fantastic_four Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 The heroic protagonist of season two is Bernard. In season one it was Ford. On a broader scale the hosts are the protagonists, the humans the villains with a few exceptions like Dolores (goes from hero to villain) or Lee Sizemore (goes from villain to hero). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
october Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 1 minute ago, fantastic_four said: The heroic protagonist of season two is Bernard. In season one it was Ford. On a broader scale the hosts are the protagonists, the humans the villains with a few exceptions like Dolores (goes from hero to villain) or Lee Sizemore (goes from villain to hero). The hosts are making for poor protagonists, Bernard included. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
october Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 Ultimately it doesn't matter, as works without clear protagonists/antagonists can be as good or better than shows where roles are more defined. It's more to do with the weakness of the characters themselves and less to do with whether or not they have a defined good/evil alignment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantastic_four Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 (edited) 37 minutes ago, october said: The hosts are making for poor protagonists, Bernard included. He's not likable, but he's heroic. On a separate note, the main hanging thread I was very surprised they didn't follow was the likely fact that Charlotte is Arnold's kid. We assume that he's a boy because he calls the kid "Charlie," but that can also be a nickname for Charlotte, and we don't know which of Bernard's memories were real from Arnold's life and which weren't so the real Charlie may not have died from cancer. More importantly the resemblance between the kid and Tessa Thompson is clear and obvious as shown in the picture below. The timeframe also works out since Tessa Thompson is 34, Arnold died about 30 years ago, and the kid looks to be about 8 or 9, meaning that Charlotte Hale could easily have been the same kid who would be close to 40 during the show. I kept expecting them to reveal it throughout season two, but now she's dead and they never even mentioned it. Why'd they let this one just dangle as an obvious possibility once you notice the resemblances? Did they plan to use it while working on season one but then later decided not to? Edited July 9, 2018 by fantastic_four Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantastic_four Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, october said: Ultimately it doesn't matter, as works without clear protagonists/antagonists can be as good or better than shows where roles are more defined. It's more to do with the weakness of the characters themselves and less to do with whether or not they have a defined good/evil alignment. Yea. A prime example is Breaking Bad which has no heroic protagonist, just a villain protagonist. The closest character to a hero in that story is Walter's cop brother-in-law. You can make the case that Dolores is also a villain protagonist, but since Bernard is there doing mostly-heroic things it seems more fitting to call him the protagonist and her the antagonist. Edited July 9, 2018 by fantastic_four Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
october Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 9 minutes ago, fantastic_four said: He's not likable, but he's heroic. On a separate note, the main hanging thread I was very surprised they didn't follow was the likely fact that Charlotte is Arnold's kid. We assume that he's a boy because he calls the kid "Charlie," but that can also be a nickname for Charlotte, and we don't know which of Bernard's memories were real from Arnold's life and which weren't so the real Charlie may not have died from cancer. More importantly the resemblance between the kid and Tessa Thompson is clear and obvious as shown in the picture below. I kept expecting them to reveal it throughout season two, but now she's dead and they never even mentioned it. Why'd they let this one just dangle as an obvious possibility once you notice the resemblances? Maybe a set up and discarded reveal? I get the distinct sense that they are making this up as they go along, an approach that is unsustainable in the long run when things are this complex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantastic_four Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 19 minutes ago, october said: Maybe a set up and discarded reveal? I get the distinct sense that they are making this up as they go along, an approach that is unsustainable in the long run when things are this complex. Lisa Joy said they planned out the major plot points from the start and are making up the smaller ones as they go. That's the way Damon Lindelof wrote "Lost," too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drummy Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 Making up the smaller plot points as they go is a major loser (to me). The only way these shows reel us in and KEEP our interest is to show us iron-clad logic, narrative momentum, and delightful epiphanies all the way from Episode 1 to the finale. 'Lost' really struggled to make any kind of sense by season 5 or so, and Westworld is already losing me. The audience needs someone to root for, not just sort of admire from a distance for their resilience or their desire to be human. The whole show is long on theme, short on characterization. If Bernard is the hero, which I can get behind, it ends up being frustrating to watch him bumble and mumble his way through a 10-season episode. Despite the intense body count juxtaposed with the poetic language, the show actually lacks stakes. I'd give Season 2 a grade of B-. Dan october 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantastic_four Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 Just now, Drummy said: Making up the smaller plot points as they go is a major loser (to me). The only way these shows reel us in and KEEP our interest is to show us iron-clad logic, narrative momentum, and delightful epiphanies all the way from Episode 1 to the finale. 