modern ASM #667 variant sells for $9K

[mysterio]

1. He is the only one who has claimed to have tried to track down the history of this book's print run. Whether or not he actually spoke with someone from publishing, printing, distribution, I have heard from no one else on here who has claimed to have tried to research it and report back with proof of a higher print run. Some of us just don't have that much time in our lives and there are probably lots of dead ends like the print or distributor records on the order for the #667 not being kept and frankly them not caring to keep track.

 

All this is well and good, but you're equating effort with results and I'm not seeing any evidence that his effort has produced any reliable data on the print run of this book. If effort is your measuring stick then the guys on "Tracking Bigfoot" ought to be called in on the case of the missing ASM #667 variants.

 

[Prince Namor]

As someone that spends a lot of time in Modern, I'd just like to ask all of you fine folks from General to keep this thread going. It seems quieter there the last few days, there's been a down tick in the amount of... speculative fan fiction... concerning the providence and rationale behind a handful of rarer variant's "FMV".

 

 

- as best I can determine, "FMV" is arrived at by taking the word of a handful of people who claim to have sold a specific book for an unsubstantiated sum in a private setting. I think they rely on the pinky swear to ensure veracity.

 

Since private transactions for such high-end items are on the rise,

 

How can you even make this claim? There is absolutely zero proof that this is true. There is no WAY for anyone to possibly know if this is true.

 

it will effect both Ebay and GPA. I don't think anyone cares if Ebay is gipped out of a percentage,

 

I guarantee you there is at least one person who does.

 

but it will over time have a negative effect on GPA.

 

If GPA is able tor record enough listed transactions of a book through the sources they use, what happens privately makes no difference to averages they show.

 

For example, the last recorded sale of an ASM #667 in 9.8 was $1,100 in May 2013. This is of course now an outdated and even farcical reality.

 

It's still more reliable than what two unknowns want to tell us a book sold for behind closed doors.

 

If these private sales become a trend, GPA might have to consider accepting certified documentation from individuals to keep data relevant.

 

No chance. It would destroy their credibility in an instant.

[Prince Namor]

1. He is the only one who has claimed to have tried to track down the history of this book's print run. Whether or not he actually spoke with someone from publishing, printing, distribution, I have heard from no one else on here who has claimed to have tried to research it and report back with proof of a higher print run. Some of us just don't have that much time in our lives and there are probably lots of dead ends like the print or distributor records on the order for the #667 not being kept and frankly them not caring to keep track.

 

All this is well and good, but you're equating effort with results and I'm not seeing any evidence that his effort has produced any reliable data on the print run of this book. If effort is your measuring stick then the guys on "Tracking Bigfoot" ought to be called in on the case of the missing ASM #667 variants.

 

Exactly.

 

Just because you spend x amount of time trying to prove Bigfoot exists, doesn't mean Bigfoot exists.

What is with these modern collectors?

 

PROOF has nothing even to do with what we FEEL.... it has to do with critical reasoning skills and seeing exactly what IS known and making a determination based upon it.

 

The best way to determine TRUTH, is to make a statement and then do everything you can to prove it ISN'T true, until all you have left is either a truth, an untruth, or an inconclusive statement.

 

There are WAY too many people on this forum who start with a CONCLUSION, and then build their reality to try and make it fit. It's poor reasoning and poor SCIENCE.

 

[FlyingDonut]

Allow me to put another quarter into the carousel.

 

While Jaydog may have lost a bunch of credibility in his earlier threads where he was speculating and speaking without a filter on how and why this book is rare (probably trying to figure it out to himself as much as trying convince others of what he was seeing or not seeing) there is merit in at least 2 things from Jaydog.

 

1. He is the only one who has claimed to have tried to track down the history of this book's print run. Whether or not he actually spoke with someone from publishing, printing, distribution, I have heard from no one else on here who has claimed to have tried to research it and report back with proof of a higher print run. Some of us just don't have that much time in our lives and there are probably lots of dead ends like the print or distributor records on the order for the #667 not being kept and frankly them not caring to keep track.

 

2. 29 slabs in 6 years for a book that sells in the $1000s is very low. Sure 6 years might seem too short for comics back before the internet era but in the internet and comic movie hype age, 6 years is an eon. There are more 9.8 copies in the census of some more significant Silver Age issues spideys that sell for less and those have had the opportunity for CPR resubmits.

Breakdown for 667 Dell Otto:

NM/MT: 14

NM+: 9

NM: 4

NM-: 1

VF/NM: 1

 

I think the proof is in the pudding or the census in the extremely short supply of low grade copies.

For a book that sells so well, why aren't we seeing more low grade copies in the census or raw on ebay? If the demand is so high and there are so many out there, people would be slabbing the lower grades as well like they do with WD 1 or even AF15s.

 

I hunt the HTF variants for fun. I seriously actively hunt for this particular book. There are only 2 other HTF modern ASM variants I've had a more difficult time finding in 9.8 but the difference is that I can find those 2 in lower grades more readily in the wild. Over the last 3 years I have been all over the US and Canada at shows, dealers, and poured through countless boxes of ASM and have NEVER come across a single 667 Dell Otto Variant in the wild. I hit every store in Chicago, Manhattan, Dallas/Ft Worth, Virginia (yes the whole state), DC, half of MD, Austin, Edmonton, Montreal, San Diego, Boulder, Denver, Phoenix, Boston, and St. Paul yet nothing. I was at Heroes con last year and like at many shows none of the dealers had ever seen one except one I spoke with supposedly spoke to a collector in attendance with a raw copy from their personal collection submit it to CGC which might have been one of the newest additions to the census but that was it. I have left lists with dealers and including big ones like My Comic Shop and Midtown comics and have never seen it come up in a notification. The only place I've seen it is on ebay once or twice a year or on here but at this point the cat is out of the bag and it ain't cheap. At this point, I will pour through a collector's modern ASM drek just to see if they might have a 667 Dell'Otto tucked away. Nothing yet.

