There's a Restored 9.4 Tec 33 Blowing up on Ebay

[1950's war comics]

It seems to me that these type high grade restored comics would be the same as a key date coin that has been cleaned, re-tooled and re-lustered, but the numismatic marketplace would significantly reject a high price for any altered coin like that, and in fact would be worth less than if it had just been left alone.

[Johnny545]

I think the main issue people have Is with the restoration practice - this appears more recreation than restoration and how much is original is impossible to tell, but we can make a reasonable guess.

 

It's clear for some of these covers what your looking at is not at all original just piece fill or leaf casting and extensive paint over an uncertain amount/quality of original veneer.

 

I don't believe a book that is that heavily restored should receive exceptionally high grades.

 

I'm guessing CGC agreed, which is why these books are graded by the other company.

 

So, the second issue is with the grading company giving high grades to recreated books.

 

Doing so lends credibility to a practice that may result in a proliferation of these types of books, which I think is a mistake and bad for the hobby.

 

Of course, it may make lightly restored or unrestored books more valuable.

 

Alternatively, when there are numerous extensively restored CBCS hulk 1's in 9.2-9.8 and hundreds more that but for some restoration expense could join that club what happens to their novelty and value?

 

 

 

[VintageComics]

 

Finally, I have seen plenty of extensively restored books with 9.4 CGC labels. Plenty. Plenty. As in many, many. A lot. Including the one I referenced above. and others I had sold personally which later reappeared in "better" CGC labels. So it's disingenuous to imply that this happens only with the "other" companies.

 

As for Biljo White, the guy was a force in creating fan interest, fanzines etc. I think it makes sense to value or expect others to value books from his collection if you also place increased value upon the many, many pedigrees which are out there and whose prior owners were just kids who happened to store many books together. If a 9.4 that was found along with other high grade is to be worth more than some exactly the same copy which was stored away by itself, why can't a book owned by one of comic fandom's founders be considered more than a book which is identical in every other way except that?

 

I have owned some of Biljo's books and I can say that it did seem that he stored them in ways that led to brittling of paper. But the ones that had covers (he didn't seem to mind having coverless books if the hero wasn't featured on the cover) had fairly well presenting covers. So I would not be surprised to learn this Tec 33 had nice eye appeal in the first place and just needed (a lot) of structural support. (though I don't know this precise book well enough to say that definitively)

 

Well presenting and brittle is perfect for a complete leafcasting job. Trim it down to size and voila - instant 9.8 Biljo White special.

The resto on these books from this particular restorer is nothing like leafcasting. For one thing leafcasting is completely removable and reversible. With a brittle book leafcasting only applies to areas where paper is missing. It can improve the pliability of the paper fibers but does not necessarily change the color of the paper. With these books the brittle paper is simply being bleached white and the color is applied directly over that. There is no way to tell where the original ends and the recreated begins.

 

Is there any indication what is causing the increased pliability, if not leafcasting?

As far as I know the restorer of these books does not use any techniques that improve the structure of a book. All of the work is chemical and color. His color technique is extraordinary. But he isn't sophisticated enough in his technique to use leafcasting.

 

Thank you, Richard. This is all fascinating. I really wonder what these books feel like and smell like.

 

If I had to guess, I'd say a World's Finest #1.

[rodan57]

From those who have seen and held these books the general agreement is that the restoration is like nothing CGC has had to deal with before and therefore they decided not to grade them. CBCS did decide to grade them and gave them very high grades. So the truth is that they are not anywhere near identical in any respect to similarly graded CGC books.

 

Can you share what do you know about the restoration done to these books?

 

Does the restorer recreate the 4 color dot matrix?

 

This is a good question.

[Aman619]

He paints over the original printed covers, and doesn't recreate the dots.

[Kryptic]

The resto on these books from this particular restorer is nothing like leafcasting. For one thing leafcasting is completely removable and reversible. With a brittle book leafcasting only applies to areas where paper is missing. It can improve the pliability of the paper fibers but does not necessarily change the color of the paper. With these books the brittle paper is simply being bleached white and the color is applied directly over that. There is no way to tell where the original ends and the recreated begins.

 

Are you saying that brittle pieces are bleached and the artwork is partially recreated or that the entire interior is bleached and the comic is reprinted on blank paper?

