Marvel comics 1 entry price? 0

[Jaydogrules]

27 minutes ago, N e r V said:

I've come to the conclusion that certain posters here are only interested in their own agendas or trolls. Take your pick.

 

Stating your opinion is one thing but continued attempts to counter others opinions by trying to beat your own on to them over and over again is not polite.

 

I'm annoyed. 

So you're "annoyed" by the people (almost everyone) who is properly calling the November reprints "reprints".  Got it.  

So it is just more likely, in your "opinion" that Goodman somehow simultaneously had enough faith that he advance printed a million copies of an untested, unproven book, with an "October" cover date, but then released just a fraction of them, why only a fraction, who knows, only to then go back and incur massive additional expenses, not to mention the amount of actual time it would have taken in paying an army of interns to "hand stamp" the "leftover" 800,000 copies that he kept in cold storage "just in case" the book turned out to be a success.  

Yes, I'm calling that notion patently ridiculous and absurd.  Because it is.  The November copies are reprints.  Sorry if you own one and that makes you view it less favourably  (even though virtually everyone on here, including myself), have given props to anyone who has been able to own either printing).

-J.

Edited June 12, 2017 by Jaydogrules

[Jaydogrules]

10 minutes ago, MrBedrock said:

Again you can't be certain of any of your assertions. For instance you claim that the October copies sold out, while the general thought is that they were a mistake and the Novembers are the corrected version. If the Octobers sold so well why aren't there more surviving copies? I am sure you will counter me with a ton of theoretical hyperbole, but the truth is none of us know.

And the books are stamped.

You obviously have no knowledge of the printing industry.  Which is fine.  But the printing process, as described by pemart1966, when the reprint was done that is the cheapest, simplest, and ONLY way that black slug and November over print could be done.  That isn't debatable.  That isn't "opinion".  It simply how a printing press works.  

And even if the October copies were a "mistake", they were still released, and released first, still makes them the first printing and the November copies the reprints.  

-J.

Edited June 12, 2017 by Jaydogrules

[MrBedrock]

10 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said:

So you're "annoyed" by the people (almost everyone) who is properly calling the November reprints "reprints".  Got it.  

 

We are all just annoyed at how ignorant you are. And bored with your shtick. But you are good for a laugh when you show up around here, so I guess there is that.

[MrBedrock]

5 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said:

That isn't debatable.  That isn't "opinion".  

What isn't debatable is how ignorant you are. That isn't opinion. Fact.

[Jaydogrules]

Just now, MrBedrock said:

We are all just annoyed at how ignorant you are. And bored with your shtick. But you are good for a laugh when you show up around here, so I guess there is that.

So....no actual facts from you then.  

Got it.

I'm annoyed with "butt-hurt" passing for a valid response that anyone expects to be taken seriously.  

Guess we all have our little annoyances on these boards from time to time.  

-J.

[porcupine48]

[G.A.tor]

the most logical reason that the books were "stamped" post printing is that "if" goodman made the Nov "mini plate" adjustment, as someone mentioned, there would be no need for a black out stamp, as the Oct portion would have simply been covered or removed and never printed onto the cover, necessitating it being blacked out...

for this reason, it is most logical to admit the exterior covers were run same as before, with them being sent through some mechanical application covering the printed Oct date and adding the Nov date...

 

Edited June 12, 2017 by G.A.tor

[Jaydogrules]

2 minutes ago, G.A.tor said:

the most logical reason that the books were "stamped" post printing is that "if" goodman made the Nov "mini plate" adjustment, as someone mentioned, there would be no need for a black out stamp, as the Oct portion would have simply been covered or removed and never printed onto the cover, necessitating it being blacked out...

for this reason, it is most logical to admit the exterior covers were run same as before, with them being sent through some mechanical application covering the printed Oct date and adding the Nov date...

 

Gator, with due respect, again, that's not how the printing process works.  

The plates for the cover already existed.

Goodman placed the black slug over the existing plates on the reprint.  He placed a small "nov" plate above it to keep the book current for its November second printing.  

It really is quite simple and not the least bit convoluted.

-J.

[N e r V]

9 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said:

So....no actual facts from you then.  

Got it.

I'm annoyed with "butt-hurt" passing for a valid response that anyone expects to be taken seriously.  

Guess we all have our little annoyances on these boards from time to time.  

-J.

I'm not butt hurt. You stated your opinion. Fine. Some people disagree. Fine. You state your opinions again. Still fine. If you have something new to add. Fine again. 

Now I'm just finding you repetitive. We agree to disagree so let's move on. You're not going to change my mind without introducing some new facts to me and I'm guessing the same could be said of others. So yeah, I'm annoyed.

