Marvel's Falling Sales 6 6

[rjrjr]

20 hours ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

Question?

How come DC or Marvel don't offer the artists today that kind of Frank Miller deal?

That Frank Miller deal was about 34 years ago(1983). You would think 34 years later Marvel or DC could come up with an equal deal or even better deal now.

Doesn't Miller own all the books he did at Marvel under their Icon imprint?  The one's that saw the movie Kick Booty made.

[vaillant]

1 hour ago, Chuck Gower said:

 

3 hours ago, Senormac said:

^ what he said

The Marvel formula from the past will never work again because the human race is not in that same place now a days.  Stan Lee was pretty smart.  He found the formula that reached a whole generation.  I'm not so sure there really is a generation right now.  Everybody is all over the place with too many choices for entertainment and bringing them all to one place again (comic books) is probably not going to happen.  Movies have trumped comic reading 

Totally agree

 

I would say Lee reached (more or less) ALL generations: when it’s due it’s due. Senormac nails down the core of the problem, in my opinion, when he says "everybody is all over the place with too many choices for entertainment", but it’s not just movies: it’s a lack of recollection.

[Ken Aldred]

1 hour ago, rjrjr said:

Don't let the door hit them on the way out! Seriously, you take the work or you don't.  This idea that you are holding back to do better things elsewhere is unprofessional IMHO.  And I doubt Marvel or DC would be lacking in creators willing to come in under those conditions.

Precisely.  You take it or leave it.  Some will, some won't give in to corporate demands.

It's happened in comics enough in the past for there to be a precedent, anyway.

Edited April 29, 2017 by Ken Aldred

[Ken Aldred]

4 hours ago, Senormac said:

^ what he said

The Marvel formula from the past will never work again because the human race is not in that same place now a days.  Stan Lee was pretty smart.  He found the formula that reached a whole generation.  I'm not so sure there really is a generation right now.  Everybody is all over the place with too many choices for entertainment and bringing them all to one place again (comic books) is probably not going to happen.  Movies have trumped comic reading 

 

2 hours ago, Chuck Gower said:

Totally agree

Even an oldie like me finds himself pulled in many different directions.  I suppose it's useful because I've always been somewhat attention deficient and it's better for me now to be able to switch between a choice of many different higher-tech distractions.  But, no going back to those fondly-remembered, primitive days of 50p worth of comic books and three TV channels and an AM radio.

Edited April 29, 2017 by Ken Aldred

[Prince Namor]

3 hours ago, rjrjr said:

Doesn't Miller own all the books he did at Marvel under their Icon imprint?  The one's that saw the movie Kick Booty made.

That's Mark Millar. Yes, he does. 

[Logan510]

Just now, Chuck Gower said:

That's Mark Millar. Yes, he does. 

So, believe me now about the character creation incentive program they had? 

[Prince Namor]

3 hours ago, rjrjr said:

Don't let the door hit them on the way out! Seriously, you take the work or you don't.  This idea that you are holding back to do better things elsewhere is unprofessional IMHO.  And I doubt Marvel or DC would be lacking in creators willing to come in under those conditions.

But are they quality creators? Creating comic books isn't the same thing as writing code for software or crunching numbers for accounting. 

Math has a specific answer that's right. Comic Books do not. 

Quote

I'm a coder.  I do the best job I can daily.  I don't hold back for the time I eventually run my own software firm.

See above. 

[Prince Namor]

1 minute ago, Logan510 said:

So, believe me now about the character creation incentive program they had? 

I had not heard it called that before.

i knew Marvel had it to some degree before that as Archie Goodwin helped put it together for the Epic line. 

And I knew Shooter put together the residual deal after DC's went on up. 

I just hadn't heard that part of it called that before. 

[Logan510]

3 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

I had not heard it called that before.

i knew Marvel had it to some degree before that as Archie Goodwin helped put it together for the Epic line. 

And I knew Shooter put together the residual deal after DC's went on up. 

I just hadn't heard that part of it called that before. 

You said on the Byrne board you had never heard of it before at all.

Just curious if his word is good enough for you.

[Mercury Man]

Just give us a good story, with some good art.   

We are simpletons.  We don't ask for much.  The current Marvel has done anything but give us good stories.  They throw new personas behind the mask and say "Here take it, like it, buy it".  And when we don't WE are the problem, not them.  Marvel is full of a bunch of self righteous jerks right now, and given the layoffs that Disney had at ESPN, hopefully the Marvel offices will not be far behind.  Starting with Alonso and Nick Spencer. 

[SteppinRazor]

2 hours ago, Chuck Gower said:

But are they quality creators? Creating comic books isn't the same thing as writing code for software or crunching numbers for accounting. 

