Poor grading of Raw Books in the Sales Forum!

[Doktor]

I think it just comes down to some people naturally overgrade their own stuff & undergrade everyone else's stuff. They have a connection to their copies, even if it's nothing more than "they're mine" and naturally see them as superior to an identical copy that someone else might slap on the table next to it. There's always a natural inclination to drift away from being able to objectively look at a thing & evaluate it when you've got a stake in the outcome of that evaluation.

 

Some people are able to control that inclination & others are less able to or completely unable to.

[ChasingKingKirby]

Grading is definitely "off" in general. Not eBay "off", but off. I appreciate those that post the books in PGM before selling them.

[Mike's Rack]

 

That's a very real problem; flatbed scanners can obscure the severity of a spine roll and other things that are not readily apparent.

 

That is where using a camera is a much easier/more accurate way to assess a book's condition.

 

For what my opinion is worth, I actually prefer scans. I think they provide a better -- sometimes harsher* -- representation of the book. Cameras tend to introduce a perspective that can be distorting depending upon the camera angle.

 

However, if a book has dents and surface indentations, then an added photo would capture this where a scan would not.

 

Of course, it never hurts to actually write a description of hidden defects when putting the book up for sale.

 

 

*I have a few books that look better in hand than in my scans -- hence that phrase popping up occasionally in people's sales threads.

 

 

The harsher representation, the better.

 

We're on the same page there.

 

However, virtually any (and all) books will have minor surface indentations or non color breaking spine tics that a scanner will eiher not show, or the issues will be partially mitigated due to the nature of the angle of a flatbed scanner....and if it is a silver book with spine roll, cover wrinking etc, the lid of the scanner somewhat acts as a mask for those defects due to the lid temporarily "pressing out" those defects from view

 

Or say, a minor amount of color flecking to very minute spine seperation ( think 98% of the copies of Preacher # 1 or Sandman # 1, that are not slabbed 9.8's will have this defect, in varying degrees) that a flatbed scanner will not portray as clearly as a good set of pics will.

 

Here's a CGC 9.2 Preacher # 1 to help illustrate my point. ...with a dozen pics that I took.

This 9.2 copy's color flecking along portions of the spine would not be nearly as readily apparent, if I had scanned the book.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/201411734006?ssPageName=STRK:MESOX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1561.l2649

 

 

Secondly.....by a "good set of pics", I mean a....dozen pics or so.Not just one pic from a certain angle via a camera, which would be deceiving. (or too forgiving).

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/201415381390?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649&rmvSB=true

 

That's pretty much as clear a representation as possible, although adding a second close up of the tear on the FC is something that I should do to sell the book quicker.

 

 

 

I appreciate your efforts to to inform your buyers on the grade of a book as best you can. However, a photo can never represent a book as well as a scan. It may work ok for books in the $100 range, but once you start selling books in the four and five figure range, it would behoove you to invest in a scanner. A ten year old high-end scanner, properly calibrated will provide a much better image than any hand held camera or even tripod mounted camera. It's more a matter of physics than technology. A camera will never take images as sharp as a scanner because it is further away and any slight vibrations will be magnified and obscure the fine details that would be apparent in a scan. You can always take a photo of things (spine rolls etc.) that don't show up in the scan but not vice versa unless you have a good scanner.

 

When I see people selling high dollar books with a photo instead of a scan I think one of two things: 1. They don't know what they are doing; or 2. They are trying to hide something. Either way, I'm less likely to buy from them.

[romanheart]

I think it depends on the quality of the scan or photo. Even some smartphone pics have pretty good resolution/size to judge from.

[Mike's Rack]

I think it depends on the quality of the scan or photo. Even some smartphone pics have pretty good resolution/size to judge from.

True, I'm only referring to high quality scans for high dollar books. On lower priced stuff, good photos are often adequate, however I always prefer a scan.

[Robot Man]

I recently bought my first book on the boards. When I got it, it had a severe problem. I contacted the seller and he told me to keep it and refunded my full purchase price. Just doesn't get any better than that.

 

I recently listed some books for sale (my first time). I did it like I would do it on Feebay. I had large pictures of front and back and noted any defects that couldn't be seen as well as paper quality. I can't ever remember having a problem with a buyer unless I just totally missed something and really can't remember the last time I did.

 

I always hesitate to put an actual letter or number grade on a book. I have been collecting since the dawn of time and feel I am a FAIR grader. I don't want to mislead the buyer or cheat myself. Since CGC does not list their grading criteria I use Overstreet standards which are very clear. I know how easy it is to disagree on a hard grade so I avoid the opportunity.

