Marvel's Falling Sales 6 6

[ComicConnoisseur]

9 minutes ago, SteppinRazor said:

Interesting conversation.  I haven't followed comics for 20some years, and signed on here really to find out if comics had basically died, like my other childhood hobby, football/baseball cards.  I think it's very possible that the kinds of entertainment that came in comic form transition to video games and movies, however, I don't think that that is a very sustainable model either, it'll just take us through the next 20 years or so.  The reason being, comics were essentially low barrier to entry entertainment products.  A movie or video game is decidedly not low barrier.  So as much as comic creators skewed value towards themselves in the 90s and away from publishers, they'll start to price themselves out of the low barrier market (which is happening now), and the high barrier to entry markets are... tougher to enter.  One of two things will happen then.  The kinds of stories that appeared in comics will die, or print entertainment will go more subculture like comics used to be.  We'll have zines and graphic novels, not so much serial stories.  This I think is the right model for now, and internet versions in the future.  Companies like Marvel and DC should be transitioning into graphic novels or story runs in a TPB/electronic versions.  Creators would be more like novel writers - your book/story/art gets picked up on a project basis.  That is going to hurt creators, but if the market isn't there to sustain what creators want out of their creations, then they'll need to either adjust their ideas on income, or do something else.

 

What's also fascinating in this conversation is how appicable a lot of it is to any industry.  The short sightedness of businesses, the value a worker creates for their employer, etc..

 

Sounds like the music business.

[ComicConnoisseur]

1 minute ago, Chuck Gower said:

They do. It's under the IKON imprint for Marvel.

Interesting. I will check it out. 

[SteppinRazor]

Just now, ComicConnoisseur said:

Sounds like the music business.

Yeah.  I have a friend to is a music producer, and there's been a paradigm shift thanks to the internet that just massively affected the income of both artist and producer.  Very very few go around driving Bentleys anymore, even the ones we've heard of.

 

But even in non-creative industries, any job, an employee goes to work and creates something that day for his/her company, be it accounting or HR, or whatever.  Where people fall on how much credit/piece of the pie a comic creator should get is applicable to their own lives.

[Prince Namor]

28 minutes ago, Logan510 said:

Where do you get your information, I find it fascinating.

 

So, I'm guessing Claremont didn't make any "really big money" before Shooter left? Simonson? Miller when he came back to do Born Again?

 

I've researched this stuff for years. Ask Claremont about it next time he's at a show. 

I have no idea about Simonson, but the X-Men numbers exploded after 1987. I'm sure Claremont was well compensated, but the money he made after 1987 easily made him a millionaire.

[ComicConnoisseur]

7 minutes ago, SteppinRazor said:

Yeah.  I have a friend to is a music producer, and there's been a paradigm shift thanks to the internet that just massively affected the income of both artist and producer.  Very very few go around driving Bentleys anymore, even the ones we've heard of.

 

But even in non-creative industries, any job, an employee goes to work and creates something that day for his/her company, be it accounting or HR, or whatever.  Where people fall on how much credit/piece of the pie a comic creator should get is applicable to their own lives.

I had these cousins who formed a rock band, and practiced for years. They went out to Los Angeles in 2004 with high hopes of breaking in to the biz. The consensus just about all the music producers they met was they were ten years too late. If they had started in the 1990s they would have had a chance,but I guess around 2004 the digital music was starting to change things. I wonder if this is 2004 now for monthly comic books? As in digital comics finally starting to make some noise?

Edited April 28, 2017 by ComicConnoisseur

[Logan510]

26 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

I've researched this stuff for years. Ask Claremont about it next time he's at a show. 

I have no idea about Simonson, but the X-Men numbers exploded after 1987. I'm sure Claremont was well compensated, but the money he made after 1987 easily made him a millionaire.

That's not what you said though. You said Byrne is the only creator who made "really big money" before Shooter left. Of course Claremont made huge money after Shooter left, he wrote the title at the height of the speculator glut. 

Back to the original point though. X-Men was the highest selling title at Marvel before Shooter left and Claremont was at the helm...what do you consider big money? Why does it feel like we're arguing over semantics here?

[kav]

21 minutes ago, Logan510 said:

That's not what you said though

It is.  What are you saying?

21 minutes ago, Logan510 said:

You said Byrne is the only creator who made "really big money" before Shooter left.

Never said that.  What is your source?

22 minutes ago, Logan510 said:

Of course Claremont made huge money after Shooter left, he wrote the title at the height of the speculator glut. 

What do you consider the start of the speculator glut?  Do you have access to Claremont's W2's?

22 minutes ago, Logan510 said:

Back to the original point though

Yes let's get back to the original point-if you can.

22 minutes ago, Logan510 said:

X-Men was the highest selling title at Marvel before Shooter left and Claremont was at the helm

What is your source?  What do you consider 'the helm'?

22 minutes ago, Logan510 said:

what do you consider big money?

What do YOU consider big money?  Why is this so difficult to grasp?

22 minutes ago, Logan510 said:

Why does it feel like we're arguing over semantics here?

No one has control over what you feel except you.

[Lazyboy]

8 hours ago, rjrjr said:

Or just put it in the contracts that they must create X number of new (not derivative) characters a year.

All that would accomplish is the existence of more worthless, ultra-lame, one-shot joke characters that would make these guys look like these guys.