[Jaydogrules]

Just now, N e r V said:

I'm not butt hurt. You stated your opinion. Fine. Some people disagree. Fine. You state your opinions again. Still fine. If you have something new to add. Fine again. 

Now I'm just finding you repetitive. We agree to disagree so let's move on. You're not going to change my mind without introducing some new facts to me and I'm guessing the same could be said of others. So yeah, I'm annoyed.

 Fair enough.  

I just have a problem with someone calling someone else a "troll" simply because that other person is saying something they disagree with, not to mention also backing it up with a knowledge and understanding of the printing process.  

Until that comment, followed up by (natch) in typical juvenile pile on schoolyard fashion by Mr. Bedrock, the discussion was indeed generally quite civil.  

-J.

[MrBedrock]

13 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said:

So....no actual facts from you then.  

Got it.

I'm annoyed with "butt-hurt" passing for a valid response that anyone expects to be taken seriously.  

Guess we all have our little annoyances on these boards from time to time.  

-J.

No butt hurt here either, and you only consider your point of view as fact. And you are obviously bummed that I have a Marvel 1 and you don't (why else would you keep bringing it up?).

Valid response - there are Oct copies, and Oct copies with Nov overprinting or stamps. Any opinion beyond that is conjecture.

So whatever your response, it is conjecture, and annoying.

[N e r V]

1 minute ago, MrBedrock said:

No butt hurt here either, and you only consider your point of view as fact. And you are obviously bummed that I have a Marvel 1 and you don't (why else would you keep bringing it up?).

Valid response - there are Oct copies, and Oct copies with Nov overprinting or stamps. Any opinion beyond that is conjecture.

So whatever your response, it is conjecture, and annoying.

So says the schoolyard bully!

[Randall Dowling]

This conversation reminds me of Voltaire- "Doubt is an unpleasant condition but certainty is absurd"

Gator- that's really amazing that you had one of each at the same time.  I think there aren't many people that know the high end market as well as you and Mr. Bedrock (a.k.a. Tall Texan).  Thanks for your posts and insights as they're always valued.

[Jaydogrules]

22 minutes ago, MrBedrock said:

No butt hurt here either, and you only consider your point of view as fact. And you are obviously bummed that I have a Marvel 1 and you don't (why else would you keep bringing it up?).

Valid response - there are Oct copies, and Oct copies with Nov overprinting or stamps. Any opinion beyond that is conjecture.

So whatever your response, it is conjecture, and annoying.

Again , how a printing press works is not an "opinion".  Or debatable.  

Here let me make this analogy to make it really crystal clear.  

Classic artists used to create etchings in copper plates.  They would then forward those plates to be printed.  Those etchings are considered original, first state pieces of art.  Oftentimes the artist would instruct the printer to destroy the copper plate after running off however many were ordered.  They would do this in order to prevent any subsequent "states" of the piece from being produced, thus increasing the demand for that one first state.  

Sometimes however they would not order the copper plate be destroyed.  Any subsequent striking of that plate would be a second state, third state, etc.  Obviously the first state strikes will always be the most valuable and desired.  Goodman obviously still had the cover plates of Marvel 1 and simply ordered a re-strike when he saw how well the first prints were received.  But the november copies are quite plainly second printings.  It really is just common sense and the most likely explanation, even removing the explanation of how printers work. Should the reprints be worth less than the first prints with marvel 1?  Yes of course.  Do you think by saying that I'm saying the second prints should be worthless ? I'm assuming this is why you insist on believing in this baffling idea that a million copies of an untested book were printed, specifically with an October release date for some reason, only then not release all of them, wait a month, and then manually change 800,000 covers after the fact, to release a month later.   Not to mention why you feel the need to try to personally insult me.  Resorting to attacking the arguer and not the argument is bush league, and yeah, you're better than that.  

I'm happy you have a copy of the November printing of Marvel Comics 1.  I gave props to Ameri as well.  I can assure you that I am not bummed by any book anyone owns. That's just silly .  If I thought an action 1 was worth what they sell for I would buy one tomorrow.  That has nothing to do with this conversation.  

But and own what you like is what I always say.  

-J.

Edited June 12, 2017 by Jaydogrules

[G.A.tor]

31 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said:

Gator, with due respect, again, that's not how the printing process works.  

The plates for the cover already existed.

Goodman placed the black slug over the existing plates on the reprint.  He placed a small "nov" plate above it to keep the book current for its November second printing.  

It really is quite simple and not the least bit convoluted.

-J.