 

You don't supply a letter grade, so how do you determine your selling price?

 

40 years of selling comics and a dart board.

[namisgr]

However, a photo can never represent a book as well as a scan. It may work ok for books in the $100 range, but once you start selling books in the four and five figure range, it would behoove you to invest in a scanner.

 

Like photographs, scans provide only partial information on the detailed condition of a comic. The best information of all comes from a detailed description. How flat are the front and back covers? What is the spine, edge, and corner wear like? How many spine stress lines are there, how many corner creases, and how long is each one? How bright are the colors and gloss? Are the covers clean? How is the cover wrap both front-to-back and top-to-bottom? What is the page quality? How bright are the interior covers? Where are the staples located, and do they show any discoloration or rust? Are there any 'production' defects? Any other marks or defects?

 

Surprisingly few people ask me for detailed descriptions from comics offered in sales threads, but it's something that the very best dealers have used in their mail order businesses for long before both CGC and scanner technology came along, and in my opinion ought to be used a lot more often by buyers and sellers alike.

[Buzzetta]

I don't think that anyone mentioned the following....

 

There is an inherent problem of distrust when confronted about the grade of a book. There is the fear that the person debating the grade is doing so to talk down the book in order to get a better deal.

 

It is not like this has not happened before both at shows and on these very boards. One person made a buying and selling career out of it and is no longer here.

 

This is why one single person debating a grade does not always work. A few people should message the seller if they notice something.

 

However, for high value books it does not hurt to have them graded. Ritchie Munchin and a few others will dispute that. I respect their decision but disagree with it as I am lately seeing some of the best dealers and auction houses miss things.

 

I submitted around 30 books since January and I am getting a book back this week that I won raw at auction that was trimmed. I had another book from another auction house come back with a married cover (that one I am keeping because of the book.)

 

BTW - The number of doctored GA books is getting ridiculous. What the hell did all of you old time dealers do to them in the 70's and 80's?

[Mike's Rack]

However, a photo can never represent a book as well as a scan. It may work ok for books in the $100 range, but once you start selling books in the four and five figure range, it would behoove you to invest in a scanner.

 

Like photographs, scans provide only partial information on the detailed condition of a comic. The best information of all comes from a detailed description. How flat are the front and back covers? What is the spine, edge, and corner wear like? How many spine stress lines are there, how many corner creases, and how long is each one? How bright are the colors and gloss? Are the covers clean? How is the cover wrap both front-to-back and top-to-bottom? What is the page quality? How bright are the interior covers? Where are the staples located, and do they show any discoloration or rust? Are there any 'production' defects? Any other marks or defects?

 

Surprisingly few people ask me for detailed descriptions from comics offered in sales threads, but it's something that the very best dealers have used in their mail order businesses for long before both CGC and scanner technology came along, and in my opinion ought to be used a lot more often by buyers and sellers alike.

I agree, I wasn't meaning to suggest that one rely on the scan exclusively.

[zosocane]

What bothers me most on the sales forum isn't the grading, it's two other things:

 

1. Ungraded Listings. The seller is in the best position, having the book in hand, to assign a grade. I have no problem with the seller adding a qualifier such as "grading is inherently subjective and I'm no expert and blah blah blah". But for crying out loud, put a grade down.

 

2. Ridiculously High List Prices. This has gotten noticeably worse. I appreciate that sometimes a seller high balls the list price to serve as leverage to come down in a negotiation, but asking multiples over GPA for non-rare books is getting tiresome. Some new Board members who don't comment on the non-sales fora come here to troll for uninformed buyers, hopefully score a way above-market price, and keep the 10% they would have lost on FeeBay. I appreciate that the market decides these things, but I think as Boardies we owe it to each other to play fair and treat others the way we want to be treated. FeeBay is available for the greed-minded.

[drbanner]

Time to start calling people out and naming names!

[FineCollector]

BTW - The number of doctored GA books is getting ridiculous. What the hell did all of you old time dealers do to them in the 70's and 80's?

 

If they came from north of the border, our buddy Gerry from Montreal was said to have "cleaned up" a lot of books, and I still feel hesitant when I look at his stuff, rightly or not. I'm sure it was the thing to do in the 80s.

[Darkowl]

since everyone seems to be going in one direction on this thread I'll go the other way

 

It is possible that some books look better in hand than in the scan and hence the grade.