[*matterus023*]

Seems to me that no one knows who has commented so all speculation to their methods. My advice would be before slate someone'e methods actually know what they do. Otherwise imo bad practice

 

Don't crucify me anyone just my opinion to all of this

[Jaydogrules]

From what I'm hearing it seems CGC won't grade these books because they are more "recreations" than "restorations".

 

I'm still wondering how something like this is valued. Too bad it's looking like the auction for this Tec (and the hulk 1) is being shilled.

 

-J.

[woowoo]

I was sent pre resto pics of the book by the seller. It was already restored and looked like an 8.0. Basically they maxed it out by adding layers of CT and minor additional piece infilling.

 

I read all the post. I dont know Steve B well only cons here and there but dont think he would grade the books if they were recreations.I would think if a whole page was done than it would be incomplete with recreation page right?. I did read AnkurJ post it was 8.0 E and a little more color was added to look better.

I still dont know 100% if CGC turned the books away would love to know that would change things.

[nearmint]

 

Finally, I have seen plenty of extensively restored books with 9.4 CGC labels. Plenty. Plenty. As in many, many. A lot. Including the one I referenced above. and others I had sold personally which later reappeared in "better" CGC labels. So it's disingenuous to imply that this happens only with the "other" companies.

 

As for Biljo White, the guy was a force in creating fan interest, fanzines etc. I think it makes sense to value or expect others to value books from his collection if you also place increased value upon the many, many pedigrees which are out there and whose prior owners were just kids who happened to store many books together. If a 9.4 that was found along with other high grade is to be worth more than some exactly the same copy which was stored away by itself, why can't a book owned by one of comic fandom's founders be considered more than a book which is identical in every other way except that?

 

I have owned some of Biljo's books and I can say that it did seem that he stored them in ways that led to brittling of paper. But the ones that had covers (he didn't seem to mind having coverless books if the hero wasn't featured on the cover) had fairly well presenting covers. So I would not be surprised to learn this Tec 33 had nice eye appeal in the first place and just needed (a lot) of structural support. (though I don't know this precise book well enough to say that definitively)

 

Well presenting and brittle is perfect for a complete leafcasting job. Trim it down to size and voila - instant 9.8 Biljo White special.

The resto on these books from this particular restorer is nothing like leafcasting. For one thing leafcasting is completely removable and reversible. With a brittle book leafcasting only applies to areas where paper is missing. It can improve the pliability of the paper fibers but does not necessarily change the color of the paper. With these books the brittle paper is simply being bleached white and the color is applied directly over that. There is no way to tell where the original ends and the recreated begins.

 

Is there any indication what is causing the increased pliability, if not leafcasting?

As far as I know the restorer of these books does not use any techniques that improve the structure of a book. All of the work is chemical and color. His color technique is extraordinary. But he isn't sophisticated enough in his technique to use leafcasting.

 

Thank you, Richard. This is all fascinating. I really wonder what these books feel like and smell like.

 

If I had to guess, I'd say a World's Finest #1.

 

No such thing as a World's Finest #1.

[Randall Ries]

 

Finally, I have seen plenty of extensively restored books with 9.4 CGC labels. Plenty. Plenty. As in many, many. A lot. Including the one I referenced above. and others I had sold personally which later reappeared in "better" CGC labels. So it's disingenuous to imply that this happens only with the "other" companies.

 

As for Biljo White, the guy was a force in creating fan interest, fanzines etc. I think it makes sense to value or expect others to value books from his collection if you also place increased value upon the many, many pedigrees which are out there and whose prior owners were just kids who happened to store many books together. If a 9.4 that was found along with other high grade is to be worth more than some exactly the same copy which was stored away by itself, why can't a book owned by one of comic fandom's founders be considered more than a book which is identical in every other way except that?

 

I have owned some of Biljo's books and I can say that it did seem that he stored them in ways that led to brittling of paper. But the ones that had covers (he didn't seem to mind having coverless books if the hero wasn't featured on the cover) had fairly well presenting covers. So I would not be surprised to learn this Tec 33 had nice eye appeal in the first place and just needed (a lot) of structural support. (though I don't know this precise book well enough to say that definitively)

 

Well presenting and brittle is perfect for a complete leafcasting job. Trim it down to size and voila - instant 9.8 Biljo White special.

