November 2015 Heritage Signature Auction Thread 1 1

[Lago32]

I like the GL/GA at least 2x as much by artist and composition, so it seems to make sense, especially since GL/GA #76 is a stronger book than Amazing Spider-Man #98 as a published comic book too, in many collector's eyes.

 

I think the GL #76 price was all about the "key" issue/historical significance of the book to comics history. Adams may be the superior artist to Kane, but, c'mon, everything about the ASM #98 cover - to me, one of the very best of the entire run - blows the GL #76 cover away. The latter is one of those covers that just doesn't show very well in B&W, and it's far from Adams' best drawn work (it's not even my favorite cover from that run - I like the shocking #85 better). Its value has little to do with its own artistic quality vs. the significance of the book as it fits into Adams' legacy. And, remember, the bidding almost stalled out at $260K hammer - I suspect that the rest of the bidding (and possibly even the bidding up to that point) was really just two people. Is that really what the cover's worth, both absolutely and relative to the ASM #98? Who can say for sure.

 

Personally, I would take the Spidey cover any day and twice on Sunday over the GL one - it's one of my favorite covers and issues from the entire ASM run.

 

I think we are getting into pretty solid subjective territory here. I know a ton of guys that would echo almost the exact same sentiments but would substitute the GL76 cover for the ASM98. You have to admit Gene that you are a big Spidey guy and have huge nostalgia for that particular cover. And while I do like the ASM98 cover a lot (and appreciate why many love it), at the end of the day, for me, I see an upside-down/from-the-back shot of Spidey that is pretty standard Kane for the era. As such, for me as a huge Adams fan, it pales in comparison to the GL76 both artistically* AND in significance for both comic pop culture AND as it relates to the artist's canon of work.

 

*The fact that GL's left hand looks the face-hugger from Alien aside of course...

 

 

[delekkerste]

I think we are getting into pretty solid subjective territory here. I know a ton of guys that would echo almost the exact same sentiments but would substitute the GL76 cover for the ASM98. You have to admit Gene that you are a big Spidey guy and have huge nostalgia for that particular cover. And while I do like the ASM98 cover a lot (and appreciate why many love it), at the end of the day, for me, I see an upside-down/from-the-back shot of Spidey that is pretty standard Kane for the era. As such, for me as a huge Adams fan, it pales in comparison to the GL76 both artistically* AND in significance for both comic pop culture AND as it relates to the artist's canon of work.

 

*The fact that GL's left hand looks the face-hugger from Alien aside of course...

 

 

I think the composition on the ASM 98 is exceptional - much better than standard Kane for the era. The GL 76 cover is just way too sparse for my liking - it loses a ton in B&W vs. the published cover, whereas the Spidey cover is dripping with some of Giacoia's best inks. Hanging on a wall, the ASM cover would display a lot, lot better. Unless your audience is Albert Moy, Scott Williams, yourself and tth2.

 

I know you're an Adams guy, Mike, but, from a purely composition/content/aesthetic basis, this cover isn't even remotely close to his best. Wonky anatomy, way too much blank space...it's all about the significance of the book itself. If this was the cover to GL #77 and another cover had kicked off the run, the for this cover would be a lot, lot less than it is.

[batman_fan]

No one is answering my query about the Bruce Timm market. I'm not trying to be snarky at all, I think Timm is talented. But based on this result, 8300. for an average looking panel page it seems like he's hotter than Kirby or Toth. Is Batman Adventures an important book now?

 

I will try to answer your question from my perspective. There is a decent sized group of collectors of the Batman Animated comic series artwork (I am one of them). Bruce Timm is THE artist for the series and there are quite a few Bruce Timm collectors as well. With both of these group in play for this piece, I guess two decided it was a must have. Timm Batman stuff doesn't come up often. That said, the price is about 3x what I would have guessed.

[r100comics]

for you guys

 

Color guides can sell for a lot of money.....

 

I'm not surprised by the hammer price on the GL #76 as there are more and more people looking for Silver & Bronze Age guides (esp key issues) and the prices keep going up.

 

I've sold Byrne X-Men covers for $2k and Heritage sold 15 ASM #121 pages for almost $20k.

 

There is a correlation that the higher the value of the OA the higher the value of it's color guides. 2% of the OA value is a good rule of thumb for the top pieces but this can go up to 50% on Modern OA.

 

Everyone's always asking what to invest in for the future and how to buy ahead of the curve, well the blanket incredulity at this color guide sale is a pretty big hint.

