it? Why do I charge $20.00? Because that is all I need to charge. Why does anyone (Matt, perhaps Chris F when he gets going) charge a significant percentage of the increase in fair market value of a book for the supposedly same job? Someone has got to ask them (and anyone who operates that way) that question, I can only guess at an answer.

 

then, it was asked by awe4one:

 

Will Eclipse guarantee the book will not get a PLOD for pressing (or the effects of pressing if you want to drill that far down)? Steve said they will give PLODs for amateur pressing. Tracey Heft is a professional comics restorer from what I gather. Is he willing to guarantee his pressing work will not get PLODed? Sensible and simple question...

 

Nope. I won't guarantee that a book will not get a PLOD for pressing or for my pressing work, 'cause anything can happen. I can't guess at what any grading company will or will not do, much less begin to guess at what they consider restoration or not restoration. If it happens that a book is given a PLOD and labeled that it has been pressed (because, as I've stated in 5 years of doing this type of work I've yet to get a PLOD for the pressing I did or have done) then I will do what I can to make my customers happy, whatever that involves - even if it means buying the book. Seems like the reasonable thing to do and if you want to call that a guarantee, that's cool. Once again, what do other people who press guarantee?

 

then FFB wrote:

 

Tracey is not taking the books apart. He does not guarantee PLOD or non-PLOD because he's not checking the books for restoration. He doesn't make the PLOD or non-PLOD determination at CGC, so how could he guarantee that his NDP technique will not result in a PLOD? What if CGC changes its stance tomorrow on the issue?

 

Which pretty much states what I just wrote, so thanks for that.

 

So. Last night, I thought about my "guarantee" section and decided it was too blunt to the point of causing concern. So, I rewrote it:

 

Pressing may not completely remove all defects. We do our best to improve the books received, but their initial condition will influence their final results.

 

In addition, any future evaluation by any third-party grading service is not in any part the responsibility of Eclipse Paper Conservation. A third-party finding of restoration or a grade lower than anticipated is a possibility.

 

Seem reasonable?

 

Thanks for the comments, everyone.

 

Tracey Heft

www.eclipsepaper.com

NOW PRESSING: www.eclipsepaper.com/pressing.htm

[Ze-man]

Tracey, thanks for taking the time to re address my many questions in your above post.

It is hard sometimes to convey ones thoughts, and intent on a message board.

I appreciate you taking the time to wade through all of this and hitting on the pertinent points in turn.

 

Sounds like it was benifitial for all of us.. as it allows you to retool, rethink how some things might be worded on your website. And we got a peek at what will be going on when you press comics submitted to you.

 

Good luck

 

Kenny

 

Ze-

[awe4one]

Nope. I won't guarantee that a book will not get a PLOD for pressing or for my pressing work, 'cause anything can happen. I can't guess at what any grading company will or will not do, much less begin to guess at what they consider restoration or not restoration. If it happens that a book is given a PLOD and labeled that it has been pressed (because, as I've stated in 5 years of doing this type of work I've yet to get a PLOD for the pressing I did or have done) then I will do what I can to make my customers happy, whatever that involves - even if it means buying the book. Seems like the reasonable thing to do and if you want to call that a guarantee, that's cool. Once again, what do other people who press guarantee?

 

Tracey--Thanks for the clear answer to my question though it took a rather circuitous route through the expected blowhards to get there. I may not like act of pressing making it's rounds in the hobby but can't begrudge those like you who could benefit if it occurs and aren't hiding the fact from collectors...

 

Now if you start working under the CCG umbrella...that's an entirely different story...

 

Jim

[VintageComics]

Really great thread guys...Got a question...is there really any difference between a book that was naturally pressed over time using gravity and a flat surface (like some pedigrees) or the NDP method we have been discussing? In my opinion there is not. It is no wonder CGC would not consider labelling a pressed book with a PLOD. It is a natural process, as opposed to placing colour on a book, or dis-assembling a book for restorative purposes. Now if I can get my Piano and two marble slabs working, I could press books for $10 each.....

[skybolt]

Arty lists a notation of "very minor amount of glue on cover" on the original 8.5 slab. Does CGC grade down for such a defect? Is it possible that a previous owner cracked the slab, had the glue removed professionally, then resubbed the book without having it pressed?