The resto on these books from this particular restorer is nothing like leafcasting. For one thing leafcasting is completely removable and reversible. With a brittle book leafcasting only applies to areas where paper is missing. It can improve the pliability of the paper fibers but does not necessarily change the color of the paper. With these books the brittle paper is simply being bleached white and the color is applied directly over that. There is no way to tell where the original ends and the recreated begins.

 

Is there any indication what is causing the increased pliability, if not leafcasting?

As far as I know the restorer of these books does not use any techniques that improve the structure of a book. All of the work is chemical and color. His color technique is extraordinary. But he isn't sophisticated enough in his technique to use leafcasting.

 

Thank you, Richard. This is all fascinating. I really wonder what these books feel like and smell like.

 

If I had to guess, I'd say a World's Finest #1.

 

No such thing as a World's Finest #1.

 

Probably the point. Any book that has to be spray painted and has had body work done to that extent doesn't really exist anymore. Very esoteric comparison.

[Sqeggs]

 

Finally, I have seen plenty of extensively restored books with 9.4 CGC labels. Plenty. Plenty. As in many, many. A lot. Including the one I referenced above. and others I had sold personally which later reappeared in "better" CGC labels. So it's disingenuous to imply that this happens only with the "other" companies.

 

As for Biljo White, the guy was a force in creating fan interest, fanzines etc. I think it makes sense to value or expect others to value books from his collection if you also place increased value upon the many, many pedigrees which are out there and whose prior owners were just kids who happened to store many books together. If a 9.4 that was found along with other high grade is to be worth more than some exactly the same copy which was stored away by itself, why can't a book owned by one of comic fandom's founders be considered more than a book which is identical in every other way except that?

 

I have owned some of Biljo's books and I can say that it did seem that he stored them in ways that led to brittling of paper. But the ones that had covers (he didn't seem to mind having coverless books if the hero wasn't featured on the cover) had fairly well presenting covers. So I would not be surprised to learn this Tec 33 had nice eye appeal in the first place and just needed (a lot) of structural support. (though I don't know this precise book well enough to say that definitively)

 

Well presenting and brittle is perfect for a complete leafcasting job. Trim it down to size and voila - instant 9.8 Biljo White special.

The resto on these books from this particular restorer is nothing like leafcasting. For one thing leafcasting is completely removable and reversible. With a brittle book leafcasting only applies to areas where paper is missing. It can improve the pliability of the paper fibers but does not necessarily change the color of the paper. With these books the brittle paper is simply being bleached white and the color is applied directly over that. There is no way to tell where the original ends and the recreated begins.

 

Is there any indication what is causing the increased pliability, if not leafcasting?

As far as I know the restorer of these books does not use any techniques that improve the structure of a book. All of the work is chemical and color. His color technique is extraordinary. But he isn't sophisticated enough in his technique to use leafcasting.

 

Thank you, Richard. This is all fascinating. I really wonder what these books feel like and smell like.

 

If I had to guess, I'd say a World's Finest #1.

 

No such thing as a World's Finest #1.

 

Probably the point. Any book that has to be spray painted and has had body work done to that extent doesn't really exist anymore. Very esoteric comparison.

 

I think the reference was meant to be to World's Best Comics 1, which had a cardboard cover (or to the other early issues of World's Finest, which also had cardboard covers).

[sacentaur]

How can CBCS reasonably be expected to include all of this text on their "record-breaking" 9.8 labels?

 

Professional Restoration includes: tear seals, spine splits sealed, color touch, cleaned, reinforced, leprechaun charmed, pieces added to cover, pieces added to interior, staples replaced, kissed by Elvis, interior lightened, married centerfold, married cover, re-glossed, all three edges trimmed, unicorn glow.

[nearmint]

 

Finally, I have seen plenty of extensively restored books with 9.4 CGC labels. Plenty. Plenty. As in many, many. A lot. Including the one I referenced above. and others I had sold personally which later reappeared in "better" CGC labels. So it's disingenuous to imply that this happens only with the "other" companies.

 

As for Biljo White, the guy was a force in creating fan interest, fanzines etc. I think it makes sense to value or expect others to value books from his collection if you also place increased value upon the many, many pedigrees which are out there and whose prior owners were just kids who happened to store many books together. If a 9.4 that was found along with other high grade is to be worth more than some exactly the same copy which was stored away by itself, why can't a book owned by one of comic fandom's founders be considered more than a book which is identical in every other way except that?