 

I dunno. Sounds like something I'd read from somebody with a lot of color guides for sale. I don't know you, but did I nail it?

 

I've focussed much more on buying color guides than selling them this year and have had WTB threads running here on the boards and elsewhere.

 

 

 

My issue with color guides is Authenticity.

 

Why cant any whack job with a xerox machine just crank them out?

 

Is there not a whole market for these fictions on ebay?

 

Seems owning would be an authenticating nightmare.

 

The fakes you're thinking of are proofs & transparencies and I agree 99% of the ones on Ebay played no part in the making of those comics.

 

Color guides are different being hand-painted using specific dyes and paper, and often having color codes and notations that would be difficult to fake. They are also made from a copy of the artwork so you can often match up distinguishing marks you see on the original art to the guide to help provenance.

 

Like original art though it's all about educating yourself and buying from reputable sources.

 

 

 

 

 

[Bronty]

If the ASM 98 was Romita it would have probably gone for more. The limiting factor on this piece in retrospect seems to be that it was Kane. I do believe this is the highest $ amount ever paid for any Kane. And Yes, I would take the 98 over the GL any day of the week, as well.

 

I don't buy that at all

 

It got a good price and IMO a fair valuation relative to ASM 121 cover that sold recently as well.

 

Not every swing at the plate has to be a grand slam.

 

No way to prove a counterfactual.

 

 

Did Herb Trimpe hurt the hulk 180 page?

 

The more key the content the less the artist matters.

 

 

 

[Lago32]

I think we are getting into pretty solid subjective territory here. I know a ton of guys that would echo almost the exact same sentiments but would substitute the GL76 cover for the ASM98. You have to admit Gene that you are a big Spidey guy and have huge nostalgia for that particular cover. And while I do like the ASM98 cover a lot (and appreciate why many love it), at the end of the day, for me, I see an upside-down/from-the-back shot of Spidey that is pretty standard Kane for the era. As such, for me as a huge Adams fan, it pales in comparison to the GL76 both artistically* AND in significance for both comic pop culture AND as it relates to the artist's canon of work.

 

*The fact that GL's left hand looks the face-hugger from Alien aside of course...

 

 

I think the composition on the ASM 98 is exceptional - much better than standard Kane for the era. The GL 76 cover is just way too sparse for my liking - it loses a ton in B&W vs. the published cover, whereas the Spidey cover is dripping with some of Giacoia's best inks. Hanging on a wall, the ASM cover would display a lot, lot better. Unless your audience is Albert Moy, Scott Williams, yourself and tth2.

 

I know you're an Adams guy, Mike, but, from a purely composition/content/aesthetic basis, this cover isn't even remotely close to his best. Wonky anatomy, way too much blank space...it's all about the significance of the book itself. If this was the cover to GL #77 and another cover had kicked off the run, the for this cover would be a lot, lot less than it is.

 

I don't know Gene, I just took another look through all of the covers from that run and this really is my fave. I know it is hard to pull yourself away from the nostalgia and significance of a piece and really judge it for the art that it is, but I do. I actually like how sparse it is as the focus is meant to be on the two large figure images with no other significant distractions. Also, what is more symbolic or iconic to GL than an image of him charging his ring (or at least trying to)? I am also partial to how Adams drew GL and GA at this point in the run vs his more Giordano-ish style near the end of the run. It is hard to describe but this cover and it's interiors had a different feel which I like better vs the others in the run - cleaner, more dynamic and organic. Interiors-wise it obviously has a lot to do with the fact that Neal inked it himself.

[suspense39]

What's a Ditko goblin gonna go for now?

 

LESS....

 

You'd know better than me, you're probably right. Personally I'd rather have a character drawn by the person that came up with the idea. Being this a mainly nostalgia based hobby, people collecting now probably feel a connection to Romita.

[bluechip]

I think we are getting into pretty solid subjective territory here. I know a ton of guys that would echo almost the exact same sentiments but would substitute the GL76 cover for the ASM98. You have to admit Gene that you are a big Spidey guy and have huge nostalgia for that particular cover. And while I do like the ASM98 cover a lot (and appreciate why many love it), at the end of the day, for me, I see an upside-down/from-the-back shot of Spidey that is pretty standard Kane for the era. As such, for me as a huge Adams fan, it pales in comparison to the GL76 both artistically* AND in significance for both comic pop culture AND as it relates to the artist's canon of work.

