Marvel UK Price Variants 16 16

[Finhead]

1 hour ago, serling1978 said:

It still baffles me that 35 cent variants command a very significant mark-up over the more common 30 cent and everyone goes along with that fine, yet the majority of collectors still don't see the obvious correlation there that should make pence books worth even a higher percentage over their US counterparts than 35 cent over 30 cent . 

That and the fact that Pence copies were actually ran first since it was a small run then changed for the US version. At least that is what I found when researching them years ago.

[Get Marwood & I]

8 hours ago, serling1978 said:

It still baffles me that 35 cent variants command a very significant mark-up over the more common 30 cent and everyone goes along with that fine, yet the majority of collectors still don't see the obvious correlation there that should make pence books worth even a higher percentage over their US counterparts than 35 cent over 30 cent . 

This has been discussed many times in this thread and others that I have created - it's the non-US price that puts some people off Serling. They understand 30c and 35c - it's their currency. They don't understand 9d and 8p. 'Purity' is key for many US (and UK) collectors I have found. I've tried my best to animate their interest of course but....

7 hours ago, Finhead said:

That and the fact that Pence copies were actually ran first since it was a small run then changed for the US version. At least that is what I found when researching them years ago.

Also discussed many times in this thread and I don't think there was one set printing order myself, in the early days. What evidence did you discover in your research Finhead? I've presented a lot of scenarios over the years here which could imply the contrary. For example, have you read this?:

https://www.cgccomics.com/boards/topic/412313-marvel-us-price-font-variations-june-1960-~-february-1961/page/6/?tab=comments#comment-11859679

 

[Larryw7]

I've.gotten a couple recently. They're for my Spidey run, I don't look at them any differently than domestic copies. If anything, they're cooler.

 

[Still Only 35c]

Wondering if anyone in this group has run a comparison on the various price variants according to census over the years?

I've recently picked up a high grade Eternals #2 UK price variant and noted the difference in copies of 30c (189 9.8s and 447 9.6s) vs 35c (only 2 9.8 and 4 9.6) vs UK price variants (none above 8.5).

Be interesting to see if that same mix happens across other books and may highlight the scarcity and future desirability for these books in high grade.

[Get Marwood & I]

1 hour ago, Every Day A Story said:

Wondering if anyone in this group has run a comparison on the various price variants according to census over the years?

I've recently picked up a high grade Eternals #2 UK price variant and noted the difference in copies of 30c (189 9.8s and 447 9.6s) vs 35c (only 2 9.8 and 4 9.6) vs UK price variants (none above 8.5).

Be interesting to see if that same mix happens across other books and may highlight the scarcity and future desirability for these books in high grade.

I haven't but I think this man might be well placed to, if indeed he hasn't done so already:

@valiantman

I'd be interested in any results of course, but I don't place too great an emphasis myself on census data for pence copies and what it does or does not tell us about comparative pence scarcity. CGC is an American company and US citizens have, I suspect, been sending in their books in far greater quantities, and for far longer, than any UK citizens have. If CGC had opened an outlet at the same time in the UK as they did in the US, that actually did onsite grading, I'm confident the pence volumes would be significantly higher at this point as a result. 

It wouldn't surprise me if there were many high grade pence Eternals squirrelled away in private UK collections where the owners just aren't as excited by the prospect of sending their books across the pond. For me, a trip overseas and back is something I instinctively baulk at where my precious collectibles are concerned. Certainly on current TATs. And then there is the added expense of overseas shipping and insurance to consider, which sets overseas collectors at a disadvantage.

There is always something you can extract from data, but I don't think the playing field is level enough for the conclusions to be valid and I don't think any data on pence Eternal #2's would ever be anything other than vaguely indicative of what may exist on either side. The general - but evidentially unproven - consensus, is that UK Price Variants had a print run of between 2 and 5% of the US copies and that ratio could over time manifest in the census. In the meantime, the indicative print ratio alone should be enough to convince collectors of the comparative, likely availability of pence copies. I think it is unlikely that census data itself will ever accurately inform what may exist in the short term however, for the reasons I've stated here - and a whole host more that I haven't.

Valiantman, am I talking gibberish?

