November 2015 Heritage Signature Auction Thread 1 1

[50 Cent #II (1st)]

Whoever wanted the Fleener and XNO covers at the very end of today's sale - sorry I pushed ya'll so hard. I wanted them but not for a single bid more than they went for. Enjoy 'em!

 

Hey, that was me.

 

The only piece of original comic art I own is a Frank Brunner page my father bought for me at a comic shop appearance (Graffiti in Culver City) in the mid 80's, until today, bought to cover art pieces.

 

This one. http://comicspriceguide.com/titles/brain-bat-3-d/rjrri

Can't believe I'm going to own a original painting by XNO and it's also a published cover art. The colors are much more apparent in the original painting.

 

And this one. http://laluzdejesus.com/tax-day-re-sale-event-2015/#jp-carousel-11710 (was for sale for $1k at a well known Hollywood Gallery just this year, was the Ray Zone collection being displayed there?)

for this one. http://www.counterpointla.com/pages/books/46313/mary-fleener/hoodoo

 

Wasn't planning on bidding, but got back from the post office just in time to see the end of the session and thought for published comic cover OA they where going for a low enough amount that I'd take a shot since I collect exclusively Undergrounds. I won both on my last bids, wasn't going higher for each.

 

Guess I'm joining the club...

Well I wish the line had been a little longer at your PO then ha ha

 

But seriously if they couldn't end up in my home, sounds like they went to the next best place! Maybe better as these are your #2 and #3 buys, they definitely mean even more to you than is coming across in your post. Likely I will regret not pushing a bit harder for the rest of my life, so instead I'll just say..."if you change your mind someday, drop me a line :)"

 

Congratulations again on your two offbeat additions and I'm really happy meet a fellow (comic) art fan!

 

Thanks! My first 2 OA purchases and their both Cover Original Art, pretty sweet.

[comix4fun]

I love day two of the art section.....so many little gems that pass right on through.

[bluechip]

What's a Ditko goblin gonna go for now?

 

LESS....

 

You'd know better than me, you're probably right. Personally I'd rather have a character drawn by the person that came up with the idea. Being this a mainly nostalgia based hobby, people collecting now probably feel a connection to Romita.

 

Using the 25 year rule you might wanna consider McFarlane as the connection.

Even McFarlane is done now, it's all about Bagley (whose work makes me lust nostalgically for the days of ..McFarlane...GAG). Somebody just dropped a crapton of interiors on Romitaman, and...well I guess it is what it is.

 

But the rule is the Twenty Year Rule, not twenty-five

 

Bagley and/or Todd. Depends on what you grew-up with. Romita, Kane, whomever. Each generation doesn't want the one that came before as they were never exposed to it or they got exposed to it through their fathers. In either case it makes that era a none starter for the next generation of collectors. Yes, there are examples of items outside of that generalization but for the most part it holds true.

 

I don't desire to own a Neal Adams page, a Romita page, whomever from that era. I wasn't exposed to them growing up. I don't have the "feel good" memories they bring. They are nice but not what I am interested in having in my collection. I don't have a friend my age that collects OA that is interested in adding them into their collections either. We are interested in the guys who came out of Image, and the era of independent books. The generation after ours is interested in the books they read growing up. While I do have some Finch, Mitch Genard and other newer artist pages I can't say they hold the appeal that a Lee and/or Liefeld page holds for me.

 

I use the 25 years as a rule. Yes, I do know what the 20 year rule is. Why do I use 25 years? The prices of OA art really makes it a 25 or 30 year after the fact before your average guy is gonna plunk down the money to start collecting now a days. I read guys in here discussing purchases starting in the mid-5 figure range and moving up from there. Heck, the major discussion in this auction is about a $454,000 vs. a $ 154,000 cover. Most people can't afford nor will they ever be able to afford that type of hobby purchase in their lifetimes. While I have a pretty nice collection it has been built during a time when OA art was cheaper. I could not rebuild my collection if I started today as it would be cost prohibitive to do so.

 

I totally get what your saying, but there must be some kind of other collector out there....look at the prices for high grade grade comics from the golden age, from my limited observation they continue to escalate, would comic art be that much different? It seems that stuff is before people's area of nostalgia. Dunno, I'm just thinking out loud on this board.

 

The 20 or 25 year rule gets misused by people who think too narrowly. It's supposed to be -- and it is -- the average span that it takes for something to JOIN the ranks of what is collectible. It is not about the time when everything 20 or 25 years old REPLACES everything that came before it.