[SteppinRazor]

1 hour ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

I had these cousins who formed a rock band, and practiced for years. They went out to Los Angeles in 2004 with high hopes of breaking in to the biz. The consensus just about all the music producers they met was they were ten years too late. If they had started in the 1990s they would have had a chance,but I guess around 2004 the digital music was starting to change things. I wonder if this is 2004 now for monthly comic books? As in digital comics finally starting to make some noise?

Could be.  It's definitely hard to predict.  On the one hand, it seems reading words printed on paper is obsolete.  On the other, people will always find avenues to create, and it's the cheapest way to do that over video games or movies.  I was pretty surprised to see Top Cow having to do a kickstarter posted in a thread somewhere on here.  If they need to do that, it seems the bell is tolling.

If the publishers want to stay alive, they certainly need IMO to bring in new readership.  That means moving on from characters/stories.  For example, Peter Parker getting married is like a knife in the back of a little kid's imagination.  I know it's probably not a poular position here, but moving on from the originals is the best way to update for new generations of readers.

Edited April 29, 2017 by SteppinRazor

[kav]

I started reading spiderman from watching the cartoon.  I can imagine some kid or teen watching Thor movie then going into comic shop asking to buy Thor.  Do you want muslim thor, black thor, hulk thor, lady thor, tranny thor or evil thor?  Then walking out of shop empty handed going wtf just happened??

[Aweandlorder]

I heard that caitlyn jenner will play as Bruce banner in the next hulk movie 

[Senormac]

49 minutes ago, Aweandlorder said:

I heard that caitlyn jenner will play as Bruce banner in the next hulk movie 

[Senormac]

This is a pretty cool conversation 

[SteppinRazor]

12 hours ago, kav said:

I started reading spiderman from watching the cartoon.  I can imagine some kid or teen watching Thor movie then going into comic shop asking to buy Thor.  Do you want muslim thor, black thor, hulk thor, lady thor, tranny thor or evil thor?  Then walking out of shop empty handed going wtf just happened??

They would definitely need to coordinate with the movies better, so that the Thor in the comic is the same as the movie Thor, which shouldn't be too difficult since actors don't like to reprise roles forever and they get old.  If they stopped a serial and went to graphic novel/electronic formats, this shouldn't be much of an issue.  Especially if they do electronic only, then no kid walks into a shop at all for a comic.

[CAHokie]

8 hours ago, Senormac said:

This is a pretty cool conversation 

It is a pretty good conversation, with knowledgeable posters...despite some of the posts being longer than War and Peace.

[World Devourer]

Marvel can attempt to re-create the mood and feel of the classic period, but at the end of the day it will fail - in the same way that remakes of classic films fail. Try as one might, you cannot recreate that period. All those elements that made up the zeitgeist of that era are long gone. 

Yes, there are long-time (and long in the tooth) fans, but not enough. Today's "readers" are a different beast. These are the people who helped video game profits exceed film profits for several years in a row.

Comics will eventually become a casual e-option fof those interested. Sad for some, but inevitable.

[Senormac]

1 hour ago, World Devourer said:

Marvel can attempt to re-create the mood and feel of the classic period, but at the end of the day it will fail - in the same way that remakes of classic films fail. Try as one might, you cannot recreate that period. All those elements that made up the zeitgeist of that era are long gone. 

Yes, there are long-time (and long in the tooth) fans, but not enough. Today's "readers" are a different beast. These are the people who helped video game profits exceed film profits for several years in a row.

Comics will eventually become a casual e-option fof those interested. Sad for some, but inevitable.

^ what he said

The Marvel formula from the past will never work again because the human race is not in that same place now a days.  Stan Lee was pretty smart.  He found the formula that reached a whole generation.  I'm not so sure there really is a generation right now.  Everybody is all over the place with too many choices for entertainment and bringing them all to one place again (comic books) is probably not going to happen.  Movies have trumped comic reading 

[Prince Namor]

1 hour ago, Senormac said:

^ what he said

The Marvel formula from the past will never work again because the human race is not in that same place now a days.  Stan Lee was pretty smart.  He found the formula that reached a whole generation.  I'm not so sure there really is a generation right now.  Everybody is all over the place with too many choices for entertainment and bringing them all to one place again (comic books) is probably not going to happen.  Movies have trumped comic reading 

Totally agree

[rjrjr]

21 hours ago, Ken Aldred said:

Or, this could cause more writers and artists to go elsewhere, such as Image, or even to self-publish, rather than accept Marvel's strictures.

Don't let the door hit them on the way out! Seriously, you take the work or you don't.  This idea that you are holding back to do better things elsewhere is unprofessional IMHO.  And I doubt Marvel or DC would be lacking in creators willing to come in under those conditions.

I'm a coder.  I do the best job I can daily.  I don't hold back for the time I eventually run my own software firm.

Edited April 29, 2017 by rjrjr

[rjrjr]

On 4/28/2017 at 9:05 AM, Hamlet said:

I think this is what a lot of people are missing.  There just isn't much money to be made in physical comics ( or really any printed periodical these days ). 

One good movie makes more than they are ever going to make printing comics.

So there just isn't much reason for Disney to spend much effort on the comics themselves.  Like James Bond, the characters have moved past their original medium and are now movie franchises.

The comics themselves really don't matter much anymore.

Actually, this is Disney and they care about it all.  If they didn't care, their cartoon characters would be published by Marvel and not IDW.  Disney wants to own every facet of a kids life, from the clothes they wear to the books they read and what they watch on television.  Don't kid yourself if you believe Disney doesn't care about how well Marvel does.