BLACK PANTHER 2 directed by Ryan Coogler (TBD) 8 8

[Bosco685]

On 11/24/2022 at 6:22 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

Leonard McKenzie...a true Marvel Comics legend...Namor just wouldn't be Namor without him...

Thanks for correcting the name you misquoted. I was wondering where you were going with that.

[@therealsilvermane]

On 11/25/2022 at 6:06 AM, Bosco685 said:

Thanks for correcting the name you misquoted. I was wondering where you were going with that.

When I think Scottish American, my mind immediately goes to miracle working Enterprise engineer Mr Scott “Scottie”.

[@therealsilvermane]

On 11/24/2022 at 7:44 PM, drotto said:

The wet stereotype is consider offensive by some, and you have made it a repeated point to call people out when they come even remotely close to crossing any line, whether real, implied, or recently created.  You also have a long history of proclaiming you expertise on subjects similar to this. So now when Marvel does something that some could consider offensive even if it is a small group, you run to their defense. You can not have it both ways. To compound the issue, they make the way to defeat him literally drying him out, so it is easy to read the negative implications into the imagery.

 

I did not pick up on this personally, and I kind of doubt it was intentional, but I have seen many people calling it out.  I am also not personally offended. I have, however, discussed it with a few close friends and family members, and they knew exactly what the what term was and what it implied.  So there is a fairly wide perception that the term could be considered offensive.  

Yes, if used in a certain context, the term can be used by some people to try to demean and belittle other people. But again, the term has also been “embraced” as a word that self-describes the hardships and experience of people who cross the border to try to find a better life. Guatemalan recording artist Ricardo Arjona and Tejano band Intocable even released a 2012 immigrant song “Mojado” about the struggles of the undocumented southern immigrant. Funny, the chorus lyrics say “Why do they need visas to prove he’s not from Neptune?”

 

Edited November 25, 2022 by @therealsilvermane

[@therealsilvermane]

Here is what a Mexican-American journalist thought of Namor and Talocan after seeing Wakanda Forever.

https://www.inquirer.com/opinion/commentary/black-panther-namor-tenoch-huerta-latino-representation-20221115.html

[Mmanick]

On 11/25/2022 at 5:22 AM, @therealsilvermane said:

Yes, if used in a certain context, the term can be used by some people to try to demean and belittle other people. But again, the term has also been “embraced” as a word that self-describes the hardships and experience of people who cross the border to try to find a better life. Guatemalan recording artist Ricardo Arjona and Tejano band Intocable even released a 2012 immigrant song “Mojado” about the struggles of the undocumented southern immigrant. Funny, the chorus lyrics say “Why do they need visas to prove he’s not from Neptune?”

 

Mojado isn't a nice word to describe someone. I AM Chicano AKA Mexican American and would be pretty PO if someone called me that.

[Mmanick]

On 11/25/2022 at 5:55 AM, @therealsilvermane said:

Here is what a Mexican-American journalist thought of Namor and Talocan after seeing Wakanda Forever.

https://www.inquirer.com/opinion/commentary/black-panther-namor-tenoch-huerta-latino-representation-20221115.html

I haven't seen the movie so I'm going to reserve judgement about how Namor was portrayed but initially I didn't care for it because it seemed forced. The character I thought that could have been used more was Robbie Reyes the ghost rider. He was the only reason I even watched agents of shield. 

[MR SigS]

On 11/24/2022 at 6:15 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

This weakness is from the comics, though handled inconsistently throughout Namor's stories.

I don't recall any stories about weakening him by specifically focusing on drying his back, but I haven't read them all. 

 

[@therealsilvermane]

On 11/25/2022 at 12:57 PM, MR SigS said:

I don't recall any stories about weakening him by specifically focusing on drying his back, but I haven't read them all. 

 

SPOILER ALERT:

In Wakanda Forever, Shuri figures out that Namor must also be able to breathe through his skin when it's wet, which boosts his strength. She theorizes if they can trap Namor and dry out his skin entirely, they can thus weaken him and stand a better chance of defeating him. The specific "back" thing must be something you picked up because of all the talk of slurs and stuff from the past few posts. I guess you haven't seen the movie yet.

[@therealsilvermane]

On 11/25/2022 at 12:39 PM, Mmanick said:

Mojado isn't a nice word to describe someone. I AM Chicano AKA Mexican American and would be pretty PO if someone called me that.