 

That works only if you're talking about something which has faded away because it hasn't survived to remain relevant in any way decades later and nearly all those who remember it or ever heard about it are gone.

 

But it doesn't work when you are talking about characters that continue to be loved and sought after in a medium and a genre that continues to be relevant and whose original stories remain in print or get adapted in new stories.

 

Most of the people collecting golden age were not around to buy fresh new copies off the stand. And a whole lot of silver age collectors were not around to buy those books off the stand. But they saw those books and that art in reprints, or they've seen the covers reproduced and homaged and referenced countless times. Or they just like the new stuff and find it cool to seek out the old stuff just to see what it's like.

 

If you like ONLY the stuff that literally was published for the very first time in the days of your adolescence, great. More power to you. But to presume that stuff "before your time" will never be sought by any of your contemporaries (or the people who come after you) is to ignore mountains of evidence to the contrary.

 

I guarantee you that every person who has paid over a million for a Honus Wagner card was not around in 1909 when the card was published. But each of them, most likely, collected sports cards when they were a kid, and remembered hearing or reading that the Honus Wagner card was really valuable. So when they grew up and got rich, they decided to get one, based on the nostalgia they experienced hearing about it when they were young.

 

I just purchased a piece of art the other day that was from a time long, long before I grew up or was even born. And it evoked a time period in history that was also well before my experience. But, you know, I like the character, whom I discovered only decades later. And I have heard and read an awful lot about that time in history ever since I was a kid. So even though the piece originated well before my time, by an artist whose work I never once purchased fresh off the stand, the piece still held a nostalgia for me.

 

For most people, nostalgia doesn't happen based on when something was made, but when you first heard about it (or something like it)

 

 

Umm, if you read my post you will find that I stated their were exceptions to the generalization.

 

I am speaking from the collector car market which is another collector's niche market. Niche markets generally react the same.

 

Sure there are vehicles that continue to increase in value and outperform others. However, most of the generation that collected the vehicles of their youth that came before the current one see their values decrease as they leave the market. There isn't anyone that wants/desires those vehicles as they had been before and there suddenly is a glut of them on the market.

 

General overview/example I can offer is the pre-world war II collectible vehicles. The price rose form the 1970's through the late 1990's. As the collector pool aged and vehicles got snatched up the prices went up. However, when my grandparent's generation who fought WWII began to retire they began to sell their collections off. A glut in the market occurred and prices fell. On the whole they have not recovered.

 

Examples now occurring as the baby boomer's start to sell off their collections as they retire:

 

The 55-57 Thunderbird. Use to be a vehicle that had a solid core following and the prices went higher and higher. Then in 2006 they flat-lined in the 40K range. The generation that collected them and remembered them were selling them off and the interest wasn't there like it had been. You can still pick-up a very nicely restored 55-57 Thunderbird for around 40K and it is almost 2016. Another example, the same years as the Thunderbird Bel-Air. The value on them has remained constant and has slipped during that same period. In other words, since 2006 you can pick one up for 90-95K.

 

The OA market has and is expanding in price. However, the higher end pieces are owned by the baby boomer generation and they are at the point in life where they are looking to start cashing their collections out. It should be interesting to see where prices go as that occurs are a faster and faster rate as they age.

 

My response was not just to your post but also to the others you quoted.

[bluechip]

None of this is much about image quality anyways?

 

Not sure what you are talking about - my entire original point was that the Spidey #98 cover would look nicer on the wall next to the GL #76. My whole point was solely about how the image looks and how people relate to it. With the GL #76, you have to write an essay to explain why it's the better, more important, more valuable cover. The Spidey cover speaks for itself - "look at me, I'm awesome."

 

That's actually not what I wrote. I think (with a new modified logo especially), the GL 76 cover looks better than the Spidey 98. Period. Better drawing. Better inking. Better layout. Bigger impact. Not even close. GIl Kane=Neal Adams? Please.

 

And oh yeah, it has some serious history and distinction to sweeten it's appeal, but like all things this is just my

 

Scott

 

 

Regarding "serious history and distinction," I would bet that more layfolk are familiar with the spider-man drug story defying the comics code than are familiar with how the GL 76 issue figured into the history of DC's turn toward relevance.

[eewwnuk]

None of this is much about image quality anyways?

 

Not sure what you are talking about - my entire original point was that the Spidey #98 cover would look nicer on the wall next to the GL #76. My whole point was solely about how the image looks and how people relate to it. With the GL #76, you have to write an essay to explain why it's the better, more important, more valuable cover. The Spidey cover speaks for itself - "look at me, I'm awesome."