 

Yeah, maybe these books are hiding tucked away in dealer backstock or storage or ASM collectors who don't yet know what they have or they do and not ready to part with it even for $9k. But if there are hundreds of copies in the wild, money talks and should be bringing more of them out especially the beat to hell copies.

 

This leads me to the following conclusions:

Either

1. This book does exist in the hundreds or thousands but everyone is hoarding theirs or are completely clueless about what they have.

2. There's a bunch of boxes of these stashed away (or were until something happened) in a warehouse somewhere that Marvel, diamond, Q4 printing hasn't gotten around to unloading despite all the hype.

3. There really are less than a few hundred copies.

 

Which seems like the more plausible explanation? How about this. How about a couple of challenges:

1. If you happen to locate the elusive #667 Dell Otto variant in the wild take a photo and post to show that it really isn't as rare or HTF as Jaydog, myself, and a few others seem to think it is.

 

2. Call, write, visit Marvel, Diamond, Q4 or whomever the printers in Canada, US, and Mexico were at the time and ask them if they can track down the total printed copies ordered/executed/delivered and see if you can locate them. Offer $10, 50, or maybe 100/copy as an incentive if they can provide you with at least 1 case.

 

Until then I'm still leaning on it being freakishly rare but hopefull that missing hoard will finally be discovered and come to market.

 

So what are the other two ASM variants? That's the real question in this post.

[Buzzetta]

Allow me to put another quarter into the carousel.

 

While Jaydog may have lost a bunch of credibility in his earlier threads where he was speculating and speaking without a filter on how and why this book is rare (probably trying to figure it out to himself as much as trying convince others of what he was seeing or not seeing) there is merit in at least 2 things from Jaydog.

 

1. He is the only one who has claimed to have tried to track down the history of this book's print run. Whether or not he actually spoke with someone from publishing, printing, distribution, I have heard from no one else on here who has claimed to have tried to research it and report back with proof of a higher print run. Some of us just don't have that much time in our lives and there are probably lots of dead ends like the print or distributor records on the order for the #667 not being kept and frankly them not caring to keep track.

 

2. 29 slabs in 6 years for a book that sells in the $1000s is very low. Sure 6 years might seem too short for comics back before the internet era but in the internet and comic movie hype age, 6 years is an eon. There are more 9.8 copies in the census of some more significant Silver Age issues spideys that sell for less and those have had the opportunity for CPR resubmits.

Breakdown for 667 Dell Otto:

NM/MT: 14

NM+: 9

NM: 4

NM-: 1

VF/NM: 1

 

I think the proof is in the pudding or the census in the extremely short supply of low grade copies.

For a book that sells so well, why aren't we seeing more low grade copies in the census or raw on ebay? If the demand is so high and there are so many out there, people would be slabbing the lower grades as well like they do with WD 1 or even AF15s.

 

I hunt the HTF variants for fun. I seriously actively hunt for this particular book. There are only 2 other HTF modern ASM variants I've had a more difficult time finding in 9.8 but the difference is that I can find those 2 in lower grades more readily in the wild. Over the last 3 years I have been all over the US and Canada at shows, dealers, and poured through countless boxes of ASM and have NEVER come across a single 667 Dell Otto Variant in the wild. I hit every store in Chicago, Manhattan, Dallas/Ft Worth, Virginia (yes the whole state), DC, half of MD, Austin, Edmonton, Montreal, San Diego, Boulder, Denver, Phoenix, Boston, and St. Paul yet nothing. I was at Heroes con last year and like at many shows none of the dealers had ever seen one except one I spoke with supposedly spoke to a collector in attendance with a raw copy from their personal collection submit it to CGC which might have been one of the newest additions to the census but that was it. I have left lists with dealers and including big ones like My Comic Shop and Midtown comics and have never seen it come up in a notification. The only place I've seen it is on ebay once or twice a year or on here but at this point the cat is out of the bag and it ain't cheap. At this point, I will pour through a collector's modern ASM drek just to see if they might have a 667 Dell'Otto tucked away. Nothing yet.

 

Yeah, maybe these books are hiding tucked away in dealer backstock or storage or ASM collectors who don't yet know what they have or they do and not ready to part with it even for $9k. But if there are hundreds of copies in the wild, money talks and should be bringing more of them out especially the beat to hell copies.

 

This leads me to the following conclusions:

Either

1. This book does exist in the hundreds or thousands but everyone is hoarding theirs or are completely clueless about what they have.

2. There's a bunch of boxes of these stashed away (or were until something happened) in a warehouse somewhere that Marvel, diamond, Q4 printing hasn't gotten around to unloading despite all the hype.

3. There really are less than a few hundred copies.

 

Which seems like the more plausible explanation? How about this. How about a couple of challenges:

1. If you happen to locate the elusive #667 Dell Otto variant in the wild take a photo and post to show that it really isn't as rare or HTF as Jaydog, myself, and a few others seem to think it is.

 

2. Call, write, visit Marvel, Diamond, Q4 or whomever the printers in Canada, US, and Mexico were at the time and ask them if they can track down the total printed copies ordered/executed/delivered and see if you can locate them. Offer $10, 50, or maybe 100/copy as an incentive if they can provide you with at least 1 case.

 

Until then I'm still leaning on it being freakishly rare but hopefull that missing hoard will finally be discovered and come to market.

 

So what are the other two ASM variants? That's the real question in this post.

 

I would assume the Mary Jane as Venom saying, "Face it Tiger" is one of the variants.

[Buzzetta]

 

Since private transactions for such high-end items are on the rise,

 

How can you even make this claim? There is absolutely zero proof that this is true. There is no WAY for anyone to possibly know if this is true.