Well, I also assume you're born and raised in the USA and that the struggles of the undocumented Central American immigrant don't apply to your personal experience, so I can imagine you'd be doubly PO'd if some redneck called you that. I don't think anybody likes to be called a generalized nickname. We all prefer to be called by our actual names.

But sometimes, if a negative generalization exists, the targeted folks can also reclaim that word so it becomes less hurtful when used in the right context. Black Americans have done that with the N word. In the Asian-American community, the term Fresh Off the Boat was a slang used to describe Asian immigrants newly arrived to America. Now, that term has been reclaimed by some  in the community as a term of endearment, especially when referring to themselves.

To turn it back to Namor and Wakanda Forever, the fact that Namor lives underwater and that it should be offensive to Latinos, Latinas, LatinX specifically because of the "w--back" slur is kind of ludicrous IMO.

Edited November 25, 2022 by @therealsilvermane

[PopKulture]

On 11/25/2022 at 1:25 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

Well, I also assume you're born and raised in the USA and that the struggles of the undocumented Central American immigrant don't apply to your personal experience, so I can imagine you'd be doubly PO'd if some redneck called you that. I don't think anybody likes to be called a generalized nickname.

And then, in a mind-numbingly perfect example of hypocrisy, you use a slur yourself: redneck. 
 
I’m going to file this away in my “You can’t make this stuff up” folder. 

[@therealsilvermane]

On 11/25/2022 at 1:36 PM, PopKulture said:

And then, in a mind-numbingly perfect example of hypocrisy, you use a slur yourself: redneck. 
 
I’m going to file this away in my “You can’t make this stuff up” folder. 

 

[Jaydogrules]

On 11/25/2022 at 10:05 AM, @therealsilvermane said:

SPOILER ALERT:

In Wakanda Forever, Shuri figures out that Namor must also be able to breathe through his skin when it's wet, which boosts his strength. She theorizes if they can trap Namor and dry out his skin entirely, they can thus weaken him and stand a better chance of defeating him. The specific "back" thing must be something you picked up because of all the talk of slurs and stuff from the past few posts. I guess you haven't seen the movie yet.

This short summary is a perfect example of how "mind numbingly" stupid this movie was.   Well made, yes, big budget, yes, schlock, yes .   

-J. 

Edited November 25, 2022 by Jaydogrules

[Mmanick]

On 11/25/2022 at 10:25 AM, @therealsilvermane said:

Well, I also assume you're born and raised in the USA and that the struggles of the undocumented Central American immigrant don't apply to your personal experience, so I can imagine you'd be doubly PO'd if some redneck called you that. I don't think anybody likes to be called a generalized nickname. We all prefer to be called by our actual names.

But sometimes, if a negative generalization exists, the targeted folks can also reclaim that word so it becomes less hurtful when used in the right context. Black Americans have done that with the N word. In the Asian-American community, the term Fresh Off the Boat was a slang used to describe Asian immigrants newly arrived to America. Now, that term has been reclaimed by some  in the community as a term of endearment, especially when referring to themselves.

To turn it back to Namor and Wakanda Forever, to tie the fact that Namor lives underwater and that it should be offensive to Latinos, Latinas, LatinX because of the "w--back" slur is kind of ludicrous IMO.

You definitely shouldn't assume things and I'll leave it at that. 

[Bosco685]

And there was a concern with the Black Adam thread??

I feel like I am in the Water Cooler reading this discussion.

[N e r V]

My goodness why does a objection to the major changes to the characters identity somehow automatically make you anti Mayan? It’s a dead civilization who’s decedents have as much in common with them as Italians do to Romans. I find Mayan culture fascinating and was a great study for me in college as was Roman, Egyptian and any other multitude of ancient civilizations but that’s not the point. I wanted to see Sub-Mariner closely to what he was in the comics and if they made his backstory as some white dude from the south I’d hold the same objections to the changes. If you want to make major changes to a character then create a new character. It’s been done a million times in comics with Superman giving us Supergirl or the original Spider-Man giving us the Miles Morales version. But if I pay to see Tarzan in a movie I except to see a somewhat close version and not some Hollywood hack giving his powers to Jane and trying to convince me it’s basically the same when it’s clearly not. It doesn’t mean I dislike Jane but find the experience a deal breaker for him. Not all of us are on the same page but with Disney in the future I’m voting with my wallet going forward.