 

That's actually not what I wrote. I think (with a new modified logo especially), the GL 76 cover looks better than the Spidey 98. Period. Better drawing. Better inking. Better layout. Bigger impact. Not even close. GIl Kane=Neal Adams? Please.

 

And oh yeah, it has some serious history and distinction to sweeten it's appeal, but like all things this is just my

 

Scott

 

 

Regarding "serious history and distinction," I would bet that more layfolk are familiar with the spider-man drug story defying the comics code than are familiar with how the GL 76 issue figured into the history of DC's turn toward relevance.

 

Doubtful. I'm a comic guy and couldn't tell you about the spidey story. Gl 76 is one of the iconic comic covers in comic land. No denying that. The asm 98 cover is nice but nothing memorable to people outside those that grew up with spidey during that period.

[batman_fan]

For the stuff I was tracking in the auction, definitely some highs and lows.

 

Amazing Adventures 7, pg3. $1553 wBP, pretty cheap for a Adams page.

 

Spiderman 159 panel pages (pg 5, 6, and 13). Pretty strong price but all were pretty nice

 

Spiderman 185, $19717. Really strong price given the image. It looks like Spiderman covers are moving to a $20k entry fee.

 

Fantastic Four 111 splash, $7170. Higher than I expected given how the Thing looks kind of squat and a little "weird"

 

Ironman 33 cover, $17925. Seemed a bit low. Overall a pretty decent cover.

 

Hulk 200 panel, $2629. I actually thought it may go higher. It was a nice panel and definitely from my sweet spot for nostalgia which is probably why I thought it would go for more.

 

Legends 2 cover, $8365. Pretty strong. I thought this cover sold a while back for less.

 

Spiderman 32 splash, $8,365.00 wow, I guess you can you own a Ditko Spiderman splash and leave it at that.

 

Spiderman 32 panel page, $22,705.00. WOW, no Spidey, seems really strong.

 

Logan's Run 6 cover, $27,485.00. I was shocked. This was at about $6k when the live bidding started. I thought maybe $10k if someone went nuts.

 

Green Lantern 29 Cover, $38,240.00 I liked it but didn't love it. I thought the price was really strong.

 

All the Jim Lee stuff seemed to go on a the high side.

 

Fantastic Four 106 panel at $2390. I don't know why, but I like this one. Seemed about right.

 

Hulk 156 cover, $45,410, really strong price but it is a nice cover.

 

 

[Silver Surfer]

Do we know who bought the GL cover yet?

[delekkerste]

That's actually not what I wrote. I think (with a new modified logo), the GL 76 cover looks better than the Spidey 98. Period. Not even close. GIl Kane=Neal Adams? Please.

 

And oh yeah, it has some serious history and distinction to sweeten it's appeal, but like all things this is just my

 

Scott

 

Scott, no one is saying that Gil Kane > Neal Adams. No one is saying that Herb Trimpe > John Byrne either, but the Hulk #181 cover is infinitely better-looking than the FF #269 cover that just sold at Heritage. Which also highlights that it's not irrational in the least to prefer a lesser artist working on a more popular character to a better artist working on a less popular one.

 

 

 

But that wasn't the argument.

 

In this case, the argument you made was that the this Gil Kane Spidey cover was better/looks better than the Adams GL 76 cover. I disagree with that assessment. I'm addressing this pair of covers specifically, which is what we were talking about. Not looking for agreement. Just my measly which must be boring everyone else to tears by now.

 

For what it's worth, I can think of numerous Gil Kane covers I would prefer over numerous Neal Adams covers even though Adams is the vastly superior artist in general, so we're not as far apart as you might have thought. But that is a different conversation.

 

Scott

 

Sorry, was in a hurry to get to dinner earlier and focused more on your punchline of "Gil Kane = Neal Adams? Please." statement in responding. But, let's go back to the crux of what you said - " looks better than the Spidey 98. Period. Better drawing. Better inking. Better layout. Bigger impact. Not even close".

 

First, let's state the obvious - most of that is totally subjective. And, that, of course we agree that Adams is the vastly superior artist in general.

 

Second, I don't think on the technical merits that it's as clear-cut as you say. I think the layout of the ASM 98 cover is very strong - it's an extremely interesting perspective Kane has chosen. Adams' inks may be more technically adept, but, if I'm standing across a room, the Kane/Giacoia cover delivers far more of a punch - more engaging characters, more interesting/exciting premise, equally interesting angles/perspective, more ink splashed on the page with less blank space. Better drawn? At least there are no alien hands or wonky waists on Spidey as there are on Green Lantern!