'Lost' really struggled to make any kind of sense by season 5 or so, and Westworld is already losing me. Disagree entirely; they only need to map out the main story points, not write every screenplay for every season a series could ever have. That's an unrealistic expectation no series will EVER live up to given that they never know how many seasons they'll get funding for. All any mystery-based show can do is outline the major points. I also agree with Lisa Joy's point that ideas always develop over time so to think you're going to have your best ideas prior to season 1 and not think up better ones as you go just isn't the way it's ever going to work. An iterative design for a multi-year series is just a better way to write. Lost didn't unravel, people just didn't like the story Lindelof always had in mind. I get why, and I didn't entirely like it myself either. He started it with a VERY realistic, character-driven story, but he always had the supernatural elements planned to be revealed over time and they were always there. People just didn't like what he had in mind, which I agree with. Lindelof is satisfied with entirely supernatural elements that don't always make rational sense, and many fans don't like that, myself included. But I enjoyed the characters enough to keep with Lost until the end. I didn't like his other major work "The Leftovers" anywhere near as much because he focused a LOT more on the supernatural there in what I found to be unsatisfying ways, but I did enjoy the film "Prometheus," although I know most people didn't. By the end of season 2 of the Leftovers I just wanted to punch every member of the Guilty Remnant in the face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
october Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 6 minutes ago, fantastic_four said: Disagree entirely; they only need to map out the main story points, not write every screenplay for every season a series could ever have. Most shows can, this one can't. Complexity demands care, which you can't generate on the fly. Plot holes are already legion, and when internal logic and consistency break down the show suffers. Game of Thrones is struggling though the same, but it has a zombie ice dragon so I give it more of a pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantastic_four Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 (edited) 14 hours ago, october said: Plot holes are already legion Such as? I heard this from DOZENS of critics about Prometheus, and almost every time that critic was wrong. With a work with a plot as complex as this, or the last two Matrix films, or Lost, or Prometheus, jumping to conclusions seems to be the norm, but until you've worked through everything you're more likely to be wrong about a plot hole than right. I'm not a big fan of plots that are as complex as the works I just listed, but I'm fine with them being available for people who are. Just like I never felt like working through a Rubik's cube but didn't curse the manufacturers for creating a puzzle that was more complex than I preferred to pursue. But I do like working through them to an extent until I get bored, similar to the way I worked through one side of a Rubik's cube as a kid, then two sides, then gave up. Edited July 10, 2018 by fantastic_four Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comicopolis Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 19 hours ago, october said: Fair, but who is the protagonist then? Maeve? The same criticisms apply to her. Both of them claim superficial concern for other hosts, but they don't bat an eye at drafting legions of them to slaughter when it suits their needs. Maeve could have reprogrammed the Shoguns army to do jumping jacks or sit and cross stitch, but instead she had them butcher each other, even knowing that they were just slaves to their own programming. Programming which she could rewrite. Her fairly pointless search for her daughter doesn't offset her obvious appetite for carnage. Bernard? His loads of screen time waffled between confused and even more confused. Hard to be the rudder when I can't figure out where or when he even is at the moment. That's one of my fundamental problems with the show. The characters are interesting in fits and starts, but ultimately I don't care what happens to any of them with the exception of Akecheta and possibly William. They are either cartoonish villains, faceless set pieces, or dour, humorless and unrelatable. The few sympathetic characters on the show have either been killed, marginalized, or warped into villains. Even if I did care, what are the dramatic stakes? Anyone who is a host can be copied, or revived or reanimated, and anyone who is not a host can just be retconned into one. That works as a plot device a few times, but it's been used far too much after only two seasons. It's a shame, as I think the opportunity is being squandered a bit. The show is still worth watching for the acting, sets and cinematography, but the sense of mystery (and my curiosity) have dissipated. Then again, I am bothering to discuss it and it's still better than 95% of the shows on TV, but that's not exactly a high bar to clear. This in a nutshell. I wanted this show to be so much better than it is, especially after the first season, but ultimately I don't care about any of the characters, no mater how clever the plot thinks it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
october Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 2 hours ago, fantastic_four said: Such as? I heard this from DOZENS of critics about Prometheus, and almost every time that critic was wrong. With a work with a plot as complex as this, or the last two Matrix films, or Lost, or Prometheus, jumping to conclusions seems to be the norm, but until you've worked through everything you're more likely to be wrong about a plot hole than right. I'm not a big fan of plots that are as complex as the works I just listed, but I'm fine with them being available for people who are. Just like I never felt like working through a Rubik's cube but didn't curse the manufacturers for creating a puzzle that was more complex than I preferred to pursue. But I do like working through them to an extent until I get bored, similar to the way I worked through one side of a Rubik's cube as a kid, then two sides, then gave up. The way guns work. Host guns didn't work on humans, then they magically did. How? Did they change out the ammo? If so, when, and why was live ammo there in the first place? The way death works. Maeve gets shot up, dies. Teddy kills himself, dies. Dolores gets shot 5 times and doesn't blink. Man in Black gets shot three times, including in the stomach and then walks/rides around for half a season. What? Teddy shoots himself, dies, and has his control unit removed. Then he somehow ends up floating in the Forge lagoon. How did he get there? Someone moved his body and threw it into the lagoon along with the hosts that uploaded themselves? Why? When? Dolores goes from wanting to destroy the hosts to saving them....with nothing in between. She goes from shooting Bernard in the head to rebuilding him....with nothing in between. ...and don't even get me started on finances. The whole themepark conceit makes ZERO sense. Something as elaborate as what's shown would cost hundreds of billions to build. How would they possibly hope to recoup that from guests? Apparently tickets cost $40,000 a night for the basic experience. The forge contains data on 100 million people. 