INVESTMENT COLLECTIBLES does it again!!

[sterlingcomics]

I thought the whole CGC doing pressing was settled a while back: They have told me that they are not engaging in this. Do you have information indicating otherwise.

[sterlingcomics]

I guess I'm missing references to the pressing matter and this company. Anyone care to enlighten the clueless one?

 

I don't think any connection has ever been discussed on these boards.

 

I thought putting " does it again" in the subject title was Comgeek poking fun at the topic.

 

Thanks, I'll now go and put my head back in the sand.

[esquirecomics]

I thought the whole CGC doing pressing was settled a while back: They have told me that they are not engaging in this. Do you have information indicating otherwise.

 

My understanding of the situation was that the only thing settled was that CGC itself would not have in-house pressing but that perhaps its' parent company or a related off-shot might still do so.

 

Anyone know any differently?

[tth2]

Collectors who think that the number of HG copies of SA and BA is going to increase primarily because of pressing are deluding themselves.

 

You really think I'm deluding myself? That seems a bit much. You think that if CGC offers in-house pressing that will have no effect on the longterm prices realized for silver and bronze in highgrade? (I would argue that there is a little less concern with highgrade gold, because there are far fewer books to go around). I really can't see how you think I have my head stuck in the sand on this issue.

First, I don't think CGC are doing in-house pressing. Second, I think there's a lot of HG BA and late SA books sitting out there that are HG without pressing. I think THEY will be the primary reason for an increase in the number of slabbed HG SA and BA books. I think the incremental number of slabbed HG books that "become" HG because of pressing will be immaterial compared to the supply of "real" HG books.

 

I guess what I'm really saying is you've built up pressing into too big a deal. It's not that you have your head in the sand, but you're starting to see bogeymen behind every tree. Will books be pressed? Yes. Will so many of them be pressed that they start significantly distorting the census numbers? I don't think so. BTW, I think you made the right choice in selling your HG BAs because of an impending rush of supply, it's just that I think the supply is going to be mostly "real" HG books and not mostly pressed HG books. Remember, it's not that cheap to get a pro to press your book, and you also have to become good in identifying good candidates for pressing.

[esquirecomics]

Mark, I understanding what you're saying, but here's the rub...

 

Those who are suspected of pressing, be they a particular auction house, or certain well known dealers, continue to be extremely successful. In fact, they are consistently some of the most successful sellers in the hobby.

 

How is anything going to change if the anti-pressing crowd does not change their buying habits to reflect their opinion?

 

I don't like paying $2.50 for a gallon of gas, and I complain about it all the time, but I still buy the gas. Should I expect the gas companies to lower their prices when I haven't changed my buying habits?

 

Jeff, I think you are asking for too much to happen too early in the game. An attempt to change a policy that has been utilized secretively for many years to such an extent that it has become deeply instilled cannot occur overnight. But changes in attitude are occuring.

 

Some examples have already been noted in this thread. Clearly there are others. Marnin Rosenberg has actively taken a public stance, and while he might have lost credibility with some, or even many, by his less than refined responses, his history in the business is difficult to beat or even compete with and people are listening. Susan C's The Restoration Lab's new positiion definitely influenced people.

 

And I can tell you that my buying habits have changed. While I continue to purchase books from Heritage, which has certainly knowingly sold pressed books and some would say done more than just that, I can tell you that I have refrained from spending at least $100k on additional books that I believe were pressed, or at the very least was able to ascertain for myself that the grade had been changed through some process.

 

Furthermore, there are some prominent dealers, who I suspect of engaging in pressing or the practice of selling pressed books, that now unequivocally I would not purchase a book from unless, at the very least, they execute a contract in writing that the book in question had not been pressed to their knowledge.

 

The "movement", if one wishes to call it that, against pressing (I don't like the term "anti-pressing" b/c it does not accurately describe what is going on), particularly undisclosed pressing, is in its infancy. It is growing. Give it time.

[DiceX]

Collectors who think that the number of HG copies of SA and BA is going to increase primarily because of pressing are deluding themselves.

 

You really think I'm deluding myself? That seems a bit much. You think that if CGC offers in-house pressing that will have no effect on the longterm prices realized for silver and bronze in highgrade? (I would argue that there is a little less concern with highgrade gold, because there are far fewer books to go around). I really can't see how you think I have my head stuck in the sand on this issue.

 

If anyone is buying 9.4/9.6 books that are currently "Top Census" hoping to cash in sometime in the future, they should expect the inevitable.

Pressing or not, does anyone actually think that all the high grade books have been slabbed?

Don't kid yourselves.

