october Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 5 minutes ago, fantastic_four said: every time I see Bernard I'm confused about whether it's the main time a few weeks later where he wakes up on the beach. This. My wife and I though there might actually be two Bernards walking around at the same time, especially after seeing the retired/damaged models in cold storage. Completely confusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
october Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 (edited) Bernard is one of my favorite characters and his story is very interesting, but it's presented in such a jumbled, incoherent way that it's really detracting from my enjoyment. I suppose it's deliberate, maybe done to mirror his own internal confusion, but it creates more annoyance than sympathy. Edited June 12, 2018 by october Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantastic_four Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 (edited) 25 minutes ago, october said: Bernard is one of my favorite characters and his story is very interesting, but it's presented in such a jumbled, incoherent way that it's really detracting from my enjoyment. I suppose it's deliberate, maybe done to mirror his own internal confusion, but it creates more annoyance than sympathy. I mostly agree. I really want to enjoy Westworld and a ton of it puts it into my top 10 or 20 shows of all time, but the overly-complex narrative structure keeps it out. Usually complex narratives challenge me and I enjoy working them out if the rest of the fictional elements are compelling as they are here in this show, but the time jumps in this one annoy me as they do you. I loved trying to figure out Prometheus, or Lost, or X-Files, or the Matrix films, or even working to penetrate Shakespeare's overly-ornate language, but these time jumps leave me cold and confused. It's still my favorite show on television at the moment though, and using that timeline I just posted should help me enjoy it a bit more, but the fact that you have to work to put each piece of the puzzle into its right chronological order is irritating. At least when you're working with a puzzle you can look down at the board, but you have to keep these pieces they feed you every episode TOTALLY in your head without some external guide keeping track of where the current ones fit. Edited June 12, 2018 by fantastic_four Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
october Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 Thanks for the timeline. Definitely cleared up a few things, most notably the Delos Coughlin/Strand chronology, which I wasn't clear on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantastic_four Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 So next week I'm assuming we find out whether or not William is a host since he was digging in his own arm at the end to find out for himself. I don't see how he's survived for days with multiple gunshots including a gut shot, so that suggests he's a host. What is the source of this rivalry between Ford and William? Why'd Ford give him that "profile" card full of all the bad stuff he's done in the park? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
october Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 6 hours ago, fantastic_four said: So next week I'm assuming we find out whether or not William is a host since he was digging in his own arm at the end to find out for himself. I don't see how he's survived for days with multiple gunshots including a gut shot, so that suggests he's a host. What is the source of this rivalry between Ford and William? Why'd Ford give him that "profile" card full of all the bad stuff he's done in the park? If he is a host, he managed to pass the neck scan, though that apparently only checks for the explosives implanted into most hosts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantastic_four Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 24 minutes ago, october said: If he is a host, he managed to pass the neck scan, though that apparently only checks for the explosives implanted into most hosts. Since he would be one of the empty vessels with a human consciousness I don't see why he'd have explosives in his neck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Marino Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 1 hour ago, october said: If he is a host, he managed to pass the neck scan, though that apparently only checks for the explosives implanted into most hosts. The neck scan is just to see if they have explosives in their head / neck. there could be a bunch of hosts (Maeve for sure) that would also pass that scan, since it's either not there or inert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodey Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 Bernard passed a scan too in one of the previous episodes. I kinda hope MIB is not a host Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantastic_four Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 (edited) So William wasn't a host, but in the post-credits scene we see him at some indeterminate point in the future he's being conditioned to place into an empty host body. Whatever place it is looks like the same Forge he was going to during the episode except it's dirty, broken up, and the host version of his daughter says the "system's long gone" implying that this is a point well into the future from the last episode of season two. So he goes there to destroy the Delos immortality system but gets stuck in it instead. Nolan's wife Lisa Joy has already said that this scene takes place in the "far, far future," so it looks like Westworld is pretty much abandoned at that point. Since it looks like some or all of season three will take place in human society maybe they'll rename the show to "Westworld: Blade Runner." Edited June 25, 2018 by fantastic_four aardvark88 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodey Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 What a crazy ending. And Stubbs was a host the whole time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantastic_four Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 13 minutes ago, Rodey said: What a crazy ending. And Stubbs was a host the whole time. He's such a minor character I didn't think anything of it. The biggest "you think he's human, but he's really a host!" reveal is still Bernard in season one. Dolores being in Charlotte's body in the future timeline was interesting but not a big shock or anything. Maybe if you go back and watch you can see her saying Dolores-type things, but meh, someone's brain-ball in a different body isn't a particularly compelling concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodey Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 20 minutes ago, fantastic_four said: He's such a minor character I didn't think anything of it. The biggest "you think he's human, but he's really a host!" reveal is still Bernard in season one. Dolores being in Charlotte's body in the future timeline was interesting but not a big shock or anything. Maybe if you go back and watch you can see her saying Dolores-type things, but meh, someone's brain-ball in a different body isn't a particularly compelling concept. Agreed. The idea that anyone could be a host at anytime isn't a fun trick anymore. And the little pearl shell game wasn't much of shocker either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantastic_four Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 1 hour ago, Rodey said: The idea that anyone could be a host at anytime isn't a fun trick anymore. It's not fun from a BIG SURPRISE REVEAL! perspective, but I definitely find it compelling from the perspective of widening the audience's view of artificial life. If technology advances to this point where we can't even tell hosts from humans, shouldn't we respect the sanctity of the hosts' sapience in the same way we respect humans? thirdgreenham 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastballspecial Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 After hating the first season I did enjoy the 2nd season much better. The Native America episode was probably the best for me. aardvark88 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
october Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 On 6/25/2018 at 10:07 AM, Rodey said: Agreed. The idea that anyone could be a host at anytime isn't a fun trick anymore. And the little pearl shell game wasn't much of shocker either. It's as gimmicky as the "who will die next" aspect of The Walking Dead....and I hate it. The chopped up timelines are also gimmicky. I spent 80% of my mental energy just trying to sort out the chronology of season 2, which isn't particularly fun or interesting. Too many plot tricks, dumb "reveals" and other smoke and mirror contrivances. I though this was a steep dropoff from season 1, Ghost Nation episode aside (which was excellent). I wasn't impressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantastic_four Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 2 minutes ago, october said: The chopped up timelines are also gimmicky. I spent 80% of my mental energy just trying to sort out the chronology of season 2, which isn't particularly fun or interesting. That's what's keeping the show out of my top 20 sci-fi works of all time. It's really good, but the fragmented timelines are tedious and confusing to track without writing down the sequence of events as some web sites have done such as the one I linked a few pages back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
october Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 20 minutes ago, fantastic_four said: That's what's keeping the show out of my top 20 sci-fi works of all time. It's really good, but the fragmented timelines are tedious and confusing to track without writing down the sequence of events as some web sites have done such as the one I linked a few pages back. I am not sure there was all that much behind the puzzlebox narrative nonsense and gallons of blood. Even with a linear timeline this season would have been a humorless slog. One of the central themes (hosts being the next, superior evolutionary step) was undercut at every turn. What is Delores supposed to be, exactly? The protagonist? Are we meant to root for her? Care about her fate? She's an opportunistic sociopath with virtually no redeeming qualities other than her intelligence and ruthless desire to survive...the exact same criticism the show levies against humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantastic_four Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, october said: What is Delores supposed to be, exactly? Last season she was the primary protagonist; this season she was the primary villain, or as Akecheta calls her, "The Deathbringer." That's not an easy rabbit to pull out of the hat for a writer. The fact that you're so confused by that in exactly the way Nolan designed for it to be confusing is representative of how good a job they did at transforming her from relatable to a villain. She's still relatable for the exact same reason she was in season one because she's just fighting against the humans running Westworld who keep her in slavery. But she kills so many humans and hosts to do it that she's ultimately the biggest villain of the show. I continued to think of her as the protagonist well into the first few episodes of the season, but once it became clear how ruthless she is I realized she's the villain of this story, not the hero. The Man in Black is another villain, but Dolores's actions during season two eclipse his by far. She kills and manipulate anyone and everyone to get what she wants. He does similarly, but on a far smaller scale. And I don't think he's killed any of his own kind like she did, at least not intentionally. I now wonder whether she ever cared about anyone but herself the entire time since she's the only host who made it out of the park. Edited July 9, 2018 by fantastic_four Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
october Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 39 minutes ago, fantastic_four said: Last season she was the primary protagonist; this season she was the primary villain, or as Akecheta calls her, "The Deathbringer." That's not an easy rabbit to pull out of the hat for a writer. The fact that you're so confused by that in exactly the way Nolan designed for it to be confusing is representative of how good a job they did at transforming her from relatable to a villain. She's still relatable for the exact same reason she was in season one because she's just fighting against the humans running Westworld who keep her in slavery. But she kills so many humans and hosts to do it that she's ultimately the biggest villain of the show. I continued to think of her as the protagonist well into the first few episodes of the season, but once it became clear how ruthless she is I realized she's the villain of this story, not the hero. The Man in Black is another villain, but Dolores's actions during season two eclipse his by far. She kills and manipulate anyone and everyone to get what she wants. He does similarly, but on a far smaller scale. And I don't think he's killed any of his own kind like she did, at least not intentionally. I now wonder whether she ever cared about anyone but herself the entire time since she's the only host who made it out of the park. Fair, but who is the protagonist then? Maeve? The same criticisms apply to her. Both of them claim superficial concern for other hosts, but they don't bat an eye at drafting legions of them to slaughter when it suits their needs. Maeve could have reprogrammed the Shoguns army to do jumping jacks or sit and cross stitch, but instead she had them butcher each other, even knowing that they were just slaves to their own programming. Programming which she could rewrite. Her fairly pointless search for her daughter doesn't offset her obvious appetite for carnage. Bernard? His loads of screen time waffled between confused and even more confused. Hard to be the rudder when I can't figure out where or when he even is at the moment. That's one of my fundamental problems with the show. The characters are interesting in fits and starts, but ultimately I don't care what happens to any of them with the exception of Akecheta and possibly William. They are either cartoonish villains, faceless set pieces, or dour, humorless and unrelatable. The few sympathetic characters on the show have either been killed, marginalized, or warped into villains. Even if I did care, what are the dramatic stakes? Anyone who is a host can be copied, or revived or reanimated, and anyone who is not a host can just be retconned into one. That works as a plot device a few times, but it's been used far too much after only two seasons. It's a shame, as I think the opportunity is being squandered a bit. The show is still worth watching for the acting, sets and cinematography, but the sense of mystery (and my curiosity) have dissipated. Then again, I am bothering to discuss it and it's still better than 95% of the shows on TV, but that's not exactly a high bar to clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