 

But, even if we acknowledge Adams' superior technical merits, we're judging comic book art, not engineering schematics. I look at the Spidey cover and I see Marvel's most popular superhero fighting his arch-nemesis high above the streets of New York, as a suddenly grip-less Spidey scrapes into the concrete side of a building by his fingernails to cling to life as he's being mercilessly taunted. All the space on the board is used, with buildings rising at a slanted angle and Spidey impossibly contorted as he clings for dear life - you can feel his helplessness and panic. And, you can feel his motion and weight as gravity is pulling him towards death.

 

I think some people are giving this cover far too short shrift. Look at the cover as a fan - as your kid self, even - not through the lens of an art critic or art professional. It is superb - I really think it's one of the very best Spidey covers in the entire run. Adams is the superior artist to Romita as well - but, so what? I'd still prefer any number of Romita Spidey covers over this Adams cover as well and would argue the same that they would look nicer on a wall. I think a lot of people are hung up on the fact that this is Kane. But, who cares - it's an interesting, appealing cover that evokes all the right responses: nostalgia, joy, appreciation, interest, excitement, engagement.

 

That's not to say that the GL cover isn't interesting, exciting and nostalgic as well. But, to compare the two and say that it's "not even close" based on technical merit with a dollop of relevance I would strongly argue is subjective and largely ignores much of why people love comics and comic art - their engagement with the characters and stories and how they make/made you feel both now and through the power of nostalgia. In that respect, the Spidey cover packs just as much, if not more, of a punch. I can agree to disagree on this. But, I cannot agree that it is "not even close" in terms of comparing how the two present themselves.

 

And, anyway, in the weeks/months leading up to the auction, many people I spoke to about the GL cover thought the OA was a bit underwhelming, while nearly everyone was impressed by the Spidey #98. Not that they thought the latter was better, more important or more valuable, but I think the prevailing opinion was that the latter presented better in scans and in person. And I was really just agreeing with that.

[Nexus]

Do we know who bought the GL cover yet?

 

Yes, buyer confirmed to me after the win. I'll let him tell the world if he chooses. I'm sure it will get out soon enough.

[delekkerste]

Doubtful. I'm a comic guy and couldn't tell you about the spidey story. Gl 76 is one of the iconic comic covers in comic land. No denying that. The asm 98 cover is nice but nothing memorable to people outside those that grew up with spidey during that period.

 

I don't think Joe Sixpack is that familiar with the drug storyline, but he sure as hell couldn't tell you about how GL #76 ushered in a new age of realism and social relevance in comics either.

 

Not many people could tell you why GL and GA teamed up or why they are fighting on the cover of GL #76. But, you'll find a ton of people who can tell you that Spidey's arch-nemesis is the Green Goblin and would instantly recognize the ASM #98 cover as what must be a classic, prototypical showdown between the two.

 

I didn't grow up with Spidey during that period, but did discover these issues later through Marvel Tales. I think you overestimate how popular the GL #76 cover is even within the hobby - just from the sheer popularity of Spidey alone, I bet more people have read ASM #98 and would recognize the cover vs. GL #76, especially among younger folks in the hobby. We definitely do not have a representative sample of hobbyists posting in this thread.

[JadeGiant]

I placed my first HA bids prior to the auction day yesterday on a few pieces and logged in and followed the auctions which was a lot of fun.

 

Really enjoying this thread - love the debate over the ASM v GL cover.

 

Good stuff!

 

 

 

PS - does anyone know what the cut that went to Adams on the cover sale amounted to?

Edited November 22, 2015 by JadeGiant

[delekkerste]

The GL 76 cover and ASM 98 cover were both in my opinion and as such I did not bid on them.

 

I did however win this. And its awesome...

 

 

Did anyone else win any art other than the GL76 and ASM 98?

 

That is a killer cover.

[Nexus]

Mike and Gene, you know I love you both but for what it's worth (and i'm a huge Spidey guy)

 

the GL #76 is simply incredible to me. That run was all about "relevance" and challenging

 

the socio-economic/political norms of the day usually by way of angry Ollie slapping

 

around golden boy Hal. This dynamic runs through every single issue of that run. So

 

the cover with GA shooting the Arrow through GL's Lantern is quite simply the perfect

 

representation of that symbolically (and in this way an improvement over the original

 

unpublished version). Such a thoughtful composition and as it's purely symbolic and never

 

actually happens in the issue, it's one of the few pieces that sways towards contemporary

 

art as opposed to the garden-variety comic cover with a dramatic action scene inspired by one of the interior pages.