[shrunkenhead]

I thought the whole CGC doing pressing was settled a while back: They have told me that they are not engaging in this. Do you have information indicating otherwise.

 

My understanding of the situation was that the only thing settled was that CGC itself would not have in-house pressing but that perhaps its' parent company or a related off-shot might still do so.

 

Anyone know any differently?

 

This is my understanding as well, unless I'm misinformed. Sorry if I earlier misused the term "in house pressing," though I believe that if CGC's parent company offers the service, it's basically the same thing.

[shrunkenhead]

 

If anyone is buying 9.4/9.6 books that are currently "Top Census" hoping to cash in sometime in the future, they should expect the inevitable.

Pressing or not, does anyone actually think that all the high grade books have been slabbed?

Don't kid yourselves.

 

Amen. This is the crux of the argument, really, pressing or no.

[awe4one]

does anyone actually think that all the high grade books have been slabbed?

 

Some of the most vehement arguments during previous "crash" threads were based on exactly this premise. There are indeed those out there, some on this Forum, who truly believe most all raw HG Silver, and yes even some Bronze, comics have been slabbed...

 

Jim

[THE_BEYONDER]

Will books be pressed? Yes. Will so many of them be pressed that they start significantly distorting the census numbers? I don't think so.

 

What percentage of pressed books do you feel are resubs ?

[nearmint]

Mark, I understanding what you're saying, but here's the rub...

 

Those who are suspected of pressing, be they a particular auction house, or certain well known dealers, continue to be extremely successful. In fact, they are consistently some of the most successful sellers in the hobby.

 

How is anything going to change if the anti-pressing crowd does not change their buying habits to reflect their opinion?

 

I don't like paying $2.50 for a gallon of gas, and I complain about it all the time, but I still buy the gas. Should I expect the gas companies to lower their prices when I haven't changed my buying habits?

 

Jeff, I think you are asking for too much to happen too early in the game. An attempt to change a policy that has been utilized secretively for many years to such an extent that it has become deeply instilled cannot occur overnight. But changes in attitude are occuring.

 

Some examples have already been noted in this thread. Clearly there are others. Marnin Rosenberg has actively taken a public stance, and while he might have lost credibility with some, or even many, by his less than refined responses, his history in the business is difficult to beat or even compete with and people are listening. Susan C's The Restoration Lab's new positiion definitely influenced people.

 

And I can tell you that my buying habits have changed. While I continue to purchase books from Heritage, which has certainly knowingly sold pressed books and some would say done more than just that, I can tell you that I have refrained from spending at least $100k on additional books that I believe were pressed, or at the very least was able to ascertain for myself that the grade had been changed through some process.

 

Furthermore, there are some prominent dealers, who I suspect of engaging in pressing or the practice of selling pressed books, that now unequivocally I would not purchase a book from unless, at the very least, they execute a contract in writing that the book in question had not been pressed to their knowledge.

 

The "movement", if one wishes to call it that, against pressing (I don't like the term "anti-pressing" b/c it does not accurately describe what is going on), particularly undisclosed pressing, is in its infancy. It is growing. Give it time.

 

Mark, my statements were in regard to the state of the hobby today. I'm merely stating what has to happen for things to change. You're simply saying those things will happen over time. We're not far apart on this.

 

But, I think it's a tougher path than you've laid out. Susan's proclamation was over-hyped before its arrival, and anti-climactic upon its delivery. Many thought she was going to come out against pressing, when in fact, she merely came out against undisclosed pressing. Nowhere in her statement does she state that professional pressing damages a comic. In fact, she continues to press books, as long as it's accompanied by additional resto work. The timing was bad as well, coming off her interview on The Comic Zone where she said she was turning away minor, mundane jobs anyway, to focus on more detailed work, which she found more interesting. In other words, it's easy to take an ethical stand against undisclosed pressing when she'd already given up the income pressing jobs would have afforded her.

 

And there's always the big two obstacles...1)The inability to accurately detect whether a book has been pressed, and 2)The lack of conclusive evidence that pressing damages a comic. Without one or both of those, it's going to be very difficult to establish a significant movement against the practice of pressing.

 

You also have to keep in mind that a great many people, not just dealers but collectors as well, don't want solutions to those obstacles. Sure, it would be great if we could determine prior to purchase if a book had been pressed or not, but few of us want to know if our existing collection contains pressed books. Few are willing to accept that instant devaluation.

 

The movement has an uphill climb. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out.

[Red Hook]

BTW.....Marnin is actively encouraging other dealers to use his gorgeous Pressing Free Zone Logo.