 

Chuck, I do believe that private transactions are on the rise and not just for high-end items but items across the board. People are discovering new outlets such as Facebook groups and message boards to connect with collectors all the time. People are networking to make sales. I was contacted today about a book that I have that someone is interested in. A lot of my sales in the last year without using eBay or an Auction House as a third party. Maybe this is what he meant.

 

 

For example, the last recorded sale of an ASM #667 in 9.8 was $1,100 in May 2013. This is of course now an outdated and even farcical reality.

 

It's still more reliable than what two unknowns want to tell us a book sold for behind closed doors.

True. We have already seen too many incidents where people manipulate GPA through fake sales.

 

If these private sales become a trend' date=' GPA might have to consider accepting certified documentation from individuals to keep data relevant. [/quote]

No chance. It would destroy their credibility in an instant.

 

That depends who qualifies as a dealer to them. They already take sales information from a few dealers. Eventually they may ask for data from a few private individuals known for possessing a few high end harder to track down books. Zaid comes to mind with some of the books that he has been offering as of late.

[Foley]

Just like in Rolex watches where we find a certain niche audience would rather buy a Rolex over a Timex watch.

 

Then there's an even more exclusive niche audience for whom Rolex is the Timex of luxury watches, and nothing less than a Patek Philippe will suffice.

 

My completely off-topic and not directed at anyone

 

[SquareChaos]

The truth of the matter is that logic is dead. People can spend whatever they want for anything, and anyone questioning the "value" that something holds from a "why" perspective is seen as somehow gross and offensive for daring to "judge" what someone collects - even though these are clearly two very different things.

 

 

[Prince Namor]

 

Since private transactions for such high-end items are on the rise,

 

How can you even make this claim? There is absolutely zero proof that this is true. There is no WAY for anyone to possibly know if this is true.

 

Chuck, I do believe that private transactions are on the rise and not just for high-end items but items across the board. People are discovering new outlets such as Facebook groups and message boards to connect with collectors all the time. People are networking to make sales. I was contacted today about a book that I have that someone is interested in. A lot of my sales in the last year without using eBay or an Auction House as a third party. Maybe this is what he meant.

 

Private transactions have always gone on in numbers that we have no idea of though.

 

My point is, awareness isn't always an indication of 'what IS'.

 

As an example, if some 15 year old discovers social media tomorrow for the first time, he's inclined to think, "My God, the world has become so much more complicated..."

 

Well, for HIM it has, but it doesn't necessarily hold true for the rest of the world, and everyone else.

 

Because now we can see and hear about more private transactions that occur, thanks to an easier (and faster) to communicate world, it doesn't mean there are more. We're just privy to hearing and seeing more happen.

 

There's no way to put a number on what actually was before and what actually is now.

 

 

If these private sales become a trend, GPA might have to consider accepting certified documentation from individuals to keep data relevant.

No chance. It would destroy their credibility in an instant.

 

That depends who qualifies as a dealer to them. They already take sales information from a few dealers. Eventually they may ask for data from a few private individuals known for possessing a few high end harder to track down books. Zaid comes to mind with some of the books that he has been offering as of late.

 

Absolutely.

[Jaydogrules]

The truth of the matter is that logic is dead. People can spend whatever they want for anything, and anyone questioning the "value" that something holds from a "why" perspective is seen as somehow gross and offensive for daring to "judge" what someone collects - even though these are clearly two very different things.

 

 

Again with this ?

 

Who are you to "judge" anything of what anyone collects ? Why do "you" believe that a cogent explanation of a transaction that makes sense to "you", and submitted for "your" approval or acceptance of something is required to validate the value of anything? This isn't necessarily just directed at you, but- Narcissistic much? It is what it is whether you agree with it or not. Some people collect different things than you. Some people have more than you. Why does that bother you so much ?

 

Reminding you once more that while "your" logic may seem compromised, there are other people who think and collect differently than you.

 

-J.

[SquareChaos]

The truth of the matter is that logic is dead. People can spend whatever they want for anything, and anyone questioning the "value" that something holds from a "why" perspective is seen as somehow gross and offensive for daring to "judge" what someone collects - even though these are clearly two very different things.

 

 

Again with this ?

 

Who are you to "judge" anything of what anyone collects ? Why do "you" believe that your approval or acceptance of something is required to validate the value of anything? This isn't necessarily just directed at you, but- Narcissistic much? It is what it is whether you agree with it or not. Some people collect different things than you. Some people have more than you. Why does that bother you so much ?

 

Reminding you once more that while "your" logic may seem compromised, there are other people who think and collect differently than you.

 

-J.

 

See - case in point, logic is dead. People can't discern between two separate concepts.

 

Thanks for giving us a nice case study

[loadstone]

1. He is the only one who has claimed to have tried to track down the history of this book's print run. Whether or not he actually spoke with someone from publishing, printing, distribution, I have heard from no one else on here who has claimed to have tried to research it and report back with proof of a higher print run. Some of us just don't have that much time in our lives and there are probably lots of dead ends like the print or distributor records on the order for the #667 not being kept and frankly them not caring to keep track.

 

All this is well and good, but you're equating effort with results and I'm not seeing any evidence that his effort has produced any reliable data on the print run of this book. If effort is your measuring stick then the guys on "Tracking Bigfoot" ought to be called in on the case of the missing ASM #667 variants.

 

Exactly.

 

Just because you spend x amount of time trying to prove Bigfoot exists, doesn't mean Bigfoot exists.

What is with these modern collectors?

 

PROOF has nothing even to do with what we FEEL.... it has to do with critical reasoning skills and seeing exactly what IS known and making a determination based upon it.

 

The best way to determine TRUTH, is to make a statement and then do everything you can to prove it ISN'T true, until all you have left is either a truth, an untruth, or an inconclusive statement.

