Your most obscure WW2 covers 3 3

[Cat-Man_America]

2 minutes ago, buttock said:

A Gerber no-show didn't mean anyone thought it didn't exist, it just meant he couldn't find a copy to photograph.  

True, in most cases, but one thing doesn’t always preclude the other.  Unless Ernie or one of his contributors to the project (John Verzyl, for instance) had actually seen a copy to verify it’s existence he couldn’t be absolutely sure.  There are numerous examples of GA books which skip numbers or continue one title’s numbering as another’s.  This complicates organizing a set of books with the goal of presenting all existing covers.  

John Verzyl and I discussed this quite a bit years ago.  Ernie tried locating missing books wherever known copies were presumed to exist, but some covers weren’t available to photograph before the Photo-Journals went to press (thus the blank paste-it spots for late discoveries).  Also, there were cases where the existence of some books were in question for years after publication.

[circumstances]

This may not be obscure, but it is difficult to find. Speed Comics #21, Hitler and Tojo cover by at least Joe Simon (and possibly Jack Kirby, per Overstreet). 6 universal copies on the CGC census.

 

[KirbyJack]

Love it! And I vote yes on Kirby contribution.

[ThothAmon]

28 minutes ago, circumstances said:

This may not be obscure, but it is difficult to find. Speed Comics #21, Hitler and Tojo cover by at least Joe Simon (and possibly Jack Kirby, per Overstreet). 6 universal copies on the CGC census.

 

Doubtful that Kirby drew the characters at the top of the art but the bottom characters definitely. 

[Simon Comics]

This comic's cover is by Joe Simon. AND JOE SIMON ONLY. Jack was not involved. Simon and Kirby did alot of stuff together. However this is not one of them. This is by Joe Simon. Not by Jack. 

Whether its intentional or not, many fans and even "experts" (notice the quotations) are trying to give credit to people they favor. A big one is Jack Kirby. Just how back in the days everyone credited Stan lee with Everything. Now this is not the case. During the Simon and KIrby teaming, BOTH MEN PENCILED. It wasnt just JAck, however, jack did do the majority. BOTH MEN INKED. Howver Joe did the majority. Just because you are a Kirby fan dosent mean he did everything. 

If a piece of art was done by Simon and Kirby, most people will only credit Jack. Sometimes Joe if your lucky. And people will actually insit that they only see Jack Kirby in the art. But thats not the case. Its by Joe and Jack. However if a piece of art is by Joe SImon and Joe Simon alone, People will try to force on and say, well Jack did this and that hand looked like jack and whatever. Its just not the case. People are so willing just to give credit to people they like and not willing to give credit to people who actually should get credit. 

Another thing, Simon and kirby is SIMON AND KIRBY. not Kirby and Simon, not Jack and JOe not Jack Kirby. Its JOe SImon and Jack Kirby and its SImon and Kirby. Both men aggred that their names be in that order and thats how they always signed. STOP TRYING TO CHANGE HISTORY

[buttock]

3 hours ago, Cat-Man_America said:

True, in most cases, but one thing doesn’t always preclude the other.  Unless Ernie or one of his contributors to the project (John Verzyl, for instance) had actually seen a copy to verify it’s existence he couldn’t be absolutely sure.  There are numerous examples of GA books which skip numbers or continue one title’s numbering as another’s.  This complicates organizing a set of books with the goal of presenting all existing covers.  

John Verzyl and I discussed this quite a bit years ago.  Ernie tried locating missing books wherever known copies were presumed to exist, but some covers weren’t available to photograph before the Photo-Journals went to press (thus the blank paste-it spots for late discoveries).  Also, there were cases where the existence of some books were in question for years after publication.

But in this case, and most all others, its existence was known.  

[ThothAmon]

47 minutes ago, Simon Comics said:

STOP TRYING TO CHANGE HISTORY

I stand corrected. Now please step down off the ledge. This here has only 8 in the census. Pretty sure it’s all Gustavson. 

 

[ThothAmon]

CGC says War Heroes 3 has a “classic greytone war back cover”. I think so too.   6 on census. 

Edited June 20, 2019 by ThothAmon

[Cat-Man_America]

3 hours ago, buttock said:

But in this case, and most all others, its existence was known.  

Point taken, I don’t have the benefit of precise recollection on where the consensus was on this particular issue, just that no one was able to locate a copy to photograph prior to the Photo-Journals being published.  

[buttock]

7 hours ago, Cat-Man_America said:

Point taken, I don’t have the benefit of precise recollection on where the consensus was on this particular issue, just that no one was able to locate a copy to photograph prior to the Photo-Journals being published.  

What consensus? Gerber published the number of estimated copies in existence of every single book listed in there. If he didn't think it existed, he would have made note of that.  This book was listed as an eight, meaning there would be 10 to 20 copies estimated in existence.  

[MrBedrock]

21 hours ago, Cat-Man_America said:

21 hours ago, buttock said:

A Gerber no-show didn't mean anyone thought it didn't exist, it just meant he couldn't find a copy to photograph.  