I'm not a printer , of course, but if a black slug was placed over the oct portion of the printing plate  , then how is it the oct is printed in white on every nov copy? Wouldn't the black slug prevent the "oct" from being printed on the cover?

 

[Jaydogrules]

10 minutes ago, G.A.tor said:

I'm not a printer , of course, but if a black slug was placed over the oct portion of the printing plate  , then how is it the oct is printed in white on every nov copy? Wouldn't the black slug prevent the "oct" from being printed on the cover?

 

Nope.  The plates are the plates.  The October date was still there.  So it still got printed.  The black slug, being added to the press later after the fact, was also printed.

Technically, even if what you originally said was true, that would still make the November copies "second state".  Once you "stop the presses", change the plates around, add something, or take it away and print something again, it is no longer considered a "first state" document.  

-J.

Edited June 12, 2017 by Jaydogrules

[G.A.tor]

Just now, Jaydogrules said:

Nope.  The plates are the plates.  The October date was still there.  So it still got printed.  

-J.

I'm still confused.  I'm clearly not understanding something. Why wouldn't the oct portion be blocked over (so as not to waste ink ) and how could the black circle simultaneously be applied in same spot? Or are multiple passes made over the same spot ? Legitimately confused. Googling offers no explanation 

[Jaydogrules]

9 minutes ago, G.A.tor said:

I'm still confused.  I'm clearly not understanding something. Why wouldn't the oct portion be blocked over (so as not to waste ink ) and how could the black circle simultaneously be applied in same spot? Or are multiple passes made over the same spot ? Legitimately confused. Googling offers no explanation 

Yes, you are correct.  A printing press is not like a Xerox machine.  You can't put your thumb on the glass to black out something on something you're copying.  The plates are what they are and will print the same way every time.  

I m not sure how expensive it would be to print a black dot. It's Certainly more cost effective than ordering an entirely new plate and reprinting it that way.   If goodman was as cheap as history says, what I am describing to you is in fact the cheapest and fastest way for him to achieve what he was trying to do.

And again, either way, even running 800,000 pre printed covers back through a printer (something that would have been extremely difficult and also, very cost ineffective) would still relegate the November copies to "second state".  You simply cannot add or change plates around, then print it again, and still call it a first state document.  

-J.

Edited June 12, 2017 by Jaydogrules

[Ameri]

1 hour ago, Sqeggs said:

There's also this one, which I think also comes in stamped and unstamped (10 cent) versions (as indicated by the label note).

CGC calls this a variant. It's not a reprint nor is the JIM 76. These were the original 10c copies with an overstamp (mechanical, by hand, whatever) due to the 12c transition. So, why pick on a NOV stamped Marvel 1 as a reprint? I guess because books like JIM 76 and this Love Romance 97 don't rate high enough to warrant such research. All the scrutiny is with Marvel 1 because someone once said that OCT copies had so many run off and then an additional 80,000 were ordered.  Like Gator says, that black slug should have obliterated the white OCT and did not. Seems like NOV copies can be considered variants just like the Love Romances 97. Stan Lee would be able to clear this up since he was in charge of these 1962 overstamp issues which is the same overstamp as the Marvel 1s and is the same company that published Marvel 1.    

[Jaydogrules]

10 minutes ago, Ameri said:

CGC calls this a variant. It's not a reprint nor is the JIM 76. These were the original 10c copies with an overstamp (mechanical, by hand, whatever) due to the 12c transition. So, why pick on a NOV stamped Marvel 1 as a reprint? I guess because books like JIM 76 and this Love Romance 97 don't rate high enough to warrant such research. All the scrutiny is with Marvel 1 because someone once said that OCT copies had so many run off and then an additional 80,000 were ordered.  Like Gator says, that black slug should have obliterated the white OCT and did not. Seems like NOV copies can be considered variants just like the Love Romances 97. Stan Lee would be able to clear this up since he was in charge of these 1962 overstamp issues which is the same overstamp as the Marvel 1s and is the same company that published Marvel 1.    

If that was printed and distributed at the same time it could be considered a "variant".  Is the cover date the same as the 10 cent version? I'm assuming so. 

If it was printed and distributed a month later, with its month of release altered to reflect its second printing date and release then it's a reprint like the November marvel 1. 

And no, the black slug would not have necessarily "obliterated" the October date on the plate.  Comic books have all kinds of shades and nuances and layering of colour.  Why can you see through some black slugs ?  Simple- the plate needed to be re-inked on some copies that made it out anyway.   I'm sure quality control was not more important to Goodman than speed at the time.  

-J.

Edited June 12, 2017 by Jaydogrules