 

I have owned some of Biljo's books and I can say that it did seem that he stored them in ways that led to brittling of paper. But the ones that had covers (he didn't seem to mind having coverless books if the hero wasn't featured on the cover) had fairly well presenting covers. So I would not be surprised to learn this Tec 33 had nice eye appeal in the first place and just needed (a lot) of structural support. (though I don't know this precise book well enough to say that definitively)

 

Well presenting and brittle is perfect for a complete leafcasting job. Trim it down to size and voila - instant 9.8 Biljo White special.

The resto on these books from this particular restorer is nothing like leafcasting. For one thing leafcasting is completely removable and reversible. With a brittle book leafcasting only applies to areas where paper is missing. It can improve the pliability of the paper fibers but does not necessarily change the color of the paper. With these books the brittle paper is simply being bleached white and the color is applied directly over that. There is no way to tell where the original ends and the recreated begins.

 

Is there any indication what is causing the increased pliability, if not leafcasting?

As far as I know the restorer of these books does not use any techniques that improve the structure of a book. All of the work is chemical and color. His color technique is extraordinary. But he isn't sophisticated enough in his technique to use leafcasting.

 

Thank you, Richard. This is all fascinating. I really wonder what these books feel like and smell like.

 

If I had to guess, I'd say a World's Finest #1.

 

No such thing as a World's Finest #1.

 

Probably the point. Any book that has to be spray painted and has had body work done to that extent doesn't really exist anymore. Very esoteric comparison.

 

I think the reference was meant to be to World's Best Comics 1, which had a cardboard cover (or to the other early issues of World's Finest, which also had cardboard covers).

 

I'm sure that's what Roy meant.

[MrBedrock]

Originally his work was performed on silver age keys. Those books ended up with incredibly stiff covers due to his heavy use of fixatives. He has gradually reduced the amount so that the covers are a little less rigid but the comparison to the World's Best cardboard cover are pretty apt.

 

And so we are clear on my stance, I really have no problem with the work itself, other than the fact that its purpose is simply to improve appearances with no concern for originality. They are his books and he can paint them up however he wants to. My issue is more with the idea that the term "apparent grade" can be used by graders to mask the fact that they can't see the line between original and recreation. If that is the case then at some point what is to stop someone from completely recreating both interior and exterior of a book? What if a really proficient restorer were to completely bleach out a Detective 26 and recreate a Detective 27 from the cover and pages? With these extreme restoration jobs the grading companies must have some way to clearly quantify how much of a book is original and how much is recreation, whether done by leafcasting or by excessive color touch.

[*matterus023*]

Originally his work was performed on silver age keys. Those books ended up with incredibly stiff covers due to his heavy use of fixatives. He has gradually reduced the amount so that the covers are a little less rigid but the comparison to the World's Best cardboard cover are pretty apt.

 

And so we are clear on my stance, I really have no problem with the work itself, other than the fact that its purpose is simply to improve appearances with no concern for originality. They are his books and he can paint them up however he wants to. My issue is more with the idea that the term "apparent grade" can be used by graders to mask the fact that they can't see the line between original and recreation. If that is the case then at some point what is to stop someone from completely recreating both interior and exterior of a book? What if a really proficient restorer were to completely bleach out a Detective 26 and recreate a Detective 27 from the cover and pages? With these extreme restoration jobs the grading companies must have some way to clearly quantify how much of a book is original and how much is recreation, whether done by leafcasting or by excessive color touch.

 

Out of curiosuty how do you know as you already mentioned you have never actually had one to hand etc?

 

Like I said before these type of comments unless backed up by evidence or 1st hand experience are a slippery slope. No disrespect MrBedrock but until you personally (as you seem to have a decent grasp of restoration methods) have inspected one of the comics yourself I would always advise to not try and belittle someone's work until you have all the answers to these questions displayed infront of you.

 

Again always hard to have a discussion through a screen without being able to convey actual tone. So once again no disrespect to anyone just think too many people are too quick to be negative nowadays.

 

 

 

 

[Johnny545]

Originally his work was performed on silver age keys. Those books ended up with incredibly stiff covers due to his heavy use of fixatives. He has gradually reduced the amount so that the covers are a little less rigid but the comparison to the World's Best cardboard cover are pretty apt.