 

I recently purchased several GA books from Metro that were graded as 8.0's. Two of the books came back from CGC with a blue label, 7.0 grade with very small amount of glue on front cover. The rest of the 8.0's came back as 7.5 and 8.0. Normally, I would say that grading is subjective, and that CGC has a different scale than other dealers. However, in this case, the two books in question were at least 8.0's and were definitely graded down for the glue. I do believe that since these two books were given a blue label, CGC decided to drop the grade by a full 1.0 point to account for the glue on the front cover. I have no doubt that if the glue was removed, the books would be graded as 8.0's.

 

As far as dis-assembling a book, pressing it, and making sure the staples are put back in the same place to get it by CGC, really worries me. I'm not overly concerned with staples being cleaned, but I am worried about the inside pages being married with other books. I'm sure something like is already being done or tried by some shadey characters out there.

[FFB]

Nope. I won't guarantee that a book will not get a PLOD for pressing or for my pressing work, 'cause anything can happen. I can't guess at what any grading company will or will not do, much less begin to guess at what they consider restoration or not restoration. If it happens that a book is given a PLOD and labeled that it has been pressed (because, as I've stated in 5 years of doing this type of work I've yet to get a PLOD for the pressing I did or have done) then I will do what I can to make my customers happy, whatever that involves - even if it means buying the book. Seems like the reasonable thing to do and if you want to call that a guarantee, that's cool. Once again, what do other people who press guarantee?

 

Tracey--Thanks for the clear answer to my question though it took a rather circuitous route through the expected blowhards to get there. I may not like act of pressing making it's rounds in the hobby but can't begrudge those like you who could benefit if it occurs and aren't hiding the fact from collectors...

 

Now if you start working under the CCG umbrella...that's an entirely different story...

 

Jim

 

"Blowhards."

 

"Hello, pot? It's kettle. Just wanted to tell you you're black."

 

By the way, did you note that the "blowhard" answers I gave you before were correct? Or did your ego get in the way of your brain processing that fact?

[Illiterati-migration]

Nope. I won't guarantee that a book will not get a PLOD for pressing or for my pressing work, 'cause anything can happen. I can't guess at what any grading company will or will not do, much less begin to guess at what they consider restoration or not restoration. If it happens that a book is given a PLOD and labeled that it has been pressed (because, as I've stated in 5 years of doing this type of work I've yet to get a PLOD for the pressing I did or have done) then I will do what I can to make my customers happy, whatever that involves - even if it means buying the book. Seems like the reasonable thing to do and if you want to call that a guarantee, that's cool. Once again, what do other people who press guarantee?

 

Tracey--Thanks for the clear answer to my question though it took a rather circuitous route through the expected blowhards to get there. I may not like act of pressing making it's rounds in the hobby but can't begrudge those like you who could benefit if it occurs and aren't hiding the fact from collectors...

 

Now if you start working under the CCG umbrella...that's an entirely different story...

 

Jim

 

"Blowhards."

 

"Hello, pot? It's kettle. Just wanted to tell you you're black."

 

By the way, did you note that the "blowhard" answers I gave you before were correct? Or did your ego get in the way of your brain processing that fact?

 

 

LIFE AS GREGGY

Act 1

 

Greggy: (Approaching with great caution and temerity.)

Er... hi. I heard that someone was handing out blowhards around here? I have four Canadian pesos and a 2-for-1 coupon to the Sizzler. How much will that get me?

 

End Act 1

[awe4one]

By the way, did you note that the "blowhard" answers I gave you before were correct? Or did your ego get in the way of your brain processing that fact?

 

No...I'll just take answers from somone with the facts and can answer the question authoritatively than your long winded guesses...

 

Jim

[FFB]

By the way, did you note that the "blowhard" answers I gave you before were correct? Or did your ego get in the way of your brain processing that fact?

 

No...I'll just take answers from somone with the facts and can answer the question authoritatively than your long winded guesses...

 

Jim

 

Riiiiiight. Why don't you just be honest for once and admit that your only purpose in asking your loaded questions initially was to try to take a shot at Tracey because you're mad that he's making the pressing service more widely available and affordable? Since you're not ever going to send him any books to press, it isn't like the information would have been of any use to you, would it?

[garthgantu]

I'm the furthest thing from a proponent of pressing, but I do appreciate Tracy's candor. The fact that he's making pressing more available/accessible to the average collector is also a potential positive. At the least, it means that the practice will no longer be done primarily by dealers and deep-pocketed, active flippers, Heritage employees, etc.

 

Further, it may wake some people up who previously believed this was a very minor activity happening to a handful of books. At $20 per, you have to believe Tracy will have more business than he can handle...