BLACK PANTHER 2 directed by Ryan Coogler (TBD) 8 8

[drotto]

On 11/11/2022 at 3:34 PM, ExNihilo said:

Which is honestly great to me.  I completely agree that Hollywood has bent the knee to China far too often in the last 10+ years with film sequences or partnerships in China just for the sake of catering to a Chinese audience.  Transformers, The Dark Knight, The Martian, and others all have plots that divert to China/Hong Kong for no reason other than appease the Chinese government into allowing them to do business.  Storytelling shouldn't make such sacrifices.

I think it might just be a change in the movie industry since the pandemic, but I've been going to preview nights for Marvel films since GotG2 (prior to that, I was going on Fridays), and I've noticed theaters are not as packed on preview night as they used to be.  Last nights viewing of Black Panther (granted, I went to a 10:30pm showing for a movie that stretched to 3 hours when you include previews) probably wasn't even half full.  And I don't feel it's a movie that will bear repeat views in theaters, and I don't think you're gonna get a strong word of mouth from the African American community to see it in theaters the way there was that push with the first Black Panther movie.  Adjusted for inflation, I'd be surprised if this passed the original.

This is by no means a scientific sample.  I was looking for a time to see the film tonight (Friday), and the theater I usually go to has seats for every showing at this point, seems to be running about 75% to 80% booked. For tomorrow, most of the showing I clicked were maybe 20% booked. The newest Thursday night preview numbers have Wakanda Forever are around the same as Thor 4 at $28 million.  Granted it is ahead of the originals Thursday numbers, but after that the first movie was pushed by great word of mouth, and phenomenal marketing on Marvel's part. This is shaping up to have a strong opening with a steep drop second weekend, that has become more pronounced with Marvel movies after Endgame. 

 

Most of the reviews I have seen or watched at this point seem much more muted than for the first Black Panther. Saying its good, possibly the best of Phase 4 (minus Spider-Man), but still not up there with what came before.  At this point, I think I will be seeing it on Sunday. I agree this will come in below the first movie, I still think in the $850 million range.  Certainly successful, likely profitable, but the $1.3 billion of the first is seeming very unlikely. While entertaining, the MCU films seem to have lost the re-watchability that drove the earlier movies to the stratosphere. 

 

As for the word of mouth in the African American communities.  Much of that came from African American men relating to either Black Panther or Killmonger, coupled with the storyline of Black Panther's relationship with his father, country, and legacy. The elements of the Wakanda nation, and the pride connected with that will still be in this film, but how much will Black Panther's absence and Killmonger's reduced role diminish that demographics enthusiasm for the movie? Where the first film felt targeted African American men, this feels like it is more targeted at African American Women.  I almost hate to bring this up again (a common theme in phase 4), but will that affect the box office? I think they will see the movie, but I question again whether that group feel compelled to see it multiple times.

Edited November 11, 2022 by drotto

[Artboy99]

On 11/11/2022 at 7:14 AM, @therealsilvermane said:

By my analysis, this particularly popular YouTuber is anti-woke and anti-gender swapping of heroes. You get that in his indictment of Captain Marvel. When he criticizes Eternals, his first critique is "It's woke!" and that he didn't want to see a particular scene (two men kissing) because that's not his lifestyle. He ravages She-Hulk for its ravaging of anti-wokeness. The two big takeaways from his "breakdown" of Wakanda Forever, besides he was bored at times, was that Marvel should have recast T'Challa (or not given the mantle to a woman) and  that they should have kept Namor's origins the same as the comics, as in, not swapped for one of Mexican descent. He seems to approach these Marvel Phase Four movies/series from a typical anti-woke point of view.

As for being bored, he said the same of Dune. It seems if he watches any big budget fantasy action movie that dares to be about something other than good guys beating up bad guys with lots of special effects, he starts to check out. I think subtlety and nuance is lost on this guy.

That's my take.

I think his opinion comes from knowing established origins and histories of characters.

Example: the Submariner has a deeply rooted existence in Marvel comics since 1940. I can understand why someone wouldn't like that he is changed to being an Aztec from Talocan when he has been from Atlantis for 82 years.

Killing T'challa is a mistake, they should have recast the character and then a different actor carries on the mantle instead of having the franchise changed to being yet another where a woman replaces the "strong male". How many different Bruce Wayne/Batmans have we had? 

All just opinions of course, i will form my own after i see the film.

[ExNihilo]

On 11/11/2022 at 1:40 PM, drotto said:

I think they will see the movie, but I question again whether that group feel compelled to see it multiple times.