 

Just thought i'd chime in,

 

Ken

http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryDetail.asp?GCat=19201

 

Hey Ken

 

Totally hear what you're saying, though I think much of what you say strengthens my argument as well. Like you said, this is as much about the run and its relevance and how this cover captures that, with the other part being its thoughtful composition and how it embodies/symbolizes the challenging nature of the run. All of which I am totally on board with. But, side by side, framed and hanging on your wall, unless the only people seeing it are die hard comic fans steeped in the history of the medium and connoisseurs of comic art and artists, I'll bet that the overwhelming majority of other people are going to find the ASM #98 more impressive. It's instantly recognizable, even by the layman, from the style and trade dress that this is an old/early/classic match up between one of the two most popular characters in comics vs. his arch-enemy (as opposed to two B-list at best characters on the GL #76 cover). A hero in peril, powerless and hanging off the side of a building while being taunted by his biggest nemesis - you don't need to know anything about historical relevance or symbolism, it's just flat-out engaging and ropes you in.

 

Connoisseurs of the medium, like everyone here, will be more split on the matter because some will be more focused on the artists and artistry (which favors Adams), or the historical relevance both reflecting societal changes and the changes in comics (which favors GL), while others like myself will prefer characters, nostalgia, etc. (which favors Spidey). But, frame the art, hang them side by side, and then ask a thousand people off the street which is cooler and I bet Spidey wins by a landslide. And not just because it's any Spidey cover, but because it's an exceptionally well done one from the right time period, featuring the right characters, with an interesting composition, an engaging premise/story/dialogue, executed absolutely brilliantly.

 

That said, great minds can agree to disagree.

 

Yeah I don't get it Gene? I mean if I can summarize what you are saying the spidey would appeal to the layman and the image on the spidey is better.

 

Well so what? None of this is much about image quality anyways? And what John Q Public thinks is irrelevant.

 

I think you just like the ASM better

 

Yes, what the layman thinks is irrelevant here. The layman may find a Thomas Kinkade more appealing than a Picasso...so what?

 

And as you say, the image quality is a minor consideration. Even if one finds the ASM #98 a better drawn cover than GL #76...so what? That has practically nothing to do with anything in terms of their perceived value to the people who matter in this case (i.e. the bidders!). They're the ones who will decide what's important.

 

If I find a modern ASM cover that's better executed than the #98, would anyone in the hobby want that over the #98, even if the general public would like the modern example more?

 

Or let's say Batman is a more popular character than Spidey to the general public. So if there's some random generic Batman art that's put up next to ASM #98, and wins the vote in a landslide, because the general public just likes Batman more, does that mean anything in terms of their values at auction?

 

Lastly, if GL #76's significance is only important to die-hard fans, and is lost on the general public...then how is it that ASM #98 wins by a landslide because it's from the "right time period" with an "engaging premise/story/dialogue"? How does the general public know all about ASM #98's merits, but none of GL #76's?

 

 

 

 

 

[wpbooks]

That's actually not what I wrote. I think (with a new modified logo), the GL 76 cover looks better than the Spidey 98. Period. Not even close. GIl Kane=Neal Adams? Please.

 

And oh yeah, it has some serious history and distinction to sweeten it's appeal, but like all things this is just my

 

Scott

 

Scott, no one is saying that Gil Kane > Neal Adams. No one is saying that Herb Trimpe > John Byrne either, but the Hulk #181 cover is infinitely better-looking than the FF #269 cover that just sold at Heritage. Which also highlights that it's not irrational in the least to prefer a lesser artist working on a more popular character to a better artist working on a less popular one.

 

 

 

But that wasn't the argument.

 

In this case, the argument you made was that the this Gil Kane Spidey cover was better/looks better than the Adams GL 76 cover. I disagree with that assessment. I'm addressing this pair of covers specifically, which is what we were talking about. Not looking for agreement. Just my measly which must be boring everyone else to tears by now.

 

For what it's worth, I can think of numerous Gil Kane covers I would prefer over numerous Neal Adams covers even though Adams is the vastly superior artist in general, so we're not as far apart as you might have thought. But that is a different conversation.

 

Scott

 

OK, last post from me on this topic.

 

Sorry, was in a hurry to get to dinner earlier and focused more on your punchline of "Gil Kane = Neal Adams? Please." statement in responding. But, let's go back to the crux of what you said - " looks better than the Spidey 98. Period. Better drawing. Better inking. Better layout. Bigger impact. Not even close".

 

First, let's state the obvious - most of that is totally subjective. And, that, of course we agree that Adams is the vastly superior artist in general.

