Is this a bad idea? 3 3

[wurstisart]

I have artwork with stickers and stamps from dealers on the back ! And I am talking about art that I bought close to 20 years ago, so it was to some extent a common practice.

[r100comics]

2 hours ago, Grails said:

Maybe I'm the only one and others may benefit from my OCD.  I mean I love all the handwritten production notes in the margins and on the back but it was all part of the process.  Once the art leaves that state and is out in the world, I would absolutely prefer it to remain "original" to that time with nothing new added.  And there is always more OA out there that will fit the bill for me in the way I prefer it.

I'm with you on this, I think it's a terrible idea.

Original, hand-written production notes are cool but I don't want some random guys krap scrawled all over the back of my artwork.

Not only would it devalue the art but I wouldn't buy it period.

[ESeffinga]

I'd never do it myself. It runs against how I am wired. If maybe it had always been the way things were done, I'd be wired differently, but at this late stage of the game, it just wouldn't sit right with me. And I have bought from artists and dealers that would pencil prices on the pages in the margins, or on the back. Pretty much since I started buying art. But always in pencil, as it is the least permanent/destructive method. And I'm the sort that leaves those on. I know some folks who would erase that as soon as it came in.

As to writing in pen... boy that CAN become an issue that causes damage. It depends on what's used.

Not all comic artists use materials that are lets say, as quality as others. So yes it can show through. More concerning to me is what kind of pen? Some folks might be signing stuff with a felt tip pen. Doesn't have to be a sharpie. Those Micron pens for instance, can bleed. Markers or felt tips of many kinds can and do fade, but also bleed. And sometimes the solvents bleed even faster and leave behind a very light yellow "ghost" onto other surfaces.

I once had a small stack of cheap inconsequential sketches in the pockets of one of my old portfolios. One of them was done by the artist with a mix of ballpoint and felt tip micron pen. Totally forgot they were in there, until one day I cleaned out the portfolio like 10 years later. The solvent used in the micron pens not only bled through to the back of that drawing, leaving a reverse light yellow drawing on the back, they also migrated onto the piece is was sitting against, so that drawing had a yellow ghost on the face of it from the drawing it was behind, and the drawing on top of it had the solvent lightly bled onto the back of it. That one was a heavy paper, and it didn't make it to the front of it.

And I've mentioned here before a series of marker based drawings that have left similar ghosting on the portfolio sleeves I've kept them in for years. Or the ballpoint pen where the ink stuck to a sleeve.

Anyway, the takeaway from me was I don't much buy marker based art anymore. Forget the fading, what about the bleeding issues, long term? Not worth the risk to me, when there's so much out there worth while. I don't let any art touch any more, no matter how cheap.

For these same reasons, I'd be too afraid someone who isn't so self conscious, would sign the back with whatever they writing implement they have lying around.

No thanks!

 

[Michael Browning]

6 hours ago, Michaeld said:

Your not interested In who owned it before you Michael. We get it. But what is the harm in others knowing some of the history of their pieces if they are intersted. If it doesn't diminish the value what is the harm?

You're the OP that said it would be written in PEN.

What is so wrong with leaving the art alone and putting all of that info on a card that you can slip inside the bag? (or, if you're so bent on using pen, then put it inside a comic bag before you slip it down into the art sleeve.)

Yes, pen certainly does bleed through and can cause other types of damage. 

I think this is some kind of issue where YOU want to be remembered with the art (50 years from now, you're hoping whoever gets the art will go "Oh wow, not only did Jack Kirby pencil it and Vince Colletta inked it - but MichaelD once held this in his hands and, omigosh, OWNED it, too!") just like the artist, inked, writer, colorist, letterer, editor and, of course, the previous owner. Because we all know that that makes you part of the comic's history, right?