I don't know if it just happened to be my viewing or if this might be a possible trend, but the demographic for the show I went to had a much larger hispanic presence than I think I've seen in any other Preview Night.  It makes me wonder if Namor will motivate Latin/South American viewers to watch the way the first movie drew African Americans.  I by no means am saying it'll draw those kind of numbers, but even if it's a slight increase, I think it's great if people see a character on screen that inspires them, especially when that character is portrayed well.  I know that Marvel purists will bemoan how the character on screen doesn't faithfully recreate the published version, but all said, they did a good job keeping core traits while doing a great job explaining the characters MCU background.

[ExNihilo]

On 11/11/2022 at 1:47 PM, Artboy99 said:

instead of having the franchise changed to being yet another where a woman replaces the "strong male"

This is likely a case of me just being oblivious, but the theme of "strong female" didn't even occur to me until mentioned a few times in this thread.  Like I should have known given the male leads (other than Namor) all have very little screen time, but the story is done in such a way that the theme of "empowered women" didn't feel heavy handed or forced.  I imagine some will question that with "you don't think replaced characters isn't forced?" but I think knowing that at one point in the comics Shuri does become Black Panther makes me ignore the replacement argument.  That and I enjoy the journey she takes in adopting the mantle.  There's an emotional toll she has to endure.  It's not like Carol just being imbued with powers and then suddenly becoming OP.  The fight sequences don't play out like Endgame where all the women come together for a pose and fight number.  That kind of stuff feels like it's done for social points and not necessarily to drive the plot.  At least the strong female presence in Wakanda Forever feels natural towards moving the story forward.

Well, everything but the inclusion of Ironheart.  While I feel the actress did a great job being a teenager (far better than Kamala Khan), I don't think the character added anything.  She was merely there to prepare audiences for the upcoming Disney+ series.

Edited November 11, 2022 by ExNihilo

[@therealsilvermane]

On 11/11/2022 at 5:04 PM, ExNihilo said:

I feel the actress did a great job being a teenager (far better than Kamala Khan)

Woah, hold on now. In my very strong opinion, in no way does MCU Riri Williams in Wakanda Forever capture being a teenager better than Kamala Khan in her show. I mean, for me, the Ms. Marvel series was even a better mirror to the awkwardness of being a high school teenager than the Spider-Man Homecoming films. IMO, Iman Vellani simply nailed high school teenager suddenly becomes super-hero.

Edited November 12, 2022 by @therealsilvermane

[Qalyar]

I thought this was very good. It's not as good as the first one, but that's an immensely high bar. It's also a different kind of movie; it doesn't really spoil anything to say that the film's themes of loss, grief, and vengeance are actually as important (and given as much screen time) as the tentpole combats (although those are done well this time).

I understand that there's going to be some reluctance to the Mesoamerican origin for Namor. Yeah, he's ruled comic book Atlantis for 80 years. But Atlantis comes with hundreds of years of mythology and, yeah, also the fact that DC got "Atlantis" on screen first. But here's the real thing; this origin story for Namor? It's good to tie the superheroics (or super-antiheroics, because Namor) to real world culture. It's good to present a Mystic Earth setting that isn't entirely spawned from American and European history and tradition. But most of all, it was just good. I like this take on Namor. "Respect for the source material", as they say, doesn't require a slavish devotion to it. And Namor isn't a badass iconic character because he specifically rules Atlantis; rather, he's memorable because of what he does, and why... and so by any measure, this is a successful Namor.

EDIT: Also, like everyone else says, Angela Bassett is a force of nature in this film. If you see this film and somehow disagree with that, we can't really be friends.

Edited November 12, 2022 by Qalyar

[@therealsilvermane]

For me, Wakanda Forever was not as good as Black Panther in some ways, but also surpassed the first film in other ways.

The opening Marvel Studios logo and the beginning scenes of the film were pretty powerful. The flow lost a little steam for me when our heroes travel to America, a section which kind of paralleled the heroes going to South Korea in the first film, just not as good. Like the first movie, I saw an episodic nature to how the chapters of the movie are separated and structured, perhaps adding to why the movie felt slightly disjointed in the first half. Maybe Riri's intro was a little too outside the rest of the movie for me. However, I thought the last half of the movie is among some of the best stuff in the MCU to date.

As for the mid-credits scene, THAT'S how they keep it going...

Edited November 12, 2022 by @therealsilvermane

[D84]

On 11/11/2022 at 6:34 PM, Qalyar said:

EDIT: Also, like everyone else says, Angela Bassett is a force of nature in this film. If you see this film and somehow disagree with that, we can't really be friends.

