STAR WARS : Episode VIII December 15, 2017 4 4

[mattn792]

2 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

They're not upset when they make a BILLION dollars at the box office. They're not firing anyone for it.

True enough.  The 2000 Ravens did still win the Super Bowl after all.  All I’m saying is Disney could redefine box office success if they steered the Star Wars franchise to its full potential.

[Prince Namor]

2 minutes ago, mattn792 said:

True enough.  The 2000 Ravens did still win the Super Bowl after all.  All I’m saying is Disney could redefine box office success if they steered the Star Wars franchise to its full potential.

It took Marvel 20 movies to hit the $2 Billion mark.

Star Wars is being built to hit a Billion a movie - one movie a year. They just happened to hit the $2 Billion mark on their first try. A decade plus of no Star Wars movies contributed to that - but no one thought they could do it EVERY movie.

Look, Rogue One is probably the best FILM, ever done in the Star Wars world. Honestly, I think the typical Star Wars movie is kinda dorky and hokey, with muppets and a pretty predictable storyline. Rogue One was bold and creative and... it did $1 Billion at the box office. 

You'd like $2 Billion, and it'd be nice to make $2 Billion.... but to plan for it? To THINK you're going to hit it?

THAT is setting yourself up for failure.

Like winning the Super Bowl 24-17 and then fans saying "Fire the coach! Last year they won 40-17!"

[Prince Namor]

18 minutes ago, mattn792 said:

True enough.  The 2000 Ravens did still win the Super Bowl after all.  All I’m saying is Disney could redefine box office success if they steered the Star Wars franchise to its full potential.

And what is it's fullest potential?

As much as I thought Phantom Menace sucked, not just because it was boring - I thought the writing sucked, some of the acting sucked, the dialogue was stiff, etc., etc. - there are tons of people who saw that movie as a kid who LOVED it. Some of those same kids are now old enough to be the one's talking chit about Last Jedi. It's all perspective. It's all subjective.

The difference is, I didn't troll Rotten Tomatoes to try and stack the vote against Phantom Menace.

[mattn792]

7 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

It took Marvel 20 movies to hit the $2 Billion mark.

Star Wars is being built to hit a Billion a movie - one movie a year. They just happened to hit the $2 Billion mark on their first try. A decade plus of no Star Wars movies contributed to that - but no one thought they could do it EVERY movie.

Look, Rogue One is probably the best FILM, ever done in the Star Wars world. Honestly, I think the typical Star Wars movie is kinda dorky and hokey, with muppets and a pretty predictable storyline. Rogue One was bold and creative and... it did $1 Billion at the box office. 

You'd like $2 Billion, and it'd be nice to make $2 Billion.... but to plan for it? To THINK you're going to hit it?

THAT is setting yourself up for failure.

Like winning the Super Bowl 24-17 and then fans saying "Fire the coach! Last year they won 40-17!"

Perhaps, but don’t plenty of teams plan, and even think, they’re going to win the championship in any given year?  And when most obviously fall short, they typically don’t fire the head coach/manager, but they do often re-tool.  

That’s precisely what should happen with Star Wars.  Regroup, re-tool, and reset the bar.

[mattn792]

2 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

And what is it's fullest potential?

As much as I thought Phantom Menace sucked, not just because it was boring - I thought the writing sucked, some of the acting sucked, the dialogue was stiff, etc., etc. - there are tons of people who saw that movie as a kid who LOVED it. Some of those same kids are now old enough to be the one's talking chit about Last Jedi. It's all perspective. It's all subjective.

The difference is, I didn't troll Rotten Tomatoes to try and stack the vote against Phantom Menace.

Not really sure why you have to bring RT trolls into this, it’s irrelevant to our conversation.

Back on point, yes not only Episode I, but also II and III suck.  Poor acting, poor character development, poor writing, poor dialogue, the gamut.  TLJ suffers the same fate, and it shouldn’t have happened.

VII handed Disney a goldmine - the return of Luke Skywalker.  THE character.  Easily should have matched TFA’s box office.  Instead, Luke was a brooding pre-teenish twerp who drank raw green milk.  While his sister was flying around in space.  Mind boggling idiocy to most longtime fans.  Word of mouth/internet spreads, box office suffers.

[Prince Namor]

1 minute ago, mattn792 said:

Perhaps, but don’t plenty of teams plan, and even think, they’re going to win the championship in any given year?  And when most obviously fall short, they typically don’t fire the head coach/manager, but they do often re-tool.  