[romitaman]

i see zero problem with it..... its fascinating to me seeing 15 dollar price tags on 50k pieces of art now..it's nostalgic and it doesnt affect the art whatsoever. so long as its not done in a way where ink could bleed through..and pencil certainly wont harm a thing either.... i've penciled artists names on back of art so i didnt forget at times who drew it when i did a deal for a new piece to an artist i dont know well...,and it really doesnt matter as it doesnt affect the art nor its value at all......... people are getting too anal over this.   I was even thinking 10-15 years ago of using invisible ink on back of ALL art in my collection in case it ever got stolen one day and then a UV light could see my name on back if someone said they never stole my art when they did........but i've not done this as i bought a vault basically and have the best security system around now in my new home so i feel much better now than my previous home about my art security.

Edited September 8, 2017 by romitaman

[vodou]

11 hours ago, Michael Browning said:

You're talking about art on canvas and not WHITE PAPER through which the names can show and through which the ink can bleed. I don't think anyone buys original art because of the previous owner's name written in ink on the back.

No bleed or show through with ballpoint pen. LOL.

[vodou]

10 hours ago, Michaeld said:

Is anyone tracking sales?

Yes. I captured all the details from everything I've bought and likewise the (much) fewer times I've sold. Browning has inspired me though, now everything that goes out the door will have the guy before me added (by me), myself, and the guy after me added to (as a courtesy, I'm all about customer service!) I wanna do my part

[wurstisart]

28 minutes ago, romitaman said:

i see zero problem with it..... its fascinating to me seeing 15 dollar price tags on 50k pieces of art now..it's nostalgic and it doesnt affect the art whatsoever. so long as its not done in a way where ink could bleed through..and pencil certainly wont harm a thing either.... i've penciled artists names on back of art so i didnt forget at times who drew it when i did a deal for a new piece to an artist i dont know well...,and it really doesnt matter as it doesnt affect the art nor its value at all......... people are getting too anal over this.   I was even thinking 10-15 years ago of using invisible ink on back of ALL art in my collection in case it ever got stolen one day and then a UV light could see my name on back if someone said they never stole my art when they did........but i've not done this as i bought a vault basically and have the best security system around now in my new home so i feel much better now than my previous home about my art security.

I agree with Mike here. What we collect is part of a production process. Not "fine art".

Do you know if a certain stain on the art is from the printing process or coffe from the artist or the collector you bought it from ?

Do you know who wrote what note on the art and when ? Or whether the art was cut on a certain side ? And by whom ?

I doubt we will ever know all the answers.

We are all on the same page that a marker or ball pen should not be used, but pencil on the back is really not a problem.

If we want to convince the person that started the thread to solve it otherwise, that's ok, but us taking it to the OCD level with pencils on the back, is a bit of a stretch.

To all that claim they would not buy art if pencils are on the back, have you really asked the dealers you buy from to send you a scan from the back or the person on eBay to send it to you ? I doubt it ...

But look everyone is entitled to their opinion.

[vodou]

3 hours ago, ESeffinga said:

I'd never do it myself. It runs against how I am wired. If maybe it had always been the way things were done, I'd be wired differently, but at this late stage of the game, it just wouldn't sit right with me. And I have bought from artists and dealers that would pencil prices on the pages in the margins, or on the back. Pretty much since I started buying art. But always in pencil, as it is the least permanent/destructive method. And I'm the sort that leaves those on. I know some folks who would erase that as soon as it came in.

As to writing in pen... boy that CAN become an issue that causes damage. It depends on what's used.

Not all comic artists use materials that are lets say, as quality as others. So yes it can show through. More concerning to me is what kind of pen? Some folks might be signing stuff with a felt tip pen. Doesn't have to be a sharpie. Those Micron pens for instance, can bleed. Markers or felt tips of many kinds can and do fade, but also bleed. And sometimes the solvents bleed even faster and leave behind a very light yellow "ghost" onto other surfaces.