 

There are WAY too many people on this forum who start with a CONCLUSION, and then build their reality to try and make it fit. It's poor reasoning and poor SCIENCE.

 

I gave him credit for the effort, not results. To date, nobody on either side of this argument has been able to prove the real quantities of copies in existence.

Proof? Playoffs? , there's absolutely NO verifiable proof (to us) currently as it stands what the print run was or copies in existence are/were originally (200, 225 or 1 million). Only theories and attempts. All I gave Jaydog credit for in that 1st item was that he may be the only one on here who may have actually tried to track down that number and someone may have actually provided him with a number (fictional or otherwise). That's more effort than anyone else on here has actually claimed to have done. So I give him credit for actually trying to find proof. It's real easy to dismiss and stand on the other side where the burden of proof is not a requirement to disagree. However, I contend that his hypothesis and investigations and market availability currently do support his theory of rarity (not the true count of copies in existence). If he is able to provide a means of repeating his research for us to independently verify then I'd say his theory of rarity holds the most credibility.

 

Proof seems to be the thing everyone wants so let's agree what proof would be required to satisfy our disagreements.

1. Verified authentic purchase order request from Marvel to printer for X number of copies (Mx). This by itself is not enough. Just because Marvel requested X copies doesn't mean that's what the printer really printed depending on other circumstances.

2. Verified Inbound printing log record at the various printers used to print this exact issue showing approval to print X copies (Pix). This is a bit more reliable and along with #1 above could be used to corroborate the actual intended number of copies to be printed. However, this is also not enough since circumstances could exist that prevented X number of copies from being printed successfully.

3. Verified outbound printing log showing the actual number of copies printed (Pox) and packaged to be shipped/sold to xyz. This is perhaps the most accurate number in that it is the end result of what got printed/produced. However, this still is not enough to tell us how many copies exist due to circumstances that could have removed quantities from the market due to damage, destruction, or other loss.

4. Shipping manifesto (Sx). Whomever the various printers used to ship out the boxes of those should be able to tell us the total number of boxes shipped that day and how many made it to their destinations. This is not only good for identifying the potential for loss if shipments never made it to their destinations but can tell us where all possible quantities should have gone (i.e the next best place to look.)

5. Distributor distribution quantities (Dx). Presumably, the distributor would have a record of which stores qualified for the variant and where they shipped them to. That can be used to determine what the actual market population "should" be. If that number differs from the printer output log, the difference is what can be considered to be "hidden" or lost quantities.

 

So I would say the real "market" available quantities in existence today would be close to whatever Dx is and the number of "hidden" (warehoused) or unknown (loss) could be derived from Pox-Dx.

And the most complete explanation of what really happened along the way could be gathered from Mx-Pix-Pox-Sx-Dx showing what was intended and what actually got distributed.

 

I would first start at Marvel accounting purchasing and ordering for that copy. I would next go to the known distributors (if that's even possible today) and the shipping companies used and request all the locations and quantities shipped/delivered. Distributors and shippers should have very good accounting of all their orders and deliveries. I believe that issue came out after the major distributor consolidation so the distributors (Diamond?) should be easy to locate and inquire with.

 

If I still had my sabbatical option I would undergo this endeavor myself and write a book that only jaydog and the 28 other 667 owners would read. Anyone have some free time on their hands?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jaydogrules]

The truth of the matter is that logic is dead. People can spend whatever they want for anything, and anyone questioning the "value" that something holds from a "why" perspective is seen as somehow gross and offensive for daring to "judge" what someone collects - even though these are clearly two very different things.

 

 

Again with this ?

 

Who are you to "judge" anything of what anyone collects ? Why do "you" believe that your approval or acceptance of something is required to validate the value of anything? This isn't necessarily just directed at you, but- Narcissistic much? It is what it is whether you agree with it or not. Some people collect different things than you. Some people have more than you. Why does that bother you so much ?

 

Reminding you once more that while "your" logic may seem compromised, there are other people who think and collect differently than you.

 

-J.

 

See - case in point, logic is dead. People can't discern between two separate concepts.

 

Thanks for giving us a nice case study

 

"Your" logic is dead.

 

I collect out of passion and obsession.

 

I suspect that applies to a lot of us collectors.

 

-J.

[SquareChaos]

The truth of the matter is that logic is dead. People can spend whatever they want for anything, and anyone questioning the "value" that something holds from a "why" perspective is seen as somehow gross and offensive for daring to "judge" what someone collects - even though these are clearly two very different things.

 

 

Again with this ?

 

Who are you to "judge" anything of what anyone collects ? Why do "you" believe that your approval or acceptance of something is required to validate the value of anything? This isn't necessarily just directed at you, but- Narcissistic much? It is what it is whether you agree with it or not. Some people collect different things than you. Some people have more than you. Why does that bother you so much ?

 

Reminding you once more that while "your" logic may seem compromised, there are other people who think and collect differently than you.

 

-J.

 

See - case in point, logic is dead. People can't discern between two separate concepts.

 

Thanks for giving us a nice case study

 

"Your" logic is dead.

 

I collect out of passion and obsession.

 

I suspect that applies to a lot of us collectors.

 

-J.

 

1. I think the cover is nice

2. I think people paying the prices stated in this thread can pay these prices for it all the long day if they'd like

3. I question the value without having ill will towards anyone stepping up and acting on #2

4. What's the problem with this? How am I "hating" or "afraid of the book" or... I don't know, illogical? :shrug:

[Jaydogrules]

1. He is the only one who has claimed to have tried to track down the history of this book's print run. Whether or not he actually spoke with someone from publishing, printing, distribution, I have heard from no one else on here who has claimed to have tried to research it and report back with proof of a higher print run. Some of us just don't have that much time in our lives and there are probably lots of dead ends like the print or distributor records on the order for the #667 not being kept and frankly them not caring to keep track.