That’s precisely what should happen with Star Wars.  Regroup, re-tool, and reset the bar.

Why should they? They've averaged $1 Billion a movie for 4 movies, with only one of them not hitting the mark. They've created the Universe that KK, and Iger have been talking about for the last two years. A more diverse Star Wars Universe. That's WHO Bob Iger IS.

He's getting exactly what he wants.

[mattn792]

2 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

Why should they? They've averaged $1 Billion a movie for 4 movies, with only one of them not hitting the mark. They've created the Universe that KK, and Iger have been talking about for the last two years. A more diverse Star Wars Universe. That's WHO Bob Iger IS.

He's getting exactly what he wants.

They “diversified” with VII.  They put out an awful movie with VIII.

[Prince Namor]

1 minute ago, mattn792 said:

Not really sure why you have to bring RT trolls into this, it’s irrelevant to our conversation.

 

Because I accepted those movies blew and went on with my life, and today's SW fans just have to keep going on about this.

1 minute ago, mattn792 said:

Back on point, yes not only Episode I, but also II and III suck.  Poor acting, poor character development, poor writing, poor dialogue, the gamut.  TLJ suffers the same fate, and it shouldn’t have happened.

 

But lots of SW fans LOVE those movies. No re-tooling needed.

1 minute ago, mattn792 said:

VII handed Disney a goldmine - the return of Luke Skywalker.  THE character.  Easily should have matched TFA’s box office.  Instead, Luke was a brooding pre-teenish twerp who drank raw green milk.  

I love what they did with Luke in it.

1 minute ago, mattn792 said:

While his sister was flying around in space.  Mind boggling idiocy to most longtime fans.  Word of mouth/internet spreads, box office suffers.

It didn't suffer. It met it's opening weekend expectations. It's one of 36 movies in history to break $1 Billion Worldwide. 

[Prince Namor]

2 minutes ago, mattn792 said:

They “diversified” with VII.  They put out an awful movie with VIII.

#1 Dvd/Blu-Ray seller of the year!

[mattn792]

1 minute ago, Chuck Gower said:

#1 Dvd/Blu-Ray seller of the year!

The 2000 Ravens of DVD sales.

[mattn792]

5 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

Because I accepted those movies blew and went on with my life, and today's SW fans just have to keep going on about this.

You’re still here retorting every nay sayer, why not just go on with your post-VIII life as well then?

[Prince Namor]

1 minute ago, mattn792 said:

The 2000 Ravens of DVD sales.

No no no... The Last Jedi will sell on Blu/Dvd and Digital for our ENTIRE lives. It will never stop selling.

Look how we view the prequels.... terrible, right? Yet they SELL. Again, and again, and again. They always will while we're alive.

Lucas made HIS movies, the way HE wanted, and they sell, sell, sell.

Disney looks at it the same way. We're going to make the movies WE want. They will, sell, sell, sell. 

Only a fool listens to online complainers about how to change a movie that did $1 BILLION at the box office.

If you can make $1 BILLION at the box office doing it YOUR way - WHY would you ever change?

[Prince Namor]

2 minutes ago, mattn792 said:

You’re still here retorting every nay sayer, why not just go on with your post-VIII life as well then?

I HATE misinformation. And when people mislead and try to manipulate with BS, it bothers me.

Saying that KK is getting fired or that all Star Wars movies are on hold is just a blatant lie, being passed around by people so they... I don't know, so they can feel good about themselves over a silly movie, I guess.

[bababooey]

1 hour ago, Chuck Gower said:

Tom Brady and Peyton Manning neither one could throw 50 TD's a season.

Brady threw for 50 TD's in 2007.  

-bababooey <--- non-star wars fan, just here to fact check sports analogies 

go on...

[mattn792]

1 minute ago, Chuck Gower said:

I HATE misinformation. And when people mislead and try to manipulate with BS, it bothers me.

Saying that KK is getting fired or that all Star Wars movies are on hold is just a blatant lie, being passed around by people so they... I don't know, so they can feel good about themselves over a silly movie, I guess.

Chuck, it’s the internet.  Misinformation is everywhere.  You’re never going to win that war.  