Angela Bassett is a force of nature in everything. 

[Bosco685]

[Jaydogrules]

On 11/12/2022 at 6:25 AM, Bosco685 said:

"Real people" reviews on Facebook and even on here, are not reflecting this.  

And the metacritic user rating definitely is not.  

And so far, neither is the box office.  

We'll see....

-J.

[ianh]

I didn't care for BP1 and the fact it is the highest rated Marvel movie on RT from the critics is still laughable to me. It wasn't even in my top 20 Marvel movies and I loved all the BP characters in Civil War and Avengers movies. I would agree killing and not just replacing T'Challa is a mistake and yet another white superhero changed to a person of color and rewritten backstory just to appease the woke agenda. I'm pretty fed up with Marvel at this point. You don't have to poopoo on one culture and gender just to prop up another one. 

Hard pass for me on this one.

 

Edited November 12, 2022 by ianh

[Straw-Man]

would no doubt be 200+ w/o the culture and gender poo-pooing it has committed.  
 

 

Edited November 12, 2022 by Straw-Man

[Bosco685]

Uncertifiably posted

[@therealsilvermane]

On 11/12/2022 at 12:52 PM, ianh said:

I didn't care for BP1 and the fact it is the highest rated Marvel movie on RT from the critics is still laughable to me. It wasn't even in my top 20 Marvel movies and I loved all the BP characters in Civil War and Avengers movies. I would agree killing and not just replacing T'Challa is a mistake and yet another white superhero changed to a person of color and rewritten backstory just to appease the woke agenda. I'm pretty fed up with Marvel at this point. You don't have to poopoo on one culture and gender just to prop up another one. 

Hard pass for me on this one.

 

 

[D84]

On 11/12/2022 at 12:04 PM, Bosco685 said:

Uncertifiably posted

I'm certifiable... Wait, what are we talking about?

[Bosco685]

On 11/12/2022 at 1:53 PM, D84 said:

I'm certifiable... Wait, what are we talking about?

Heck if I know.

[Zonker]

On 11/12/2022 at 12:52 PM, ianh said:

yet another white superhero changed to a person of color and rewritten backstory just to appease the woke agenda.

 

Talking about Namor?  He's not even really homosapiens is he?  Not sure it makes sense to think of him as "white" or any other actual ethnic group when he's not even human.  Is Mr. Spock also "white?" 

Edited November 12, 2022 by Zonker

[fastballspecial]

So no spoilers, but Marvel did a great job.

Great send off for Chadwick Boseman. Had me in tears. Marvel has balls I gotta tell the risk they took with Namor
was great and they pulled it off well. He is identified as a mutant as well. His famous phrases are there as well
as a few nod to Marvel History. They did him well I think even with the origin changes which they did go pretty far
in depth with all give them that.

This film is long like 2 hours + long. There is alot of exposition and some good development of some characters. 
I was happy to see Attuma and Namora in this. (Right it wasnt Namorita right?) Though not really developed much
they did get decent screen time. Any worries that it didnt do Black Panther Justice I think are put to bed. 

Riri Williams I think had a decent introduction. She didnt knock it out of the park, but it was a decent introduction. 
I could easily see her in Young Avengers as well. 

Overall I would to have seen a little more of Alantis(Takalon I think.), but it was introduced and it was just one 
city. Good Job of a follow up movie for Marvel. I would say 8.5 out of 10 or so. I really dont have many complaints
just some minor stuff that adds up.

Marvel continues to kill DC in movies. Black Adam while a decent film just doesn't compare. 

 

 

Edited November 12, 2022 by fastballspecial

[Straw-Man]

liked it very much.   prefer it to bp1.   namor won me over.   

[Bosco685]

On 11/12/2022 at 4:44 PM, Zonker said:

Talking about Namor?  He's not even really homosapiens is he?  Not sure it makes sense to think of him as "white" or any other actual ethnic group when he's not even human.  Is Mr. Spock also "white?" 

Although I agree making race or gender a concern can lead to trouble.

But with Namor (backwards for 'Roman'), the history of Atlantis used in the comic lore hints to an island offshoot of Greece or within the vicinity in the Mediterranean Sea. He also started out as a hybrid son of a human and princess of Atlantis. Which is why the Aquaman comparison in live film would be too similar. Though I remember reading one of those 70's Son of Origin or something like that where they moved his home closer to ice caps (which was interesting).

Found a reasonable video on Namor's origin that some may find helpful.

 

Edited November 13, 2022 by Bosco685