 

I see plenty of books graded correctly, plenty undergraded and plenty overgraded.

 

I also see plenty of books overpriced, underpriced and priced right.

 

Why this bothers people so much I have no idea. Plenty of other things to expend that money energy on.

 

 

This

[lizards2]

Time to start calling people out and naming names!

[lizards2]

since everyone seems to be going in one direction on this thread I'll go the other way

 

It is possible that some books look better in hand than in the scan and hence the grade.

 

I see plenty of books graded correctly, plenty undergraded and plenty overgraded.

 

I also see plenty of books overpriced, underpriced and priced right.

 

Why this bothers people so much I have no idea. Plenty of other things to expend that money energy on.

 

 

This

 

I have bought some books from one seller who appears to grade by the scan. And sometimes scanned in a bag. Inevitably, most books from this seller arrive in much better condition than advertised. Scans do sometimes accentuate defects, rather than hide them.

 

The time I remember best was "looks NM but scratches on FC" When the book came in, the scratches were on the bag, and the book was dead NM.

[Meeklo]

I think I undergrade mine and that's why I can move any. If I see some small slight creasing, I've been calling it VF/NM…it would actually probably grade around 9.2 to a 9.4.

 

I see someone sell a X-Men #134 for $40 bucks and mine is in better condition and I'm asking less.

[vaillant]

I think I undergrade mine and that's why I can move any. If I see some small slight creasing, I've been calling it VF/NM…it would actually probably grade around 9.2 to a 9.4.

 

I see someone sell a X-Men #134 for $40 bucks and mine is in better condition and I'm asking less.

It takes some time to adjust your grading skills, especially if you are trying to average "halfway" between CGC and Overstreet (as I do).

The few ones I bought from you raw were accurately graded. (thumbs u

[musicmeta]

Sorry in advance for the rant.

 

I feel that this has been an issue for a while. I've had a number of PM discussions where we make fun of the grading skills of a number of our members.

 

The quality of grading used to be much better. It's come to the point where I find I'm buying fewer raw books and will only buy from a few select sellers.

 

I used to be able to provide constructive feedback in the sales thread, but that practice is now frowned upon. I would hate to see a newbie get taken advantage of...

 

What to do?

 

 

Why not PM the seller instead of others to talk about the sellers lack of grading ability? If it were me, I would appreciate a heads up that I missed something or overgraded something rather than have people talk about behind my back in PM.

 

You know what I would REALLY like to see... imagine if someone PM'd someone that they undergraded a book.

 

As a recent seller on these boards, I would appreciate a buyer letting me know that I overgraded a book. I try to purposely undergrade books and price them reasonably so they do sell. I absolutely would hate knowing I sent out a comic that someone was not happy with.

 

Absolutely send out a PM and let the seller know.

 

Yes, same here. If I over graded a book, missed something, just let me know and I will make it right.

I try to grade accurately not under grade or over grade.

[Sqeggs]

I recently bought my first book on the boards. When I got it, it had a severe problem. I contacted the seller and he told me to keep it and refunded my full purchase price. Just doesn't get any better than that.

 

I recently listed some books for sale (my first time). I did it like I would do it on Feebay. I had large pictures of front and back and noted any defects that couldn't be seen as well as paper quality. I can't ever remember having a problem with a buyer unless I just totally missed something and really can't remember the last time I did.

 

I always hesitate to put an actual letter or number grade on a book. I have been collecting since the dawn of time and feel I am a FAIR grader. I don't want to mislead the buyer or cheat myself. Since CGC does not list their grading criteria I use Overstreet standards which are very clear. I know how easy it is to disagree on a hard grade so I avoid the opportunity.

 

You don't supply a letter grade, so how do you determine your selling price?

 

40 years of selling comics and a dart board.

 

Some sellers appear to have one year of experience and use 40 dartboards.

[Robot Man]

So True!

 

I don't really know what the big deal is. I see stuff graded fine that looks vg at best in a photo. It doesn't bother me, I just pass and move on. If it is priced higher than what I want to pay, I just move on. I am not necessarily a high grade collector but when I do want something high grade I buy a slab.

 

I think the whining comes from flippers who are hoping to snag an undergraded book they can "maximize" with a press and make a few bucks. Nothing wrong with that, just don't be disapointed if you are buying with rose colored glasses. If you disagree with a grade in a good photo or have any hesitation, just pass. There's always other deals out there.