 

Second, I don't think on the technical merits that it's as clear-cut as you say. I think the layout of the ASM 98 cover is very strong - it's an extremely interesting perspective Kane has chosen. Adams' inks may be more technically adept, but, if I'm standing across a room, the Kane/Giacoia cover delivers far more of a punch - more engaging characters, more interesting/exciting premise, equally interesting angles/perspective, more ink splashed on the page with less blank space. Better drawn? At least there are no alien hands or wonky waists on Spidey as there are on Green Lantern!

 

But, even if we acknowledge Adams' superior technical merits, we're judging comic book art, not engineering schematics. I look at the Spidey cover and I see Marvel's most popular superhero fighting his arch-nemesis high above the streets of New York, as a suddenly grip-less Spidey scrapes into the concrete side of a building by his fingernails to cling to life as he's being mercilessly taunted. All the space on the board is used, with buildings rising at a slanted angle and Spidey impossibly contorted as he clings for dear life - you can feel his helplessness and panic. And, you can feel his motion and weight as gravity is pulling him towards death.

 

I think some people are giving this cover far too short shrift. Look at the cover as a fan - as your kid self, even - not through the lens of an art critic or art professional. It is superb - I really think it's one of the very best Spidey covers in the entire run. Adams is the superior artist to Romita as well - but, so what? I'd still prefer any number of Romita Spidey covers over this Adams cover as well and would argue the same that they would look nicer on a wall. I think a lot of people are hung up on the fact that this is Kane. But, who cares - it's an interesting, appealing cover that evokes all the right responses: nostalgia, joy, appreciation, interest, excitement, engagement.

 

That's not to say that the GL cover isn't interesting, exciting and nostalgic as well. But, to compare the two and say that it's "not even close" based on technical merit with a dollop of relevance I would strongly argue is subjective and largely ignores much of why people love comics and comic art - their engagement with the characters and stories and how they make/made you feel both now and through the power of nostalgia. In that respect, the Spidey cover packs just as much, if not more, of a punch. I can agree to disagree on this. But, I cannot agree that it is "not even close" in terms of comparing how the two present themselves.

 

And, anyway, in the weeks/months leading up to the auction, many people I spoke to about the GL cover thought the OA was a bit underwhelming, while nearly everyone was impressed by the Spidey #98. Not that they thought the latter was better, more important or more valuable, but I think the prevailing opinion was that the latter presented better in scans and in person. And I was really just agreeing with that.

 

I held both pieces in my hands at the preview in SF last week, and not knowing anything about the prices or general value of each, if I had been able to choose one to just up and run out of the gallery with, it would have been ASM #98 hands down. A much more dynamic piece on it's own, by comparison, just from an overall aesthetic POV. I have no preference for Adams or Kane in this little contest....to me the Spidey cover was the one that kept stealing my glance and lustful desire!!!! And I loved that it had the CCA seal when the issue I bought as an 11 year old did not. (Also bought the GL/GA #76 from the local spin rack.....in color that cover may be the more appealing, but just looking at the pen and ink art...still going with ASM #96).

[Brian Peck]

Mike and Gene, you know I love you both but for what it's worth (and i'm a huge Spidey guy)

 

the GL #76 is simply incredible to me. That run was all about "relevance" and challenging

 

the socio-economic/political norms of the day usually by way of angry Ollie slapping

 

around golden boy Hal. This dynamic runs through every single issue of that run. So

 

the cover with GA shooting the Arrow through GL's Lantern is quite simply the perfect

 

representation of that symbolically (and in this way an improvement over the original

 

unpublished version). Such a thoughtful composition and as it's purely symbolic and never

 

actually happens in the issue, it's one of the few pieces that sways towards contemporary

 

art as opposed to the garden-variety comic cover with a dramatic action scene inspired by one of the interior pages.

 

Just thought i'd chime in,

 

Ken

http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryDetail.asp?GCat=19201

 

Hey Ken

 

Totally hear what you're saying, though I think much of what you say strengthens my argument as well. Like you said, this is as much about the run and its relevance and how this cover captures that, with the other part being its thoughtful composition and how it embodies/symbolizes the challenging nature of the run. All of which I am totally on board with. But, side by side, framed and hanging on your wall, unless the only people seeing it are die hard comic fans steeped in the history of the medium and connoisseurs of comic art and artists, I'll bet that the overwhelming majority of other people are going to find the ASM #98 more impressive. It's instantly recognizable, even by the layman, from the style and trade dress that this is an old/early/classic match up between one of the two most popular characters in comics vs. his arch-enemy (as opposed to two B-list at best characters on the GL #76 cover). A hero in peril, powerless and hanging off the side of a building while being taunted by his biggest nemesis - you don't need to know anything about historical relevance or symbolism, it's just flat-out engaging and ropes you in.