 

*The fact that GL's left hand looks the face-hugger from Alien aside of course...

 

 

I think the composition on the ASM 98 is exceptional - much better than standard Kane for the era. The GL 76 cover is just way too sparse for my liking - it loses a ton in B&W vs. the published cover, whereas the Spidey cover is dripping with some of Giacoia's best inks. Hanging on a wall, the ASM cover would display a lot, lot better. Unless your audience is Albert Moy, Scott Williams, yourself and tth2.

 

I know you're an Adams guy, Mike, but, from a purely composition/content/aesthetic basis, this cover isn't even remotely close to his best. Wonky anatomy, way too much blank space...it's all about the significance of the book itself. If this was the cover to GL #77 and another cover had kicked off the run, the for this cover would be a lot, lot less than it is.

 

The history and the perception of its relevance were emphasized by Heritage because they wisely understood that the cover has appeared in countless books and articles about comics ever since it was published. Enough that it got tons of exposure over the years not just to collectors but also to casual fans and observers (some of whom become converted collectors,, who generally are most willing to spend big bucks on stuff they heard was important before they started collecting.)

[Bronty]

I think we are getting into pretty solid subjective territory here. I know a ton of guys that would echo almost the exact same sentiments but would substitute the GL76 cover for the ASM98. You have to admit Gene that you are a big Spidey guy and have huge nostalgia for that particular cover. And while I do like the ASM98 cover a lot (and appreciate why many love it), at the end of the day, for me, I see an upside-down/from-the-back shot of Spidey that is pretty standard Kane for the era. As such, for me as a huge Adams fan, it pales in comparison to the GL76 both artistically* AND in significance for both comic pop culture AND as it relates to the artist's canon of work.

 

*The fact that GL's left hand looks the face-hugger from Alien aside of course...

 

 

I think the composition on the ASM 98 is exceptional - much better than standard Kane for the era. The GL 76 cover is just way too sparse for my liking - it loses a ton in B&W vs. the published cover, whereas the Spidey cover is dripping with some of Giacoia's best inks. Hanging on a wall, the ASM cover would display a lot, lot better. Unless your audience is Albert Moy, Scott Williams, yourself and tth2.

 

I know you're an Adams guy, Mike, but, from a purely composition/content/aesthetic basis, this cover isn't even remotely close to his best. Wonky anatomy, way too much blank space...it's all about the significance of the book itself. If this was the cover to GL #77 and another cover had kicked off the run, the for this cover would be a lot, lot less than it is.

 

I don't know Gene, I just took another look through all of the covers from that run and this really is my fave. I know it is hard to pull yourself away from the nostalgia and significance of a piece and really judge it for the art that it is, but I do. I actually like how sparse it is as the focus is meant to be on the two large figure images with no other significant distractions. Also, what is more symbolic or iconic to GL than an image of him charging his ring (or at least trying to)? I am also partial to how Adams drew GL and GA at this point in the run vs his more Giordano-ish style near the end of the run. It is hard to describe but this cover and it's interiors had a different feel which I like better vs the others in the run - cleaner, more dynamic and organic. Interiors-wise it obviously has a lot to do with the fact that Neal inked it himself.

 

It's especially hard to divorce the image from the key status of the book because the image is about busting up the status quo - it was symbolic of the interiors in a way very few pieces are

[bluechip]

What's a Ditko goblin gonna go for now?

 

LESS....

 

You'd know better than me, you're probably right. Personally I'd rather have a character drawn by the person that came up with the idea. Being this a mainly nostalgia based hobby, people collecting now probably feel a connection to Romita.

 

Hard to say. Ditko pages aren't;exactly t suffering. The splash to 32 is virtually as bland as a page can be yet it went for about 9K.

 

But that said none of Ditko's goblin stories are considered historic.the way the stories are which came after. Once the goblin learned peter's identity it catapulted him from a decent but ordinary villain to the top of the heap. And even people who know very little about spider-man often know the arc of the goblin story post ASM 39 -- which of course includes the drugs and comics code authority story that culminate in ASM 98 and the death of Gwen in 121-122. Whereas little or no cultural observers or casual fans of the movies who haven't obsessed over the comics knows about the goblin stories which came before 39.