[valiantman]

4 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Valiantman, am I talking gibberish?

No - you're exactly right.  We're not seeing a good representation of the UK pence variants on the CGC Census because of the required trip across the Atlantic for CGC grading (and the cost of doing so) prior to September 2018 (when the CGC UK office opened).  

It reminds me of a headline that I saw recently which said "Online survey shows local community has adequate internet access".  Yeah... that's because people without internet access didn't answer the survey... 

I would rely on UK collectors to tell me what they believe is a reasonable estimate for the ratio of UK to US versions found in the UK, and then try to determine the size of the total UK comic market relative to the US market size.

It's most likely going to be much harder to estimate the UK edition numbers than the 35-cent price variant numbers, but at least we're talking about actual first printings with a slightly different cover. 

If we were trying to estimate later UK reprints or something using the CGC census, we'd be in even worse shape, since most still aren't worth slabbing even if you were next door to the UK offices of CGC. 

 

That being said, the market "is what it is" and if there aren't enough UK editions, or 35-cent editions, or even US normal editions to satisfy the demand, the prices will reflect that problem.

The interesting thing about UK editions is that they were printed at the same time, and they have always been "cheaper" primarily due to misunderstanding about what they are (they're not reprints), so even if 60 years of pricing has made them seem "not as valuable", it would take very little new demand to significantly change the supply/demand ratio.  Just a dozen new collectors (with only a couple thousand dollars to spend) going after UK price variants could significantly change the market.  There aren't many aspects of the comic collecting market that can be significantly changed by a dozen new collectors.(unless they have hundreds of thousands of dollars to spend).  It's one of the reasons I've been a Valiant fan for 30 years... the best Valiant books still don't cost much.  The best Marvel and DC books were already too expensive before Valiant even existed.  Just a few dollars can make an interesting Valiant collection, and for now, the same is true of UK editions.

Edited June 29, 2021 by valiantman

[Albert Tatlock]

A good point. If even a few Stateside collectors, not necessarily those with the deepest pockets, decide to diversify into UKPVs (especially if they cherry-pick the most desirable examples), it will deplete the number available and drive the price up further.

This is all Marwood's fault. He should backtrack and declare that recent research has proved beyond a shadow of  doubt that the UKPVs are in fact reprints, produced 2 or 3 months after the first printing, and are therefore almost worthless. It is, after all, what some of them still choose to believe.

As a consolation, though, we still have our beloved T & P stamped (or should that be defaced?) copies. Not much chance of the Yanks muscling in on that racket.

[Get Marwood & I]

I used to see UK price stamps as defacements back in the day, but I've developed a healthy respect for them over recent years. In fact, I'm probably one of the only collectors in England who is actually disappointed when certain books I'm looking for don't have them. Just wait until I land Brent II. You'll see what I mean, hopefully. 

[Albert Tatlock]

To me, a T & P or Miller stamp adds to the provenance. I don't even mind an unobtrusive US arrival date, but I draw the line at a big felt-tipped '6d' scrawled across the middle.

[Get Marwood & I]

Yes, I seem to recall posting one that looked like a Philip K earlier in the thread. Not to be encouraged. 

[Albert Tatlock]

Here is a nice discreet stamp that I feel does not detract from the overall presentation of the book.

I can imagine it being applied by a mild-mannered, bespectacled clerk in his usual meticulous manner.

His counterparts at the Popular Book Centre, however, were clearly under the influence of some illicit substance, or had just returned from a prolonged lunchtime session, and set about their task with their customary wild abandon, determined to leave little if any of the original text legible.

[Get Marwood & I]

1 hour ago, Albert Tatlock said:

Here is a nice discreet stamp that I feel does not detract from the overall presentation of the book.

I can imagine it being applied by a mild-mannered, bespectacled clerk in his usual meticulous manner.

His counterparts at the Popular Book Centre, however, were clearly under the influence of some illicit substance, or had just returned from a prolonged lunchtime session, and set about their task with their customary wild abandon, determined to leave little if any of the original text legible.

Nice stamp Albert, although for the PBC quip to work I'd expect to see a few of their stamps on the book - wrong image my friend? 