 

Connoisseurs of the medium, like everyone here, will be more split on the matter because some will be more focused on the artists and artistry (which favors Adams), or the historical relevance both reflecting societal changes and the changes in comics (which favors GL), while others like myself will prefer characters, nostalgia, etc. (which favors Spidey). But, frame the art, hang them side by side, and then ask a thousand people off the street which is cooler and I bet Spidey wins by a landslide. And not just because it's any Spidey cover, but because it's an exceptionally well done one from the right time period, featuring the right characters, with an interesting composition, an engaging premise/story/dialogue, executed absolutely brilliantly.

 

That said, great minds can agree to disagree.

 

Yeah I don't get it Gene? I mean if I can summarize what you are saying the spidey would appeal to the layman and the image on the spidey is better.

 

Well so what? None of this is much about image quality anyways? And what John Q Public thinks is irrelevant.

 

I think you just like the ASM better

 

Yes, what the layman thinks is irrelevant here. The layman may find a Thomas Kinkade more appealing than a Picasso...so what?

 

And as you say, the image quality is a minor consideration. Even if one finds the ASM #98 a better drawn cover than GL #76...so what? That has practically nothing to do with anything in terms of their perceived value to the people who matter in this case (i.e. the bidders!). They're the ones who will decide what's important.

 

If I find a modern ASM cover that's better executed than the #98, would anyone in the hobby want that over the #98, even if the general public would like the modern example more?

 

Or let's say Batman is a more popular character than Spidey to the general public. So if there's some random generic Batman art that's put up next to ASM #98, and wins the vote in a landslide, because the general public just likes Batman more, does that mean anything in terms of their values at auction?

 

Lastly, if GL #76's significance is only important to die-hard fans, and is lost on the general public...then how is it that ASM #98 wins by a landslide because it's from the "right time period" with an "engaging premise/story/dialogue"? How does the general public know all about ASM #98's merits, but none of GL #76's?

 

 

 

 

 

Spider-Man is up there with Batman and Superman for a character that most of the general public are familiar with. Green Lantern is not.

[delekkerste]

Lastly, if GL #76's significance is only important to die-hard fans, and is lost on the general public...then how is it that ASM #98 wins by a landslide because it's from the "right time period" with an "engaging premise/story/dialogue"? How does the general public know all about ASM #98's merits, but none of GL #76's?

 

They don't, and that's my point. Look at the ASM #98 cover and it's self-explanatory. Obviously from the style and trade dressing it's old/early/classic. Two very recognizable characters put into an interesting situation that ropes you right in. You don't know how it happened or how it gets resolved, but you know there's an interesting story going on where you know a lot of the details just from looking at the cover.

 

The GL #76 cover sets up an interesting premise, but no one looking at it would know anything about the issue's historical relevance or significance that arguably accounts for the bulk of its appeal.

 

 

Even if one finds the ASM #98 a better drawn cover than GL #76...so what? That has practically nothing to do with anything in terms of their perceived value to the people who matter in this case (i.e. the bidders!). They're the ones who will decide what's important.

 

Which is the more visually appealing cover is the entire point. I haven't brought valuations or bidding or anything else into the discussion at all. And, from that perspective, I do think it's relevant what people outside of our little microcosm of die-hard fanboys think/would think. Or, at least people who are able to separate the historical relevance, valuation, and artistic legacy of Neal Adams outside of the simple discussion of which cover is more visually appealing.

 

And, like I said - we can agree to disagree which is the more visual appealing. What I do not agree with is that the GL #76 is clearly superior and that it's "not even close". Let's not judge comic art on the J. Evans Pritchard scale for judging poetry (see "Dead Poets Society"): "Question one rates the cover's perfection, question two rates its importance. And once these questions have been answered, determining a cover's greatness becomes a relatively simple matter by plotting the perfection on the Y axis and the importance on the X axis and taking the area as how great the cover is..."

 

As Robin Williams said in the film: "Excrement"! The ASM #98 cover is incredibly exciting, engaging, evocative and FUN. I would argue moreso than the GL #76. But, even if you disagree, there's no way that it's not at least a real debate. And that is all that I've been trying to tell you art snobs.

[Lee B.]