 

All this is well and good, but you're equating effort with results and I'm not seeing any evidence that his effort has produced any reliable data on the print run of this book. If effort is your measuring stick then the guys on "Tracking Bigfoot" ought to be called in on the case of the missing ASM #667 variants.

 

Exactly.

 

Just because you spend x amount of time trying to prove Bigfoot exists, doesn't mean Bigfoot exists.

What is with these modern collectors?

 

PROOF has nothing even to do with what we FEEL.... it has to do with critical reasoning skills and seeing exactly what IS known and making a determination based upon it.

 

The best way to determine TRUTH, is to make a statement and then do everything you can to prove it ISN'T true, until all you have left is either a truth, an untruth, or an inconclusive statement.

 

There are WAY too many people on this forum who start with a CONCLUSION, and then build their reality to try and make it fit. It's poor reasoning and poor SCIENCE.

 

I gave him credit for the effort, not results. To date, nobody on either side of this argument has been able to prove the real quantities of copies in existence.

Proof? Playoffs? , there's absolutely NO verifiable proof (to us) currently as it stands what the print run was or copies in existence are/were originally (200, 225 or 1 million). Only theories and attempts. All I gave Jaydog credit for in that 1st item was that he may be the only one on here who may have actually tried to track down that number and someone may have actually provided him with a number (fictional or otherwise). That's more effort than anyone else on here has actually claimed to have done. So I give him credit for actually trying to find proof. It's real easy to dismiss and stand on the other side where the burden of proof is not a requirement to disagree. However, I contend that his hypothesis and investigations and market availability currently do support his theory of rarity (not the true count of copies in existence). If he is able to provide a means of repeating his research for us to independently verify then I'd say his theory of rarity holds the most credibility.

 

Proof seems to be the thing everyone wants so let's agree what proof would be required to satisfy our disagreements.

1. Verified authentic purchase order request from Marvel to printer for X number of copies (Mx). This by itself is not enough. Just because Marvel requested X copies doesn't mean that's what the printer really printed depending on other circumstances.

2. Verified Inbound printing log record at the various printers used to print this exact issue showing approval to print X copies (Pix). This is a bit more reliable and along with #1 above could be used to corroborate the actual intended number of copies to be printed. However, this is also not enough since circumstances could exist that prevented X number of copies from being printed successfully.

3. Verified outbound printing log showing the actual number of copies printed (Pox) and packaged to be shipped/sold to xyz. This is perhaps the most accurate number in that it is the end result of what got printed/produced. However, this still is not enough to tell us how many copies exist due to circumstances that could have removed quantities from the market due to damage, destruction, or other loss.

4. Shipping manifesto (Sx). Whomever the various printers used to ship out the boxes of those should be able to tell us the total number of boxes shipped that day and how many made it to their destinations. This is not only good for identifying the potential for loss if shipments never made it to their destinations but can tell us where all possible quantities should have gone (i.e the next best place to look.)

5. Distributor distribution quantities (Dx). Presumably, the distributor would have a record of which stores qualified for the variant and where they shipped them to. That can be used to determine what the actual market population "should" be. If that number differs from the printer output log, the difference is what can be considered to be "hidden" or lost quantities.

 

So I would say the real "market" available quantities in existence today would be close to whatever Dx is and the number of "hidden" (warehoused) or unknown (loss) could be derived from Pox-Dx.

And the most complete explanation of what really happened along the way could be gathered from Mx-Pix-Pox-Sx-Dx showing what was intended and what actually got distributed.

 

I would first start at Marvel accounting purchasing and ordering for that copy. I would next go to the known distributors (if that's even possible today) and the shipping companies used and request all the locations and quantities shipped/delivered. Distributors and shippers should have very good accounting of all their orders and deliveries. I believe that issue came out after the major distributor consolidation so the distributors (Diamond?) should be easy to locate and inquire with.

 

If I still had my sabbatical option I would undergo this endeavor myself and write a book that only jaydog and the 28 other 667 owners would read. Anyone have some free time on their hands?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I believe I've actually seen a bit of this info already. But....

 

How do we get started?

 

-J.

[SquareChaos]

1. He is the only one who has claimed to have tried to track down the history of this book's print run. Whether or not he actually spoke with someone from publishing, printing, distribution, I have heard from no one else on here who has claimed to have tried to research it and report back with proof of a higher print run. Some of us just don't have that much time in our lives and there are probably lots of dead ends like the print or distributor records on the order for the #667 not being kept and frankly them not caring to keep track.

 

All this is well and good, but you're equating effort with results and I'm not seeing any evidence that his effort has produced any reliable data on the print run of this book. If effort is your measuring stick then the guys on "Tracking Bigfoot" ought to be called in on the case of the missing ASM #667 variants.

 

Exactly.

 

Just because you spend x amount of time trying to prove Bigfoot exists, doesn't mean Bigfoot exists.

What is with these modern collectors?

 

PROOF has nothing even to do with what we FEEL.... it has to do with critical reasoning skills and seeing exactly what IS known and making a determination based upon it.

 

The best way to determine TRUTH, is to make a statement and then do everything you can to prove it ISN'T true, until all you have left is either a truth, an untruth, or an inconclusive statement.

 

There are WAY too many people on this forum who start with a CONCLUSION, and then build their reality to try and make it fit. It's poor reasoning and poor SCIENCE.

 

I gave him credit for the effort, not results. To date, nobody on either side of this argument has been able to prove the real quantities of copies in existence.

Proof? Playoffs? , there's absolutely NO verifiable proof (to us) currently as it stands what the print run was or copies in existence are/were originally (200, 225 or 1 million). Only theories and attempts. All I gave Jaydog credit for in that 1st item was that he may be the only one on here who may have actually tried to track down that number and someone may have actually provided him with a number (fictional or otherwise). That's more effort than anyone else on here has actually claimed to have done. So I give him credit for actually trying to find proof. It's real easy to dismiss and stand on the other side where the burden of proof is not a requirement to disagree. However, I contend that his hypothesis and investigations and market availability currently do support his theory of rarity (not the true count of copies in existence). If he is able to provide a means of repeating his research for us to independently verify then I'd say his theory of rarity holds the most credibility.