 

This new PRESS FREE logo ensures that ComicCollectors.net / CollectorsAssemble.com is firmly aware of the lineage of this specific comic book, and that it has NEVER been altered, compromised, nor recreated to a higher grade through the process of Undisclosed PRESSING RESTORATION.

 

ComicCollectors.net/CollectorAssemble.com invites all dealers and collector-dealers to use this logo in any manner they so choose. Please become a member of this growing network in support of full disclosure of this rampant, deceptive and unethical practice.

 

Of course, if dealers and collector-dealers start putting it on t-shirts. cocktail napkins and bath towels, residuals will be actively pursued!

[comicworm]

You guys seem to be missing a good point concerning the census. I know some collectors who buy slabbed books in high grade. When they recieve them, they open up the slab, throw it away and add the book to their collection. ( I personally keep all books slabbed that I buy graded). Anyway, when they want to sell the book, they resubmit it for grading! Now here is the dilema. The census still shows that there is another high grade copy out there and now there is another! And no, I know these collectors do not bother to send the label back to CGC so they can update the census.

 

The census is just a guide. Not accurate, but just a guide. Don't use it for your buying habits. Just keep this in mind. I know at least 7 different collectors personally who do this!

[blazingbob]

This is absolutely true, there are a number of pre-65 issues that are totally out of whack because of crack out/resubmits. I have purchased some books that were cracked out and the labels thrown out. One of Heritages Justice League #1 9.0's was a previously graded book, cracked out, sold to another dealer and resubmitted. I know the label wasn't with the book so needless to say I know that the census on Justice League #1's is not correct.

 

The same goes for dealers who are buying slabbed books, cracking out the book because they think it's undergraded and selling it raw (Higher grade also). I guarantee the label isn't being sent back in. Again, same thing may or may not happen. Census goes out of sync with reality.

 

To me the census is the same as the overstreet guide. It's a guide, not the concrete truth of how many there are.

[blazingbob]

Well, I would rather see the OPEC logo since I am one of the founding members!

 

Over Pricing Expensive Comics!

[goldust40]

Well, I would rather see the OPEC logo since I am one of the founding members!

 

Over Pricing Expensive Comics!

 

[OldGuy]

I crack out 90% of the CGC books I buy and throw out every label.

[burntboy]

BTW.....Marnin is actively encouraging other dealers to use his gorgeous Pressing Free Zone Logo.

 

This new PRESS FREE logo ensures that ComicCollectors.net / CollectorsAssemble.com is firmly aware of the lineage of this specific comic book, and that it has NEVER been altered, compromised, nor recreated to a higher grade through the process of Undisclosed PRESSING RESTORATION.

 

ComicCollectors.net/CollectorAssemble.com invites all dealers and collector-dealers to use this logo in any manner they so choose. Please become a member of this growing network in support of full disclosure of this rampant, deceptive and unethical practice.

 

Of course, if dealers and collector-dealers start putting it on t-shirts. cocktail napkins and bath towels, residuals will be actively pursued!

 

let me play Captain Obvious here and assume that you were the artistic director???

 

where can we see it???

[nearmint]

I should mention that although this has turned into another pressing thread, that I have no first-hand knowledge of Comgeek not disclosing a press job when he knew it had been done. I've purchased books from Steve in the past, and would happily do so again.

[bobel]

Mark, I understanding what you're saying, but here's the rub...

 

Those who are suspected of pressing, be they a particular auction house, or certain well known dealers, continue to be extremely successful.

 

If Dealer A buys books with an eye toward which ones He can increase in value by pressing Spine roll out he gains a tremendous advantage over Dealer B who doesn't. He either has a higher net profit or he has room to roll some of the increased value of his pressed book sales into paying a little more for collections than a Dealer who doesn't press, increasing the likelihood He will get the books. I may of overstated myself saying it was the norm. Darwin and Biz 101 says it will become the norm if it remains undetectable. Those ethically challanged Dealers who specialize in expensive older books and are willing to press gain a tremendous advantage over the rest of you.

I respect and admire any Dealer not pressing expensive books or revealing pressed books(I don't think I've ever seen a book on Ebay advertised as pressed) I just think you are swimming upstream. I can be pretty cynical but, when it comes to money it's not misplaced. There are too many people willing to toss ethics aside for $. Comics aren't different they're just the same as every other thing sold. I have no way of knowing if a properly pressed book was pressed so, I'm no longer sweating it.

 

Custome Service aside( I read the horror story) Investment has raw books advertised as restored on their website. I don't see that often. The fact they are revealing a raw book as restored does tell me something good about their ethics.