Math has a specific answer that's right. Comic Books do not. 

See above. 

There are good and bad coders, too.  The difference is, creators have to face judgement, which is not often the case with other professions.  A coder can probably get away with sloppy code for example, but a lackluster comic creation gets an immediate result.  I think there should be value built in to what creators are paid for that reason.  If everyone had to face that kind of judgement on the daily like a creator does, there would be a lot of angry and unemployed people.

The thing really most everyone who works for someone else shares is that the individual brings their talents to the job, and the employer wants to get the most out of them for the least amount of money.  The result, which we are seeing in the economy as a whole, is that younger/less experienced people get hired more often because they are cheaper.  In a situation like a comic publisher setting exploitative pay schedules, new creators will take their shots while established ones will move toward self publishing or different mediums.  Elsewhere you can see it in the NFL, accounting, IT, etc..

Edited April 30, 2017 by SteppinRazor

[Prince Namor]

1 hour ago, Logan510 said:

You said on the Byrne board you had never heard of it before at all.

Just curious if his word is good enough for you.

I had never heard of it. 

I had heard of Marvel's program of compensating creator's for the reprinting of work done, which is still somewhat what this program is. 

Its not like Byrne can do a Puck comic on his own with the character outside of Marvel. Millar can and has. 

A creators input who was THERE at the time, always holds more weight than almost anyone else, unless they are a compulsive liar like Shooter or someone with a horrible memory like Stan Lee. 

Byrne has a record of telling things that hold up under scrutiny from other people there at the time, so I always value his perspective. 

[Logan510]

5 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

I had never heard of it. 

I had heard of Marvel's program of compensating creator's for the reprinting of work done, which is still somewhat what this program is. 

Its not like Byrne can do a Puck comic on his own with the character outside of Marvel. Millar can and has. 

A creators input who was THERE at the time, always holds more weight than almost anyone else, unless they are a compulsive liar like Shooter or someone with a horrible memory like Stan Lee. 

Byrne has a record of telling things that hold up under scrutiny from other people there at the time, so I always value his perspective. 

[World Devourer]

1 hour ago, Chuck Gower said:

I had never heard of it. 

I had heard of Marvel's program of compensating creator's for the reprinting of work done, which is still somewhat what this program is. 

Its not like Byrne can do a Puck comic on his own with the character outside of Marvel. Millar can and has. 

A creators input who was THERE at the time, always holds more weight than almost anyone else, unless they are a compulsive liar like Shooter or someone with a horrible memory like Stan Lee. 

Byrne has a record of telling things that hold up under scrutiny from other people there at the time, so I always value his perspective. 

Actually very true. John and Walt (Simonson) have always told it "like it was", but in a discreet, clinical fashion. No vitriol.

[01TheDude]

Has Marvel or DC ever went the corporate route and bought titles from independents to bring them under their umbrella?

That's what happens in the beer industry. About 11 brewers own about 90% of the beer section you see these days at a grocery store. And even some of them have been bought out by larger world wide conglomerates ( Anheuser Busch for example by InBev). It has not hurt the industry-- as it gives rise to thousands of craft brewed beers-- which often get bought out if they become too successful.

Not sure if that model would work for DC or Marvel as it is a different type of market. But it seems like something they could do to strengthen their creative offering.

[Ken Aldred]

9 hours ago, 01TheDude said:

Has Marvel or DC ever went the corporate route and bought titles from independents to bring them under their umbrella?

 

Marvel - Malibu Ultraverse, Brian Michael Bendis' Powers

Edited April 30, 2017 by Ken Aldred

[ComicConnoisseur]

9 hours ago, 01TheDude said:

Has Marvel or DC ever went the corporate route and bought titles from independents to bring them under their umbrella?

I don't know if you call them independents,but DC bought heroes from Quality,Fawcett, and Charlton Comics.

Some would even say that DC took those Charlton heroes and turned them into the Watchmen heroes.

[ComicConnoisseur]

One thing I like about DC that Marvel doesn't seem to have is Vertigo. Vertigo since its inception has to put out some of the best written comic book ever made.

[ComicConnoisseur]

16 minutes ago, Ken Aldred said:

Marvel - Malibu Ultraverse, Brian Michael Bendis' Powers

What is odd about that is Marvel has done absolutely nothing with those Malibu Ultraverse characters for 20 years? So why buy them?

There was some value in the line, as they even had a animated series during the 1990s.

 

[Ken Aldred]

33 minutes ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

I don't know if you call them independents,but DC bought heroes from Quality,Fawcett, and Charlton Comics.

Some would even say that DC took those Charlton heroes and turned them into the Watchmen heroes.

Good lateral thinking.