True, in most cases, but one thing doesn’t always preclude the other.  Unless Ernie or one of his contributors to the project (John Verzyl, for instance) had actually seen a copy to verify it’s existence he couldn’t be absolutely sure.  There are numerous examples of GA books which skip numbers or continue one title’s numbering as another’s.  This complicates organizing a set of books with the goal of presenting all existing covers.  

John Verzyl and I discussed this quite a bit years ago.  Ernie tried locating missing books wherever known copies were presumed to exist, but some covers weren’t available to photograph before the Photo-Journals went to press (thus the blank paste-it spots for late discoveries).  Also, there were cases where the existence of some books were in question for years after publication.

Prize 20 was never thought non-existent. I had a vg copy years before Gerber did the Photo-Journals. It is a great book, but was never on any of the "Does This Exist?" lists.

[MrBedrock]

18 hours ago, Simon Comics said:

This comic's cover is by Joe Simon. AND JOE SIMON ONLY. Jack was not involved. Simon and Kirby did alot of stuff together. However this is not one of them. This is by Joe Simon. Not by Jack. 

Whether its intentional or not, many fans and even "experts" (notice the quotations) are trying to give credit to people they favor. A big one is Jack Kirby. Just how back in the days everyone credited Stan lee with Everything. Now this is not the case. During the Simon and KIrby teaming, BOTH MEN PENCILED. It wasnt just JAck, however, jack did do the majority. BOTH MEN INKED. Howver Joe did the majority. Just because you are a Kirby fan dosent mean he did everything. 

If a piece of art was done by Simon and Kirby, most people will only credit Jack. Sometimes Joe if your lucky. And people will actually insit that they only see Jack Kirby in the art. But thats not the case. Its by Joe and Jack. However if a piece of art is by Joe SImon and Joe Simon alone, People will try to force on and say, well Jack did this and that hand looked like jack and whatever. Its just not the case. People are so willing just to give credit to people they like and not willing to give credit to people who actually should get credit. 

Another thing, Simon and kirby is SIMON AND KIRBY. not Kirby and Simon, not Jack and JOe not Jack Kirby. Its JOe SImon and Jack Kirby and its SImon and Kirby. Both men aggred that their names be in that order and thats how they always signed. STOP TRYING TO CHANGE HISTORY

So are you saying that only Joe Simon worked on this cover?

[Cat-Man_America]

4 hours ago, buttock said:

What consensus? Gerber published the number of estimated copies in existence of every single book listed in there. If he didn't think it existed, he would have made note of that.  This book was listed as an eight, meaning there would be 10 to 20 copies estimated in existence.  

Not in total disagreement here, but having had lengthy discussions on this issue with the late John Verzyl who was more or less directly involved in the project, it was clear to me that existence estimates were based on both known and unknown factors.  Estimates were fungible when the evidence was unavailable.  Printing deadlines require taking omitted data into account.  Sometimes it’s necessary to rely on gut instincts and marginal info. Given the wealth of data, the 99.9% accuracy of the PJ’s was a phenomenal achievement. 

Based on my understanding ...as I was NOT directly involved in the project... logic and sketchy evidence played a role in books which skipped numbers.  IOW, since January and February issues of PRIZE (#18 & #19) were available to photograph and the April issue (#21) was available it strongly suggests that there should’ve been an existing PRIZE #20 for the month of March.  Someone involved in the project may have seen a copy of #20, but that’s testimonial evidence, not proof.

As for estimates of existing numbers, the discussions I had with JV left the impression that perceived scarcity was often arrived at arbitrarily, determined by a consensus of a network of dealers based on sales, inventories and experience.  If you have other evidence which sheds more light on this, please share.  I’m confident that everyone would appreciate a more detailed accounting of how this project reached fruition, myself most of all.  

Also, I don’t have an issue with anyone throwing shade in disputing misperceptions, but it’s much more useful shedding light. 

Rather than argue over which views held sway thirty years after the fact, we should acknowledge the fact that there were friendly disagreements among the principals on both existence and perceived scarcity.  The one unequivocal consensus point was that everyone involved in the project wanted to get this seminal encyclopedic work out to the collecting world.  It remains a gold standard of the collecting hobby 27 years after publication.  If only that were the case with other important works in progress like the languishing Pedigree book.

[MrBedrock]

4 minutes ago, Cat-Man_America said:

Not in total disagreement here, but having had lengthy discussions on this issue with the late John Verzyl who was more or less directly involved in the project, it was clear to me that existence estimates were based on both known and unknown factors.  Estimates were fungible when the evidence was unavailable.  Printing deadlines require taking omitted data into account.  Sometimes it’s necessary to rely on gut instincts and marginal info. Given the wealth of data, the 99.9% accuracy of the PJ’s was a phenomenal achievement. 

Based on my understanding ...as I was NOT directly involved in the project... logic and sketchy evidence played a role in books which skipped numbers.  IOW, since January and February issues of PRIZE (#18 & #19) were available to photograph and the April issue (#21) was available it strongly suggests that there should’ve been an existing PRIZE #20 for the month of March.  Someone involved in the project may have seen a copy of #20, but that’s testimonial evidence, not proof.