[@therealsilvermane]

On 11/25/2022 at 1:53 PM, Jaydogrules said:

On 11/25/2022 at 1:05 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

In Wakanda Forever, Shuri figures out that Namor must also be able to breathe through his skin when it's wet, which boosts his strength. She theorizes if they can trap Namor and dry out his skin entirely, they can thus weaken him and stand a better chance of defeating him. The specific "back" thing must be something you picked up because of all the talk of slurs and stuff from the past few posts. I guess you haven't seen the movie yet.

This short summary is a perfect example of how "mind numbingly" stupid this movie was.   Well made, yes, big budget, yes, schlock, yes . 

How is this mind numbingly stupid? First, it's been stated throughout the Sub-Mariner's Golden Age, Silver Age, etc. comics stories that water not only gives him life and strength, but that prolonged absence from water weakens him. Second, it's a comic book movie. How is that anymore stupid than when Bruce Banner gets mad or night falls he turns into a green giant quadruple the size and with infinite strength?

Edited November 25, 2022 by @therealsilvermane

[MR SigS]

On 11/25/2022 at 10:05 AM, @therealsilvermane said:

I guess you haven't seen the movie yet.

Correct. I've read and heard comments stating it was his back they were focusing on when doing whatever they did to dry him out. If it was not his back they targeted, but some other body part, then I stand corrected. 

Was it his back, or elsewhere?

On 11/25/2022 at 10:25 AM, @therealsilvermane said:

... the fact that Namor lives underwater and that it should be offensive to Latinos, Latinas, LatinX specifically because of the "w--back" slur is kind of ludicrous IMO.

Emerging from a river to breach the wall of a country meant to keep outsiders from entering, then having their back dried off (if that is what they did), sounds like a stereotype IMO. It feels right up there with the pair of shoes dangling from a Harlem power line in "What If Miles Morales was Thor?"

[@therealsilvermane]

On 11/25/2022 at 3:01 PM, MR SigS said:

Correct. I've read and heard comments stating it was his back they were focusing on when doing whatever they did to dry him out. If it was not his back they targeted, but some other body part, then I stand corrected. 

Was it his back, or elsewhere?

Emerging from a river to breach the wall of a country meant to keep outsiders from entering, then having their back dried off (if that is what they did), sounds like a stereotype IMO. It feels right up there with the pair of shoes dangling from a Harlem power line in "What If Miles Morales was Thor?"

Never in the film does Shuri or anyone else say they need to specifically dry off Namor's back. Shuri does make the plan to completely dry out his skin on every part of his body (after she theorizes that he gets his strength from water on his skin) so that she can weaken him to defeat him in non-ritual combat.

Underwater river ops is a time honored way of breaching an enemy's defenses undetected. That's how bull sharks do it. That's how the US Navy Seals do it. And it's worked out pretty well so far.

[@therealsilvermane]

On 11/25/2022 at 2:41 PM, N e r V said:

My goodness why does a objection to the major changes to the characters identity somehow automatically make you anti Mayan? It’s a dead civilization who’s decedents have as much in common with them as Italians do to Romans. I find Mayan culture fascinating and was a great study for me in college as was Roman, Egyptian and any other multitude of ancient civilizations but that’s not the point. I wanted to see Sub-Mariner closely to what he was in the comics and if they made his backstory as some white dude from the south I’d hold the same objections to the changes. If you want to make major changes to a character then create a new character. It’s been done a million times in comics with Superman giving us Supergirl or the original Spider-Man giving us the Miles Morales version. But if I pay to see Tarzan in a movie I except to see a somewhat close version and not some Hollywood hack giving his powers to Jane and trying to convince me it’s basically the same when it’s clearly not. It doesn’t mean I dislike Jane but find the experience a deal breaker for him. Not all of us are on the same page but with Disney in the future I’m voting with my wallet going forward.

I'm a lifelong Sub-Mariner fan, and I simply don't think changing the location and origin of Namor's kingdom is that big of a deal and warrants a completely new and different character. The specific history details of Namor's home have never really been that big of a deal in the comics. They're underwater warriors and they're blue, that's what's important. What's important for Namor is that he's a mutant with specific physical traits and that he had a deep hatred for the surface world in his earlier years. That's all present in Wakanda Forever.

[MR SigS]

On 11/25/2022 at 12:16 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

Never in the film does Shuri or anyone else say they need to specifically dry off Namor's back. Shuri does make the plan to completely dry out his skin on every part of his body (after she theorizes that he gets his strength from water on his skin) so that she can weaken him to defeat him in non-ritual combat.

I never claimed she or anyone else said anything. I asked which body part they targeted when they did whatever they did.