You and I will most likely never agree on this movie, but at least we are arguing opinions on how to interpret the facts and the direction forward.  Nothing you or I do is going to stop a certain percentage from baselessly saying KK is going to be fired and charged with grand larceny in the Northern District of Iowa, or that George Lucas has rejoined the production crew and IX will feature midichlorians saving the Millenium Falcon from the clutches of Jaba the Hut, Jr.  That banal nonsense just is what it is.

[bababooey]

I see now that it reads 'a season' as in "consistently" tossing for 50 TD's not 'in a season'    

[Larryw7]

14 hours ago, Chuck Gower said:

That rumor was started by the clickbait site Collider, and numerous sources picked it up as a way to get people to come to THEIR sites. As Collider put it "Sources with knowledge of the situation". LOL.

There's no confirmation by Disney this is true and Rian Johnson claims it is fanboy fabrication. 

Good, because I want my Obi-Wan movie.

[Prince Namor]

6 hours ago, mattn792 said:

Chuck, it’s the internet.  Misinformation is everywhere.  You’re never going to win that war.  

You and I will most likely never agree on this movie, but at least we are arguing opinions on how to interpret the facts and the direction forward.  Nothing you or I do is going to stop a certain percentage from baselessly saying KK is going to be fired and charged with grand larceny in the Northern District of Iowa, or that George Lucas has rejoined the production crew and IX will feature midichlorians saving the Millenium Falcon from the clutches of Jaba the Hut, Jr.  That banal nonsense just is what it is.

I have no illusions about saving the internet. But if it happens right in front of me, I'm going to respond.

If I'm walking down the street and some guy is cussing in front of somebodies kids, I'm going to say, "Yo, dude, chill out, there's kids here." Doesn't mean I'm going to try and stop the world from cussing.

[zhamlau]

In the end, this really winds up with just people having differing opinions and pretending everyone else is wrong. The money the films made is fact (mostly, I still wonder if some of these numbers are sometimes fudged by the studio at times with creative accounting but that's a different story lol). The first two movies had a more competitive marketplace to fight and managed to make nearly 100% more in ticket sales and DVD sales then the last two. That's a fact. We can argue if that's problematic for Disney or if they will just accept that greatly reduced revenue and not question it. But the fact is the TJL and its follow up act Solo came into what should have been favorable conditions and managed to vastly under perform the first two in ticket sales and DVD/Rentals combined. Why that happened again we can debate all we want with no one being able to actually prove anything, just make arguments in their favor.

No one here is a guardian of truth, we are just interpreters of facts and the opinions of other theorists.

No one knows if KK is going to be fired or not, no one here was in the room. There are reports it was seriously looked at, but if you want you can down play them and write them off. Again no one here was at any of those meetings so it's all speculation. Disney would never admit to having the conversation either, It looks bad and unsteady and no company with shareholders would want that.

I think this is probably the most honest assessment any of us can make. I personally think Disney looks at that as lost revenue and ties it to fan reactions and extreme displeasure with the way KK is steering the franchise. Others might think Disney just looks at it as an unusually steep drop off and completely unrelated waning fan interest. To each their own.

There were films in production that have on some level, after Solo, been put on hold/not moving forward at this time. I think that part, with the statements of the Rogue one art Director and Ewan, is not in question. I think its clearly tied to the lack of fan support of Solo which i think would be hard to argue against, but again all ANYONE here can do is speculate on this front. Why solo , a quality movie, did so poorly is up to speculation. I think like many think its due to fan displeasure with its lead in movie TJL. That not going to this movie was their way of showing Disney they aren't pleased with how this is being steered. Again, we can debate the causes all we want.

If you feel the franchise is in a healthy place and has nearly full fan support and a strong future based on the leadership of KK so be it, everyone's entitled to their interpretation. I feel otherwise as do many others. Time will tell.

 

Edited August 29, 2018 by zhamlau

[Prince Namor]

59 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

In the end, this really winds up with just people having differing opinions and pretending everyone else is wrong.

I never had a problem with your opinion. You can believe until the end of time whatever you choose. 

But when you present it as fact, there’s a  chance someone may call it into question. 

No one knows if they had a secret meeting to let Kevin Smith run the Star Wars Universe - but if I speculate - and say ‘People are saying’ - that doesn’t make it anymore true. 

59 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

The money the films made is fact (mostly, I still wonder if some of these numbers are sometimes fudged by the studio at times with creative accounting but that's a different story lol).