 

Proof seems to be the thing everyone wants so let's agree what proof would be required to satisfy our disagreements.

1. Verified authentic purchase order request from Marvel to printer for X number of copies (Mx). This by itself is not enough. Just because Marvel requested X copies doesn't mean that's what the printer really printed depending on other circumstances.

2. Verified Inbound printing log record at the various printers used to print this exact issue showing approval to print X copies (Pix). This is a bit more reliable and along with #1 above could be used to corroborate the actual intended number of copies to be printed. However, this is also not enough since circumstances could exist that prevented X number of copies from being printed successfully.

3. Verified outbound printing log showing the actual number of copies printed (Pox) and packaged to be shipped/sold to xyz. This is perhaps the most accurate number in that it is the end result of what got printed/produced. However, this still is not enough to tell us how many copies exist due to circumstances that could have removed quantities from the market due to damage, destruction, or other loss.

4. Shipping manifesto (Sx). Whomever the various printers used to ship out the boxes of those should be able to tell us the total number of boxes shipped that day and how many made it to their destinations. This is not only good for identifying the potential for loss if shipments never made it to their destinations but can tell us where all possible quantities should have gone (i.e the next best place to look.)

5. Distributor distribution quantities (Dx). Presumably, the distributor would have a record of which stores qualified for the variant and where they shipped them to. That can be used to determine what the actual market population "should" be. If that number differs from the printer output log, the difference is what can be considered to be "hidden" or lost quantities.

 

So I would say the real "market" available quantities in existence today would be close to whatever Dx is and the number of "hidden" (warehoused) or unknown (loss) could be derived from Pox-Dx.

And the most complete explanation of what really happened along the way could be gathered from Mx-Pix-Pox-Sx-Dx showing what was intended and what actually got distributed.

 

I would first start at Marvel accounting purchasing and ordering for that copy. I would next go to the known distributors (if that's even possible today) and the shipping companies used and request all the locations and quantities shipped/delivered. Distributors and shippers should have very good accounting of all their orders and deliveries. I believe that issue came out after the major distributor consolidation so the distributors (Diamond?) should be easy to locate and inquire with.

 

If I still had my sabbatical option I would undergo this endeavor myself and write a book that only jaydog and the 28 other 667 owners would read. Anyone have some free time on their hands?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How do we get started?

 

-J.

 

Never question the logic of anyone remotely agreeing with you, constantly ignore any and all points in an argument against while repeating the same few talking points in all of your responses.

 

[Jaydogrules]

1. He is the only one who has claimed to have tried to track down the history of this book's print run. Whether or not he actually spoke with someone from publishing, printing, distribution, I have heard from no one else on here who has claimed to have tried to research it and report back with proof of a higher print run. Some of us just don't have that much time in our lives and there are probably lots of dead ends like the print or distributor records on the order for the #667 not being kept and frankly them not caring to keep track.

 

All this is well and good, but you're equating effort with results and I'm not seeing any evidence that his effort has produced any reliable data on the print run of this book. If effort is your measuring stick then the guys on "Tracking Bigfoot" ought to be called in on the case of the missing ASM #667 variants.

 

Exactly.

 

Just because you spend x amount of time trying to prove Bigfoot exists, doesn't mean Bigfoot exists.

What is with these modern collectors?

 

PROOF has nothing even to do with what we FEEL.... it has to do with critical reasoning skills and seeing exactly what IS known and making a determination based upon it.

 

The best way to determine TRUTH, is to make a statement and then do everything you can to prove it ISN'T true, until all you have left is either a truth, an untruth, or an inconclusive statement.

 

There are WAY too many people on this forum who start with a CONCLUSION, and then build their reality to try and make it fit. It's poor reasoning and poor SCIENCE.

 

I gave him credit for the effort, not results. To date, nobody on either side of this argument has been able to prove the real quantities of copies in existence.

Proof? Playoffs? , there's absolutely NO verifiable proof (to us) currently as it stands what the print run was or copies in existence are/were originally (200, 225 or 1 million). Only theories and attempts. All I gave Jaydog credit for in that 1st item was that he may be the only one on here who may have actually tried to track down that number and someone may have actually provided him with a number (fictional or otherwise). That's more effort than anyone else on here has actually claimed to have done. So I give him credit for actually trying to find proof. It's real easy to dismiss and stand on the other side where the burden of proof is not a requirement to disagree. However, I contend that his hypothesis and investigations and market availability currently do support his theory of rarity (not the true count of copies in existence). If he is able to provide a means of repeating his research for us to independently verify then I'd say his theory of rarity holds the most credibility.

 

Proof seems to be the thing everyone wants so let's agree what proof would be required to satisfy our disagreements.

1. Verified authentic purchase order request from Marvel to printer for X number of copies (Mx). This by itself is not enough. Just because Marvel requested X copies doesn't mean that's what the printer really printed depending on other circumstances.

2. Verified Inbound printing log record at the various printers used to print this exact issue showing approval to print X copies (Pix). This is a bit more reliable and along with #1 above could be used to corroborate the actual intended number of copies to be printed. However, this is also not enough since circumstances could exist that prevented X number of copies from being printed successfully.

3. Verified outbound printing log showing the actual number of copies printed (Pox) and packaged to be shipped/sold to xyz. This is perhaps the most accurate number in that it is the end result of what got printed/produced. However, this still is not enough to tell us how many copies exist due to circumstances that could have removed quantities from the market due to damage, destruction, or other loss.