 

[Get Marwood & I]

I received the final book I needed to complete my Marvel Thorpe & Porter Indicia Types research this week and, happily, it meant I had to rewrite half of it 

I'll update The Pence Palace of Doom soon with all the new data and summary docs (which I've tarted up a bit).

As is often the case, a few things jumped out at me as I was doing it - one, relating to the 'what was printed first' discussions that I've been having with myself in this and my US Price Font Variations threads.

Take a look at these three JIM #64's:

  

One 9d, and two different 10c fonts. Following through the logic in my earlier posts, the absence of a standard approach  bold font cents copy makes my theory that the printing order went 10c bold, 9d box and then some more 10c in a box theory look fairly suspect.

Returning to my T&P indicia research updates, here is the updated Type 4 page, which shows that, where a UKPV exists, the 10c copies also have T&P UK indicias:

Here's the indicia of one of the cents copies of the Jan 1961 JIM #64 which has the T&P indicia:

Does that not suggest that the UKPVs were printed first for this issue, the T&P indicia being present in the cents copy? Consider:

1. There is no  style US copy in existence from which the UK 9d copy was 'scratched out' (why, who knows)
2. Logically, the appearance of the UK indicia in the US copy suggests that it was printed second - they forgot to take it off after finishing the UKPV covers

But there are two JIM #64 cent types:

 

So what if this cents version...  ... doesn't have the T&P indicia? 

That could indicate:

1. 9d run first (with T&P indicia)
2. 10c version run second (with T&P indicia, in error)
3. Additional 10c version run (without)

But why would you run another set of US copies with a different US font if the preceding template was already set as cents? Maybe the presence of the T&P indicia has some other bearing that I'm missing?

Do you think I can find a copy to check though? So, any one got one of these JIM #64's: 

If it has the T&P indicia though, where does that leave us? Back to the pence being printed in the middle? Why no bold cents 'starter' though, if so?

All good fun 

 

 

[Get Marwood & I]

I've updated the Pence Palace journal page with the revised dates and observations here:

https://www.cgccomics.com/boards/blogs/entry/4927-marvel-ukpvs-thorpe-porter-indicias-june-1960-~-november-1964/

This boy was the culprit - he had a misspelled Thorpe, so had to join JIM #60 as a Type 2. Two 2's now...

He's also the 20th ever sequential Marvel UKPV - I only need one more now before I can post a photo of them all together. 

I've got me eye on one, so maybe soon...

[Albert Tatlock]

3 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Nice stamp Albert, although for the PBC quip to work I'd expect to see a few of their stamps on the book

I was going to post, for comparison, an image of a book the PBC had really gone to town on (with a trigger warning, obviously, for those of a nervous disposition), but then I though, no, there is already too much depressing online content.

[Get Marwood & I]

1 minute ago, Albert Tatlock said:

I was going to post, for comparison, an image of a book the PBC had really gone to town on (with a trigger warning, obviously, for those of a nervous disposition), but then I though, no, there is already too much depressing online content.

Post it, Albert - I bet it's a thing of beauty 

[Albert Tatlock]

I was speaking in general terms, I steered clear of heavily defaced copies myself, but I have seen some ghastly examples posted here in the past.

[Get Marwood & I]

9 minutes ago, Albert Tatlock said:

I was speaking in general terms, I steered clear of heavily defaced copies myself, but I have seen some ghastly examples posted here in the past.

Ah, right. I quite like them lately, the stamp riots. They're developing their own charm.

Did you read my other pontifications today Albert, on print order, indicias and the like? I feel like I'm talking to myself most days. I answer myself too, occasionally, to make sure I haven't accidentally died. 

[Albert Tatlock]

5 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Did you read my other pontifications today

I did indeed, it is providing fine detail, along the lines of the physicists' quest for the Theory Of Everything.

I think you have got the last few pieces of the jigsaw trapped in a corner, and they will soon be waving a white flag.

I've done it again, gone and mixed my metaphors. You should never do that, it is a shark-infested minefield.

[OtherEric]

21 hours ago, Albert Tatlock said:

This is all Marwood's fault.

I'm prepared to agree with that in the general case, actually.