I once had a small stack of cheap inconsequential sketches in the pockets of one of my old portfolios. One of them was done by the artist with a mix of ballpoint and felt tip micron pen. Totally forgot they were in there, until one day I cleaned out the portfolio like 10 years later. The solvent used in the micron pens not only bled through to the back of that drawing, leaving a reverse light yellow drawing on the back, they also migrated onto the piece is was sitting against, so that drawing had a yellow ghost on the face of it from the drawing it was behind, and the drawing on top of it had the solvent lightly bled onto the back of it. That one was a heavy paper, and it didn't make it to the front of it.

And I've mentioned here before a series of marker based drawings that have left similar ghosting on the portfolio sleeves I've kept them in for years. Or the ballpoint pen where the ink stuck to a sleeve.

Anyway, the takeaway from me was I don't much buy marker based art anymore. Forget the fading, what about the bleeding issues, long term? Not worth the risk to me, when there's so much out there worth while. I don't let any art touch any more, no matter how cheap.

For these same reasons, I'd be too afraid someone who isn't so self conscious, would sign the back with whatever they writing implement they have lying around.

No thanks!

 

Eric the (real) takeaway here is (for many, many reasons): you've got to 'fan' your full collection on a regular basis, at a minimum annually but probably more like quarterly. Even if your collection is only a number of framed and up on the wall pieces, great idea to pull them down several times a year, examine all hidden surfaces, including the wall it sits on for anything of concern. Maybe even open the back (not a fan of sealed back frames here!) and check in the nooks and crannies too...for anything that's not good. And for those of you with significant volume sitting in stacks or even one-to-a-pocket portfolios or sleeves: pull 'em all out several times a year, let some fresh air in and see if there's anything growing, changing, or smelly going on. Better to figure this out a month or two in versus years or even decades later when it's all over!

[SquareChaos]

I am still sometimes surprised by the rules that people make up for themselves in this hobby. There are the general, obvious ones (don't damage / modify the 'art', etc), but then it seems like some collectors take things far further and start adhering to items that I find difficult to rationalize. If nothing else, it makes for interesting conversation.

Edited September 8, 2017 by SquareChaos

[Weird Paper]

I believe Jerry Bails' name and address are written on the back of my JLA 21 page. I like that in that it represents a part of the early history of comics fandom. I also love seeing the old (cheap!) prices written on the back of art. But the foundation of the hobby is established and most of us are not likely to be the Jerry Bails and Roy Thomases of the future, so, double standard -- it was okay then, now, not so much.

 

[stinkininkin]

4 hours ago, romitaman said:

i see zero problem with it..... its fascinating to me seeing 15 dollar price tags on 50k pieces of art now..it's nostalgic and it doesnt affect the art whatsoever. so long as its not done in a way where ink could bleed through..and pencil certainly wont harm a thing either.... i've penciled artists names on back of art so i didnt forget at times who drew it when i did a deal for a new piece to an artist i dont know well...,and it really doesnt matter as it doesnt affect the art nor its value at all......... people are getting too anal over this.   I was even thinking 10-15 years ago of using invisible ink on back of ALL art in my collection in case it ever got stolen one day and then a UV light could see my name on back if someone said they never stole my art when they did........but i've not done this as i bought a vault basically and have the best security system around now in my new home so i feel much better now than my previous home about my art security.

This!  Like Mike, I almost PREFER old prices be PENCILLED on those old masterpieces, front or back.  It's very nostalgic.  I've been buying OA since 1980 and that's the way it's always been done.  Maybe if I was a new collector, especially one coming from the world of comic collecting I'd feel different, but I'm not and I don't.

Scott

 

[ESeffinga]

3 hours ago, vodou said:

Eric the (real) takeaway here is (for many, many reasons): you've got to 'fan' your full collection on a regular basis, at a minimum annually but probably more like quarterly. Even if your collection is only a number of framed and up on the wall pieces, great idea to pull them down several times a year, examine all hidden surfaces, including the wall it sits on for anything of concern. Maybe even open the back (not a fan of sealed back frames here!) and check in the nooks and crannies too...for anything that's not good. And for those of you with significant volume sitting in stacks or even one-to-a-pocket portfolios or sleeves: pull 'em all out several times a year, let some fresh air in and see if there's anything growing, changing, or smelly going on. Better to figure this out a month or two in versus years or even decades later when it's all over!