4. Shipping manifesto (Sx). Whomever the various printers used to ship out the boxes of those should be able to tell us the total number of boxes shipped that day and how many made it to their destinations. This is not only good for identifying the potential for loss if shipments never made it to their destinations but can tell us where all possible quantities should have gone (i.e the next best place to look.)

5. Distributor distribution quantities (Dx). Presumably, the distributor would have a record of which stores qualified for the variant and where they shipped them to. That can be used to determine what the actual market population "should" be. If that number differs from the printer output log, the difference is what can be considered to be "hidden" or lost quantities.

 

So I would say the real "market" available quantities in existence today would be close to whatever Dx is and the number of "hidden" (warehoused) or unknown (loss) could be derived from Pox-Dx.

And the most complete explanation of what really happened along the way could be gathered from Mx-Pix-Pox-Sx-Dx showing what was intended and what actually got distributed.

 

I would first start at Marvel accounting purchasing and ordering for that copy. I would next go to the known distributors (if that's even possible today) and the shipping companies used and request all the locations and quantities shipped/delivered. Distributors and shippers should have very good accounting of all their orders and deliveries. I believe that issue came out after the major distributor consolidation so the distributors (Diamond?) should be easy to locate and inquire with.

 

If I still had my sabbatical option I would undergo this endeavor myself and write a book that only jaydog and the 28 other 667 owners would read. Anyone have some free time on their hands?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How do we get started?

 

-J.

 

Never question the logic of anyone remotely agreeing with you, constantly ignore any and all points in an argument against while repeating the same few talking points in all of your responses.

 

Seriously ? This was a well thought out post outlining a potential methodology for proving a hypothesis. It had nothing to do with "agreeing" with me.

 

And if the few relentless naysayers ever said anything beyond "nuh-uh" and actually cited some facts and figures of their own, or at least responded to the ones that I cite and were interested in a good faith discussion instead of little more than trolling , then yes I'm game.

 

But as the last 40 pages have proven here and all of the many threads before this one, they are unable to do any of that. So they just keep but actually saying nothing.

 

-J.

[Prince Namor]

The truth of the matter is that logic is dead. People can spend whatever they want for anything, and anyone questioning the "value" that something holds from a "why" perspective is seen as somehow gross and offensive for daring to "judge" what someone collects - even though these are clearly two very different things.

 

 

Again with this ?

 

Who are you to "judge" anything of what anyone collects ? Why do "you" believe that a cogent explanation of a transaction that makes sense to "you", and submitted for "your" approval or acceptance of something is required to validate the value of anything? This isn't necessarily just directed at you, but- Narcissistic much? It is what it is whether you agree with it or not. Some people collect different things than you. Some people have more than you. Why does that bother you so much ?

 

Reminding you once more that while "your" logic may seem compromised, there are other people who think and collect differently than you.

 

-J.

 

Why does it bother YOU?

 

There are plenty of sales of comics throughout the history of this hobby that are debated and discussed as far as VALUE, which is what THIS book is being judged on by some.

 

Has always gone on. Heck, when that Action #1 sold for $1000 back in the day, people were shocked someone would pay that much for a comic book.

 

Why you think that's wrong to question is both strange and a bit suspect.

 

We get that you want to inflate the value of this book for some reason we don't yet know, but your insistence that anyone questioning it is somehow wrong is...peculiar.

 

When someone buys the first Green Lantern #76 CGC 9.6 or the first New Mutants #98 CGC 9.9, two books at the time that were much more rare than what you're talking about, the exact same questions pop up.... was that a good price to pay? Will there be another copy brought to market? Will it sell for the same type of money as the first one (hold it's value)etc., etc.

 

(The answer was NO and YES and NO, part of the reason why you're 'logic' is hotly debated by some as far as ASM 667 DO variant holding it's value)

 

The truth is, generally speaking, the worst time to buy is when a book is hot, and there a very few copies of it available. Most likely more will show up, demand won't be as high and the price will come down. Everyone here of course knows this, but since most of the board now consists of 'sellers', everyone acts like it some kind of secret and is in constant pump mode.

 

No one's telling you that you can't pump, pump, pump this book. Go for it.

 

But trying to tell others they're narcissistic or wrong to ask is...combative for no reason.

 

You make a definitive value statement on something around here, people are going to question it.

[Prince Namor]

1. He is the only one who has claimed to have tried to track down the history of this book's print run. Whether or not he actually spoke with someone from publishing, printing, distribution, I have heard from no one else on here who has claimed to have tried to research it and report back with proof of a higher print run. Some of us just don't have that much time in our lives and there are probably lots of dead ends like the print or distributor records on the order for the #667 not being kept and frankly them not caring to keep track.

 

All this is well and good, but you're equating effort with results and I'm not seeing any evidence that his effort has produced any reliable data on the print run of this book. If effort is your measuring stick then the guys on "Tracking Bigfoot" ought to be called in on the case of the missing ASM #667 variants.

 

Exactly.

 

Just because you spend x amount of time trying to prove Bigfoot exists, doesn't mean Bigfoot exists.

What is with these modern collectors?

 

PROOF has nothing even to do with what we FEEL.... it has to do with critical reasoning skills and seeing exactly what IS known and making a determination based upon it.

 

The best way to determine TRUTH, is to make a statement and then do everything you can to prove it ISN'T true, until all you have left is either a truth, an untruth, or an inconclusive statement.

 

There are WAY too many people on this forum who start with a CONCLUSION, and then build their reality to try and make it fit. It's poor reasoning and poor SCIENCE.

 

I gave him credit for the effort, not results. To date, nobody on either side of this argument has been able to prove the real quantities of copies in existence.