Edited November 21, 2015 by bluechip

[vodou]

I vastly prefer GL76 to ASM98. That's on pure artistic merit, "punch" factor if you will, as regarding which frames/hangs better. I've never read a GL -any year, any artist, any of them, ever, a handful of Adams in total (I mean, yes his art is super-awesome-cool, but just was never something I chased or felt the need to even collect the books for when younger). I was a total Marvel zombie in my youth, and totally dug ASM and all the Spidey iterations. DC to me was Crisis, Death of Superman (which I never had a problem keeping bagged and flipping the sheeeeout out of!) and a few other smatterings over the years..that's it. And still..GL76 all day.

 

Kane is such an acquired taste.

Or requires willful blindness

[Bronty]

Kane was marvels best cover artist of the mid 70s (think 25c era, maybe late 20c as well) (admittedly a weaker era - but xmen 94, gsx1, asm129, to name three keys not necessarily the best images but as a reminder). His covers in that era were a cut above what had become a weaker stable. I don't think it's any coincidence he was asked to do so many covers during that time

 

His interiors, not so much

[Lucky Baru]

What's a Ditko goblin gonna go for now?

 

LESS....

 

You'd know better than me, you're probably right. Personally I'd rather have a character drawn by the person that came up with the idea. Being this a mainly nostalgia based hobby, people collecting now probably feel a connection to Romita.

 

Using the 25 year rule you might wanna consider McFarlane as the connection.

[vodou]

Kane was marvels best cover artist of the mid 70s (think 25c era)

 

His interiors, not so much

Uh...prolific you mean? But then...I think that whole decade STUNK, so I can't tell a quickie knocked out Kane from a knocked out Romita (as to gradations of 'quality' ha ha)...truth be told

[vodou]

What's a Ditko goblin gonna go for now?

 

LESS....

 

You'd know better than me, you're probably right. Personally I'd rather have a character drawn by the person that came up with the idea. Being this a mainly nostalgia based hobby, people collecting now probably feel a connection to Romita.

 

Using the 25 year rule you might wanna consider McFarlane as the connection.

Even McFarlane is done now, it's all about Bagley (whose work makes me lust nostalgically for the days of ..McFarlane...GAG). Somebody just dropped a crapton of interiors on Romitaman, and...well I guess it is what it is.

 

But the rule is the Twenty Year Rule, not twenty-five

Edited November 21, 2015 by vodou

[Bronty]

Kane was marvels best cover artist of the mid 70s (think 25c era)

 

His interiors, not so much

Uh...prolific you mean? But then...I think that whole decade STUNK, so I can't tell a quickie knocked out Kane from a knocked out Romita (as to gradations of 'quality' ha ha)...truth be told

 

You caught me pre edits Most prolific and best. Yes it was a weaker stable at that specific point in time but we'll have to agree to disagree. I think he did a lot if very powerful covers

[suspense39]

"And even people who know very little about spider-man often know the arc of the goblin story post ASM 39 (whereas virtually none of them know anything abot the stories before it) "

 

I think that's the observation I was pondering

[stinkininkin]

I think we are getting into pretty solid subjective territory here. I know a ton of guys that would echo almost the exact same sentiments but would substitute the GL76 cover for the ASM98. You have to admit Gene that you are a big Spidey guy and have huge nostalgia for that particular cover. And while I do like the ASM98 cover a lot (and appreciate why many love it), at the end of the day, for me, I see an upside-down/from-the-back shot of Spidey that is pretty standard Kane for the era. As such, for me as a huge Adams fan, it pales in comparison to the GL76 both artistically* AND in significance for both comic pop culture AND as it relates to the artist's canon of work.

 

*The fact that GL's left hand looks the face-hugger from Alien aside of course...

 

 

I think the composition on the ASM 98 is exceptional - much better than standard Kane for the era. The GL 76 cover is just way too sparse for my liking - it loses a ton in B&W vs. the published cover, whereas the Spidey cover is dripping with some of Giacoia's best inks. Hanging on a wall, the ASM cover would display a lot, lot better. Unless your audience is Albert Moy, Scott Williams, yourself and tth2.

 

I know you're an Adams guy, Mike, but, from a purely composition/content/aesthetic basis, this cover isn't even remotely close to his best. Wonky anatomy, way too much blank space...it's all about the significance of the book itself. If this was the cover to GL #77 and another cover had kicked off the run, the for this cover would be a lot, lot less than it is.

 

Some random thoughts, now that I've been singled out as one of the crazy kool-aid drinking Adams fans that inoculates Gene from taking anything I have to say on this subject seriously...