Totally agree with you here!

 

[Michaeld]

9 hours ago, Michael Browning said:

I think this is some kind of issue where YOU want to be remembered with the art (50 years from now, you're hoping whoever gets the art will go "Oh wow, not only did Jack Kirby pencil it and Vince Colletta inked it - but MichaelD once held this in his hands and, omigosh, OWNED it, too!") just like the artist, inked, writer, colorist, letterer, editor and, of course, the previous owner. Because we all know that that makes you part of the comic's history, right?

Michael has exposed me. I merely seek my name to live forever upon the back of comic book art. My greatest sin is that I crave the lime light (I also love the night life. I've got to boogie). But alas in my desperate attempt at everlasting life I flew too close to the sun. I almost had it all until I ran up against the Saint Of OA who's name is only whispered in private quarters... Michael Browning. Fare thee well fellow conservators of comic art. My fall from near immortality begins. 

By the way tonight I'm posting a really beautiful piece by Riley Rossmo on my CAF gallery. You should have a look.   

Edited September 8, 2017 by Michaeld
misspelling

[ESeffinga]

1 hour ago, Michaeld said:

By the way tonight I'm posting a really beautiful piece by Riley Rossmo on my CAF gallery. You should have a look.   

Oooh. Cool!

But wait, did you write your name on the back of it?
Trying to decide whether to look at it or not.

 

 

 

 

 

(pssst. It's a joke!)

Edited September 8, 2017 by ESeffinga

[Michaeld]

2 hours ago, ESeffinga said:

Oooh. Cool!

But wait, did you write your name on the back of it?
Trying to decide whether to look at it or not.

 

 

 

 

 

(pssst. It's a joke!)

I'm not going to sign the back but I will use my personalized four inch diameter pressure stamp right in the middle of it. Just so anyone who may own it in the future will know who it once belong to.  (pssst. It may be a joke!)

[vodou]

20 minutes ago, Michaeld said:

I'm not going to sign the back but I will use my personalized four inch diameter pressure stamp right in the middle of it. Just so anyone who may own it in the future will know who it once belong to.

Phhhw. If you're not blindstamping the bristol nearly through you're not livin' life. (Possibly not joking!)

[The Shoveler]

4 hours ago, Michaeld said:

My greatest sin is that I crave the lime light (I also love the night life. I've got to boogie)... I flew too close to the sun...

Well, living in the limelight is the universal dream.

Mama always told me not to look into the eye's of the sun.  But, mama, that's where the fun is.

 

[Flambit]

I generally won't bother signing the back if I have a pencil piece, like, say, one of those Kirby Heroes and Villains character studies. Instead, I will just go ahead and ink it myself with a sharpie or a ballpoint.  That way I can justify just signing my name in ink on the front, right next to Kirby's!  My providence has been established and I've actually made a contribution to the piece!  Win/win!
 

[bisquitodoom]

There's often graffiti in caves, and it's generally split up into 2 types.  Historical graffiti is from quite some time ago, before it was generally accepted as wrong to deface natural features.  It's an interesting curiosity and sometimes offers a glimpse into times past when people thought of things very differently.  More recent graffiti is vandalism, making a mark on something important to change it forever.  The motive doesn't really matter - whether for signifying possession, art, furthering the ego, etc.   Basically people value caves differently than they did in times past and have realized that they're a finite resource that needs to be preserved for future generations.  

I look at art much the same way.  A $20K piece with $50 written on the back is an interesting window into the time before people valued comic art as art.  Writing your name on the back of a piece now would be an entirely different thing.  Might as well write it on the back of a painting or chisel it into the bottom of a sculpture.