Proof? Playoffs? , there's absolutely NO verifiable proof (to us) currently as it stands what the print run was or copies in existence are/were originally (200, 225 or 1 million). Only theories and attempts. All I gave Jaydog credit for in that 1st item was that he may be the only one on here who may have actually tried to track down that number and someone may have actually provided him with a number (fictional or otherwise). That's more effort than anyone else on here has actually claimed to have done. So I give him credit for actually trying to find proof. It's real easy to dismiss and stand on the other side where the burden of proof is not a requirement to disagree. However, I contend that his hypothesis and investigations and market availability currently do support his theory of rarity (not the true count of copies in existence). If he is able to provide a means of repeating his research for us to independently verify then I'd say his theory of rarity holds the most credibility.

 

Proof seems to be the thing everyone wants so let's agree what proof would be required to satisfy our disagreements.

1. Verified authentic purchase order request from Marvel to printer for X number of copies (Mx). This by itself is not enough. Just because Marvel requested X copies doesn't mean that's what the printer really printed depending on other circumstances.

2. Verified Inbound printing log record at the various printers used to print this exact issue showing approval to print X copies (Pix). This is a bit more reliable and along with #1 above could be used to corroborate the actual intended number of copies to be printed. However, this is also not enough since circumstances could exist that prevented X number of copies from being printed successfully.

3. Verified outbound printing log showing the actual number of copies printed (Pox) and packaged to be shipped/sold to xyz. This is perhaps the most accurate number in that it is the end result of what got printed/produced. However, this still is not enough to tell us how many copies exist due to circumstances that could have removed quantities from the market due to damage, destruction, or other loss.

4. Shipping manifesto (Sx). Whomever the various printers used to ship out the boxes of those should be able to tell us the total number of boxes shipped that day and how many made it to their destinations. This is not only good for identifying the potential for loss if shipments never made it to their destinations but can tell us where all possible quantities should have gone (i.e the next best place to look.)

5. Distributor distribution quantities (Dx). Presumably, the distributor would have a record of which stores qualified for the variant and where they shipped them to. That can be used to determine what the actual market population "should" be. If that number differs from the printer output log, the difference is what can be considered to be "hidden" or lost quantities.

 

So I would say the real "market" available quantities in existence today would be close to whatever Dx is and the number of "hidden" (warehoused) or unknown (loss) could be derived from Pox-Dx.

And the most complete explanation of what really happened along the way could be gathered from Mx-Pix-Pox-Sx-Dx showing what was intended and what actually got distributed.

 

I would first start at Marvel accounting purchasing and ordering for that copy. I would next go to the known distributors (if that's even possible today) and the shipping companies used and request all the locations and quantities shipped/delivered. Distributors and shippers should have very good accounting of all their orders and deliveries. I believe that issue came out after the major distributor consolidation so the distributors (Diamond?) should be easy to locate and inquire with.

 

If I still had my sabbatical option I would undergo this endeavor myself and write a book that only jaydog and the 28 other 667 owners would read. Anyone have some free time on their hands?

 

 

Actual publication numbers are a hugely guarded secret.

[Jaydogrules]

The truth of the matter is that logic is dead. People can spend whatever they want for anything, and anyone questioning the "value" that something holds from a "why" perspective is seen as somehow gross and offensive for daring to "judge" what someone collects - even though these are clearly two very different things.

 

 

Again with this ?

 

Who are you to "judge" anything of what anyone collects ? Why do "you" believe that a cogent explanation of a transaction that makes sense to "you", and submitted for "your" approval or acceptance of something is required to validate the value of anything? This isn't necessarily just directed at you, but- Narcissistic much? It is what it is whether you agree with it or not. Some people collect different things than you. Some people have more than you. Why does that bother you so much ?

 

Reminding you once more that while "your" logic may seem compromised, there are other people who think and collect differently than you.

 

-J.

 

Why does it bother YOU?

 

There are plenty of sales of comics throughout the history of this hobby that are debated and discussed as far as VALUE, which is what THIS book is being judged on by some.

 

Has always gone on. Heck, when that Action #1 sold for $1000 back in the day, people were shocked someone would pay that much for a comic book.

 

Why you think that's wrong to question is both strange and a bit suspect.

 

We get that you want to inflate the value of this book for some reason we don't yet know, but your insistence that anyone questioning it is somehow wrong is...peculiar.

 

When someone buys the first Green Lantern #76 CGC 9.6 or the first New Mutants #98 CGC 9.9, two books at the time that were much more rare than what you're talking about, the exact same questions pop up.... was that a good price to pay? Will there be another copy brought to market? Will it sell for the same type of money as the first one (hold it's value)etc., etc.

 

(The answer was NO and YES and NO, part of the reason why you're 'logic' is hotly debated by some as far as ASM 667 DO variant holding it's value)

 

The truth is, generally speaking, the worst time to buy is when a book is hot, and there a very few copies of it available. Most likely more will show up, demand won't be as high and the price will come down. Everyone here of course knows this, but since most of the board now consists of 'sellers', everyone acts like it some kind of secret and is in constant pump mode.

 

No one's telling you that you can't pump, pump, pump this book. Go for it.

 

But trying to tell others they're narcissistic or wrong to ask is...combative for no reason.

 

You make a definitive value statement on something around here, people are going to question it.

 

As expected and predicted you are conveniently talking around the Bats 608RRP to ASM 667 census correlation that I posted to show each book's rarity factor at the same point in time.

 

Instead you misdirect (again) and accuse me of "pumping" the one copy of this book that I own, and that isn't for sale anywhere , in a sales announcement thread that I did not start. Perhaps in your narcissistic, self-righteous know-it-all psyche somewhere you believe you are performing some kind of "public service" by constantly denigrating this book, and by extension, the fans, admirers, and owners of it. I can assure you that you are not. Your real motives are clear, you are not interested in any good faith debates of any facts and figures presented. You are only interested in trolling the ASM 667 Dell'otto.

 

What a way to spend your day.

 

-J.