As for estimates of existing numbers, the discussions I had with JV left the impression that perceived scarcity was often arrived at arbitrarily, determined by a consensus of a network of dealers based on sales, inventories and experience.  If you have other evidence which sheds more light on this, please share.  I’m confident that everyone would appreciate a more detailed accounting of how this project reached fruition, myself most of all.  

Also, I don’t have an issue with anyone throwing shade in disputing misperceptions, but it’s much more useful shedding light. 

Rather than argue over which views held sway thirty years after the fact, we should acknowledge the fact that there were friendly disagreements among the principals on both existence and perceived scarcity.  The one unequivocal consensus point was that everyone involved in the project wanted to get this seminal encyclopedic work out to the collecting world.  It remains a gold standard of the collecting hobby 27 years after publication.  If only that were the case with other important works in progress like the languishing Pedigree book.

This all sounds swell, but Gerber had a budget and a deadline. He simply gave up trying to find books so he could print the darn thing. For instance, everyone knew Flash Comics 56 existed. He couldn't find one so it wasn't included. Most everyone knew that Prize 20 existed. The Mile High copy obviously existed and I imagine it was listed in Chuck's catalog, though I don't have a copy handy to check.

[Dr. Love]

JOE SIMON, AND ONLY JOE SIMON, DID THIS WHOLE DAMN BOOK

 

[Dr. Love]

6 minutes ago, MrBedrock said:

This all sounds swell, but Gerber had a budget and a deadline. He simply gave up trying to find books so he could print the darn thing. For instance, everyone knew Flash Comics 56 existed. He couldn't find one so it wasn't included. Most everyone knew that Prize 20 existed. The Mile High copy obviously existed and I imagine it was listed in Chuck's catalog, though I don't have a copy handy to check.

voila!

 

[MrBedrock]

1 minute ago, Dr. Love said:

9 minutes ago, MrBedrock said:

This all sounds swell, but Gerber had a budget and a deadline. He simply gave up trying to find books so he could print the darn thing. For instance, everyone knew Flash Comics 56 existed. He couldn't find one so it wasn't included. Most everyone knew that Prize 20 existed. The Mile High copy obviously existed and I imagine it was listed in Chuck's catalog, though I don't have a copy handy to check.

voila!

 

Bingo, Bango, Bongo!

And we all know about Verzyl's incredible ability to recall tiny informational minutia at the drop of a hat. I guarantee he knew that Prize 20 existed at the time of the Gerber Guides. Cat, is it possible that you might have misunderstood the conversation when he was giving you the full-court-press sales pitch?

[Cat-Man_America]

1 minute ago, MrBedrock said:

This all sounds swell, but Gerber had a budget and a deadline. He simply gave up trying to find books so he could print the darn thing. For instance, everyone knew Flash Comics 56 existed. He couldn't find one so it wasn't included. Most everyone knew that Prize 20 existed. The Mile High copy obviously existed and I imagine it was listed in Chuck's catalog, though I don't have a copy handy to check.

This isn’t materially different than my own conclusions.  My position on this is simply to avoid stating absolutes in lieu of the in-hand evidence available at the time.  

Everyone is an absolute. Obviously everyone didn’t know this to be a fact.  Perhaps a majority of GA collectors assumed it existed and some knew that to be the case, but that isn’t the same thing as a blanket statement of fact.  

Most everyone adds a reasonable caveat, but still assumes facts not in evidence.  If I presume that fewer than 50% of GA collectors knew this at the time, I’d probably be correct, but that would still be speculation on my part, so I’ll yield to other’s expertise and any corroborating data.  Guess I watch too many courtroom dramas on TV.  

Anyone wanna discuss crowd sizes? ...I thought not!  

[Cat-Man_America]

31 minutes ago, Dr. Love said:

voila!

 

I had Chuck’s Mile High newsprint catalog back then and bought several books from it at double guide pricing.  BTW, I’m curious, ...what year did triple OSG become a thing for Church books? This definitely adds weight to the known existence argument, but without seeing pics or the books in hand it’s still anecdotal evidence.  Also, Chuck’s grading left a lot of wiggle room for interpretation.

[MrBedrock]

40 minutes ago, Cat-Man_America said:

This isn’t materially different than my own conclusions.  My position on this is simply to avoid stating absolutes in lieu of the in-hand evidence available at the time.  

Everyone is an absolute. Obviously everyone didn’t know this to be a fact.  Perhaps a majority of GA collectors assumed it existed and some knew that to be the case, but that isn’t the same thing as a blanket statement of fact.  

Most everyone adds a reasonable caveat, but still assumes facts not in evidence.  If I presume that fewer than 50% of GA collectors knew this at the time, I’d probably be correct, but that would still be speculation on my part, so I’ll yield to other’s expertise and any corroborating data.  Guess I watch too many courtroom dramas on TV.  

Anyone wanna discuss crowd sizes? ...I thought not!  

Make's sense. Sorta like Everyone knows you are a blowhard, but Most Everyone loves you anyway.