 

And so we are clear on my stance, I really have no problem with the work itself, other than the fact that its purpose is simply to improve appearances with no concern for originality. They are his books and he can paint them up however he wants to. My issue is more with the idea that the term "apparent grade" can be used by graders to mask the fact that they can't see the line between original and recreation. If that is the case then at some point what is to stop someone from completely recreating both interior and exterior of a book? What if a really proficient restorer were to completely bleach out a Detective 26 and recreate a Detective 27 from the cover and pages? With these extreme restoration jobs the grading companies must have some way to clearly quantify how much of a book is original and how much is recreation, whether done by leafcasting or by excessive color touch.

 

Out of curiosuty how do you know as you already mentioned you have never actually had one to hand etc?

 

Like I said before these type of comments unless backed up by evidence or 1st hand experience are a slippery slope. No disrespect MrBedrock but until you personally (as you seem to have a decent grasp of restoration methods) have inspected one of the comics yourself I would always advise to not try and belittle someone's work until you have all the answers to these questions displayed infront of you.

 

Again always hard to have a discussion through a screen without being able to convey actual tone. So once again no disrespect to anyone just think too many people are too quick to be negative nowadays.

 

 

 

 

Mattreus23 can you tell us if you've had any books restored this way, held one in your hands or dealt with the seller?

 

If so, any first hand knowledge would be interesting/helpful and may shed light on things or clear up some concerns.

 

I know you've posted a number of WTB threads looking for already restored (no trimming) GA (BAT 1, TEC 31, CAP 1, PEP 22 etc.) and SA keys (Hulk 1 and AF15) so I figured it was possible you may have gone down this road, considered it or crossed path with the restorer.

 

Any thoughts appreciated.

 

[*matterus023*]

I like most/all on here (this thread) have never had any of their work to hand so I would never guess their methods or comment on how they do things positivley or negatively.

 

I would imagine as they are hitting the high 9.0's at times that they 1:- would never tell anyone their methods as would be counterproductive 2:- I would imagine have a high level of skill. I just can't see a company like CBCS willing to risk their integrity and future runnings of the company on one persons work, 3:- unless I had many years experienece in the world of restoration (or a good degree of knowledge and understanding of methods incorporated with being able to physically detect certain methods etc) I wouldn't make negative comments on anyone's work or anything else for that matter.

 

I am not trying to make myself out to look like a saint as I am far from it but instead of any/many positive comments it is like an automatic splurge of negative comments.

 

If I ever had one infront of me and had someone with me who I felt was an expert in this field and had no ulterior motives to down play the person's work, I would then have a good platform to base my opinions on. Not heresay and guess work.

 

I have recently done a project with Trace Heft who (just to fire out there as I am sure many of you know) is a top top bloke and great to work with. Also his work is brilliant. Just a cheeky shout out

[VintageComics]

I think the reference was meant to be to World's Best Comics 1, which had a cardboard cover (or to the other early issues of World's Finest, which also had cardboard covers).

 

[VintageComics]

Originally his work was performed on silver age keys. Those books ended up with incredibly stiff covers due to his heavy use of fixatives. He has gradually reduced the amount so that the covers are a little less rigid but the comparison to the World's Best cardboard cover are pretty apt.

 

 

And so we are clear on my stance, I really have no problem with the work itself, other than the fact that its purpose is simply to improve appearances with no concern for originality. They are his books and he can paint them up however he wants to. My issue is more with the idea that the term "apparent grade" can be used by graders to mask the fact that they can't see the line between original and recreation. If that is the case then at some point what is to stop someone from completely recreating both interior and exterior of a book? What if a really proficient restorer were to completely bleach out a Detective 26 and recreate a Detective 27 from the cover and pages? With these extreme restoration jobs the grading companies must have some way to clearly quantify how much of a book is original and how much is recreation, whether done by leafcasting or by excessive color touch.

 

I have had extensive discussions with some of the graders and resto guys at CGC

and that is my understanding as to CGC's concerns as well.

 

On the outset it doesn't seem like a big deal, but if you continue to follow the train of thought you end up in places you didn't expect to end up.

 

Meaning, yes, you keep going until you end up with entirely recreated books getting restored labels.

 

Which is why CGC set limits on what they consider restoration and what they don't.