 

 

I seriously love the GL76 cover. Love it artistically and for what it represents. The sparseness critique is, well, a little silly to me, but whatever. I think it's powerful and some of my favorite covers are VERY simple and sparse and in my opinion display very well. They have a quick read immediacy. I think of some of the Miller Daredevil covers in this same light, among many other examples. We'll have to agree to disagree on this.

 

Having said that, I have never thought this cover is Neal's absolute best cover job. And contrary to Mike's view, I don't even think it's hands down the best Adams GL cover. I argue that the GL 76, along with the cluster of 85, 86 and 87 are the best artistically (full disclosure--I own the 87). It's a "tie" IMO, for lack of a better description. Not gonna argue the merits of each here, and I don't expect others to agree with me in lockstep. Not only that, I've said a zillion times that the unpublished (and unfinished) GL76 cover is MUCH better than the published GL76. I've never heard why it was rejected by Neal or DC and would make an interesting conversation to have with Neal. Regardless, if the unpublished GL76 cover had been the published cover, it would be the best Adams GL cover alone and one of if not the best Adams cover period. Again, IMHO. But because the cover in question is the GL76 cover that was published, it's artistic, nostalgic and historic merits make this cover the Adams GL cover to own, which is reflected in the final hammer price.

 

And while there is no competition for me on owning and displaying either the GL76 cover or the Spidey 98 cover (I'd take the GL cover), I would definitely get a new and better logo made for the GL cover. You need the logo to complete the cover and give it balance and the current bright white one shown in this auction is god awful. Without the logo change, the Spidey 98 shows better, even with the glue stain (which I would also have professionally cleaned).

 

So yeah, I'd happily add either one of the these covers to my collection, but thought I'd bring some nuance to that position with this kool-aid induced post.

 

Scott

 

 

[vodou]

Kane was marvels best cover artist of the mid 70s (think 25c era)

 

His interiors, not so much

Uh...prolific you mean? But then...I think that whole decade STUNK, so I can't tell a quickie knocked out Kane from a knocked out Romita (as to gradations of 'quality' ha ha)...truth be told

 

You caught me pre edits Most prolific and best. Yes it was a weaker stable at that specific point in time but we'll have to agree to disagree. I think he did a lot if very powerful covers

You could be right, I just dodge the whole decade as much as possible, so I'm hardly thinking of every cover and pulling the best in my brain, and they keep being Kane or something. Frank Robbins...well that stuff I do specifically like from then.

[Lucky Baru]

What's a Ditko goblin gonna go for now?

 

LESS....

 

You'd know better than me, you're probably right. Personally I'd rather have a character drawn by the person that came up with the idea. Being this a mainly nostalgia based hobby, people collecting now probably feel a connection to Romita.

 

Using the 25 year rule you might wanna consider McFarlane as the connection.

Even McFarlane is done now, it's all about Bagley (whose work makes me lust nostalgically for the days of ..McFarlane...GAG). Somebody just dropped a crapton of interiors on Romitaman, and...well I guess it is what it is.

 

But the rule is the Twenty Year Rule, not twenty-five

 

Bagley and/or Todd. Depends on what you grew-up with. Romita, Kane, whomever. Each generation doesn't want the one that came before as they were never exposed to it or they got exposed to it through their fathers. In either case it makes that era a none starter for the next generation of collectors. Yes, there are examples of items outside of that generalization but for the most part it holds true.

 

I don't desire to own a Neal Adams page, a Romita page, whomever from that era. I wasn't exposed to them growing up. I don't have the "feel good" memories they bring. They are nice but not what I am interested in having one my collection. I don't have a friend my age that collects OA that is interested in adding them into their collections either. We are interested in the guys who came out of Image, and the era of independent books. The generation after ours is interested in the books they read growing up. While I do have some Finch, Mitch Genard and other newer artist pages I can't say they hold the appeal that a Lee and/or Liefeld page holds for me.

 

I use the 25 years as a rule. Yes, I do know what the 20 year rule is. Why do I use 25 years? The prices of OA art really makes it a 25 or 30 year after the fact before your average guy is gonna plunk down the money to start collecting now a days. I read guys in here discussing purchases starting in the mid-5 figure range and moving up from there. Heck, the major discussion in this auction is about a $454,000 vs. a $ 154,000 cover. Most people can't afford nor will they ever be able to afford that type of hobby purchase in their lifetimes. While I have a pretty nice collection it has been built during a time when OA art was cheaper. I could not rebuild my collection if I started today as it would be cost prohibitive to do so.

Edited November 21, 2015 by Lucky Baru