100 million people paid $40,000, minimum, apiece to visit an elaborate shooting gallery/whorehouse. Yeah.....no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantastic_four Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 46 minutes ago, october said: The way guns work. Host guns didn't work on humans, then they magically did. How? Did they change out the ammo? If so, when, and why was live ammo there in the first place? The way death works. Maeve gets shot up, dies. Teddy kills himself, dies. Dolores gets shot 5 times and doesn't blink. Man in Black gets shot three times, including in the stomach and then walks/rides around for half a season. What? Teddy shoots himself, dies, and has his control unit removed. Then he somehow ends up floating in the Forge lagoon. How did he get there? Someone moved his body and threw it into the lagoon along with the hosts that uploaded themselves? Why? When? Dolores goes from wanting to destroy the hosts to saving them....with nothing in between. She goes from shooting Bernard in the head to rebuilding him....with nothing in between. ...and don't even get me started on finances. The whole themepark conceit makes ZERO sense. Something as elaborate as what's shown would cost hundreds of billions to build. How would they possibly hope to recoup that from guests? Apparently tickets cost $40,000 a night for the basic experience. The forge contains data on 100 million people. 100 million people paid $40,000, minimum, apiece to visit an elaborate shooting gallery/whorehouse. Yeah.....no. Too much to answer in a post, but if you're going to assume that because it's not obvious that it's a plot hole, then Westworld definitely isn't a show you're ever going to enjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
october Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 (edited) 16 minutes ago, fantastic_four said: Too much to answer in a post, but if you're going to assume that because it's not obvious that it's a plot hole, then Westworld definitely isn't a show you're ever going to enjoy. There is a difference between "not obvious" and illogical on its face. It's their job to explain things that don't make sense within the context of the show, not mine. The way guns work isn't obvious because it's never addressed and makes no sense as presented. Ie: a plot hole. Edited July 10, 2018 by october Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantastic_four Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 46 minutes ago, october said: There is a difference between "not obvious" and illogical on its face. It's their job to explain things that don't make sense within the context of the show, not mine. The way guns work isn't obvious because it's never addressed and makes no sense as presented. Ie: a plot hole. There's also a difference between saying that I don't enjoy working on a Rubik's cube and claiming that Ernő Rubik screwed up and his cube has no viable solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
october Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 54 minutes ago, fantastic_four said: There's also a difference between saying that I don't enjoy working on a Rubik's cube and claiming that Ernő Rubik screwed up and his cube has no viable solution. Trying to claim that every inconsistency or implausibility is all "part of the puzzle" is a rhetorical get out of jail free card that you can apply to literally anything within the show, no matter how stupid. It's a cop out that gives the creators too much credit. The host guns randomly killing people (or not) for example isn't a "mystery" any more than the ridiculous fast travel is in Game of Thrones. It's a logical inconsistency that the writers either didn't see or have chosen to ignore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantastic_four Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, october said: The host guns randomly killing people (or not) for example isn't a "mystery" any more than the ridiculous fast travel is in Game of Thrones. It's a logical inconsistency that the writers either didn't see or have chosen to ignore. Nolan said during season one that the guns have a mechanism to determine if they're shooting at a guest or a host, and if it's a guest, the bullets are fired at a dramatically reduced velocity that won't penetrate human flesh. He said they brainstormed that as a tweak to how guns worked in the 1973 Westworld film where the guns simply wouldn't fire at all when pointed at guests. As for why some hosts can take bullets and some can't, they explicitly explained this during several episodes during both seasons--the ability for hosts to experience pain is a program that can be turned on or off. Dolores had hers turned off last season, and Maeve's was off from the time she forced the tech to tweak her settings in season one all the way up until Charlotte Hale had another tech turn it back on during the sequence where he also took away her ability to control other hosts via the mesh network. The only shot that ended up impacting the function of Dolores at all was the one that Bernard fired in the finale that impacted with her brain ball/control unit after he shot her in the head. Edited July 10, 2018 by fantastic_four Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
october Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 2 minutes ago, fantastic_four said: and Maeve's was off from the time she forced the tech to tweak her settings all the way up until Charlotte Hale had another tech turn it back on during the sequence where he also took away her ability to control other hosts via the mesh network. Obviously she didn't, as she was able to stop the psychotic hosts from reaching her using that same mesh network....right before she died from being shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantastic_four Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 1 minute ago, october said: Obviously she didn't, as she was able to stop the psychotic hosts from reaching her using that same mesh network....right before she died from being shot. I doubt she's dead. I saw her lying on the ground, then the two techs being instructed to save whatever hosts they could at the end. Since she spared both of those two techs and the Asian one seemed to sympathize with her situation I assumed she'd be the first one they worked on. They don't feel pain if their program is off, but even so there would have to be levels of damage that would disable their motor functions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