The one page I really wanted was the Thing splash by Perez. I was doing the live auction and did a cut bid at the end, got out bid and by the time my phone was ready for me to bid again, auction closed I figure whoever won it would have gone higher than I was willing to spend (at least that is what I tell myself). The other pages I was watching was the panel from Spiderman 109 with Dr Strange. I really liked it but too high for me. The MoltenMan panel was also interesting. I sold at a previous HA auction for just over 10K but this time went for more. I was hoping it would go for less than 10k but someone else wanted it more.

 

 

Hi Greg! I ended up winning the FF #178 splash. It is (will be) the most I have ever spent on a single piece of art. I was willing to go up to around $8K-$9K but was getting close to tapping out when the pesky cut bids stopped and I won. I really love Dave Hunt's inking on that issue and am lucky to have three other pages from that book. Sorry! Best regards, Lee

[NelsonAI]

GL 76 vs. ASM 98

If I had to choose, I would take the ASM cover (forgetting about $ value).

 

I grew up reading both comics and followed both artists.

 

I always thought Adams GL art was far superior than his art on Batman.

 

Spider-man is my favorite character but I read all genres and love all artistic styles. Adams realistic style made his art jump out but Kane was a better cover designer in terms of layout.

 

I'm a guy that appreciates artists that draw backgrounds and perspective.

 

If I look at the ASM cover, the art speaks for itself. No word balloons are needed. The GL cover has speed lines for backgrounds and word balloons are needed. Even with the word balloons, you still don't know what's going on.

 

I love covers where the villain has the upper hand. It simply makes you want to buy the comic. Isn't that the benchmark of a great cover?

 

Once nostalgia kicks in, GL may get more votes because of the storyline, not the art itself. Isn't the storyline why Watchmen art is highly collected when the art itself is okay but not great.

 

My 2¢.

 

Thankfully we all have different tastes in art.

 

Congratulations to all buyers and sellers.

 

Cheers!

N.

 

 

 

[Nexus]

Lastly, if GL #76's significance is only important to die-hard fans, and is lost on the general public...then how is it that ASM #98 wins by a landslide because it's from the "right time period" with an "engaging premise/story/dialogue"? How does the general public know all about ASM #98's merits, but none of GL #76's?

 

They don't, and that's my point. Look at the ASM #98 cover and it's self-explanatory. Obviously from the style and trade dressing it's old/early/classic. Two very recognizable characters put into an interesting situation that ropes you right in. You don't know how it happened or how it gets resolved, but you know there's an interesting story going on where you know a lot of the details just from looking at the cover.

 

The GL #76 cover sets up an interesting premise, but no one looking at it would know anything about the issue's historical relevance or significance that arguably accounts for the bulk of its appeal.

 

 

Even if one finds the ASM #98 a better drawn cover than GL #76...so what? That has practically nothing to do with anything in terms of their perceived value to the people who matter in this case (i.e. the bidders!). They're the ones who will decide what's important.

 

Which is the more visually appealing cover is the entire point. I haven't brought valuations or bidding or anything else into the discussion at all. And, from that perspective, I do think it's relevant what people outside of our little microcosm of die-hard fanboys think/would think. Or, at least people who are able to separate the historical relevance, valuation, and artistic legacy of Neal Adams outside of the simple discussion of which cover is more visually appealing.

 

And, like I said - we can agree to disagree which is the more visual appealing. What I do not agree with is that the GL #76 is clearly superior and that it's "not even close". Let's not judge comic art on the J. Evans Pritchard scale for judging poetry (see "Dead Poets Society"): "Question one rates the cover's perfection, question two rates its importance. And once these questions have been answered, determining a cover's greatness becomes a relatively simple matter by plotting the perfection on the Y axis and the importance on the X axis and taking the area as how great the cover is..."

 

As Robin Williams said in the film: "Excrement"! The ASM #98 cover is incredibly exciting, engaging, evocative and FUN. I would argue moreso than the GL #76. But, even if you disagree, there's no way that it's not at least a real debate. And that is all that I've been trying to tell you art snobs.

 

That's all fine and well (although, ironically, I find your championing of ASM #98 to be similar to the J. Evans Pritchard scale! ), but why is it even a debate? You can find ASM #98 more visually appealing than GL #76, I can find WEB OF SPIDER-MAN #1 more visually appealing than ASM #98, and the general public can find black velvet paintings more visually appealing than all of the above. None of that changes the fact that, for its own reasons, whether you agree or not, the hobby has deemed GL #76 to be the more important cover. The end.

[MediumLover]

Won two Jack Davis Football mascots original art.

 

 

Michigan Wolverines

 

 

Pittsburgh Steelers

 

 

Go Blue!