You think they inflate their numbers to pay more taxes?

or deflate their numbers to pay less in taxes and risk going to jail for years? The head of Disney is wealthy enough he doesn’t need to risk that. 

59 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

The first two movies had a more competitive marketplace to fight and managed to make nearly 100% more in ticket sales and DVD sales then the last two. That's a fact.

That’s NOT a fact. TFA did 34-37% more at the box office.

DVD/BluRay Sales aren’t finished yet. 

It also had a decade+ gap between a previous Star Wars movie. 

59 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

We can argue if that's problematic for Disney or if they will just accept that greatly reduced revenue and not question it. But the fact is the TJL and its follow up act Solo came into what should have been favorable conditions and managed to vastly under perform the first two in ticket sales and DVD/Rentals combined.

If you thought each of these movies would make $2 Billion, you haven’t been paying attention to the Box Office.

Thus far, Marvel, who is making some of the best Sci-Fi action movies ever made, has only done it ONCE and they’ve had 20+ shots at it.

And TLJ did not under perform in DVD/BluRay, it’s the #1 selling title of the year and it still has Christmas to add to its total. 

59 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

Why that happened again we can debate all we want with no one being able to actually prove anything, just make arguments in their favor.

Yep. As long as ‘People are saying’ isn’t confused with fact. 

59 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

No one here is a guardian of truth, we are just interpreters of facts and the opinions of other theorists.

That’s right. So when you present BS as fact someone will call it out. 

59 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

No one knows if KK is going to be fired or not, no one here was in the room. There are reports it was seriously looked at, but if you want you can down play them and write them off. Again no one here was at any of those meetings so it's all speculation. Disney would never admit to having the conversation either, It looks bad and unsteady and no company with shareholders would want that.

There’s no proof there was even a meeting. There’s no proof of anything having happened. 

And if Disney lost so much money as you claim - changing things would be exactly what shareholders would want. 

But what do shareholders actually have to do with it? As a Disney shareholder your profit is based off the companies success... not one movie franchise.

It’s producers that actually put the money together - and I guarantee you - it’s put together with projection forecasts closer to $1 Billion Worldwide than it ever EVER would be towards $2 Billion. 

Shareholders have nothing to do with it. 

59 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

I think this is probably the most honest assessment any of us can make. I personally think Disney looks at that as lost revenue and ties it to fan reactions

LOL. 

59 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

and extreme displeasure with the way KK is steering the franchise.

You need to read some Bob Iger interviews. He’s not who you think he is. 

59 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

Others might think Disney just looks at it as an unusually steep drop off and completely unrelated waning fan interest. To each their own.

It’s unusually steep because no makes $2 Billion movies. 

59 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

There were films in production that have on some level, after Solo, been put on hold/not moving forward at this time.

Episode IX, the planned next movie is on schedule. 

The other stuff is far enough in the future  that there’s nothing to see yet. 

59 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

I think that part, with the statements of the Rogue one art Director and Ewan, is not in question. I think its clearly tied to the lack of fan support of Solo which i think would be hard to argue against, but again all ANYONE here can do is speculate on this front. Why solo , a quality movie, did so poorly is up to speculation. I think like many think its due to fan displeasure with its lead in movie TJL. That not going to this movie was their way of showing Disney they aren't pleased with how this is being steered. Again, we can debate the causes all we want.

That’s what naysayers want it to be. 

For me, I have no interest in the character as portrayed by someone who didn’t interest me in going to see it. 

It was an Infinity War summer.

59 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

If you feel the franchise is in a healthy place and has nearly full fan support and a strong future based on the leadership of KK so be it, everyone's entitled to their interpretation. I feel otherwise as do many others. Time will tell.

 

I don’t know what you mean by a ‘healthy place’. Episode IX will do over $1 Billion and be a success. That’s healthy. Anyone who thinks it’s not is unfamiliar with the movie industry. 

As far as full fan support - LOL - you can’t please everyone. No matter what type of movie they do there will be groups of people person_without_enough_empathyin’ about it. 

You forget - TFA’s had a huge backlash of people who complained it was the same old story. They just got drowned out by the SW fans so hungry for a movie after a decade + that they went and saw it multiple times. 

Studios make blockbuster movies how they want to make them. Based upon attracting the largest audience they can. They paid BILLIONS to own the franchise, they’re going to do it their way. 

It has nothing to do with what a fraction of the fan base ‘thinks’.