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BLACK PANTHER 2 directed by Ryan Coogler (TBD)
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Started by Bosco685,

829 posts in this topic

@therealsilvermane

@therealsilvermane

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 11/22/2022 at 10:29 PM, N e r V said:

being a really big Sub-Mariner fan the character in BP 2 only resembles him in name

Dude, the character in Wakanda Forever is: 1) a mutant with pointy ears and wings on his feet that allow him to fly, 2) king of an underwater kingdom who hates the surface world, 3) has super-strength and the ability to breathe in water and out. Sounds a lot like the guy from the comics.

THE ONLY DIFFERENCE between the MCU Namor and comics Namor is that Marvel Comics Namor has a Latin background whereas MCU Namor has a Latino background (and the name of their kingdom). Myself being a big Sub-Mariner fan, I feel Marvel Studios nailed the essence of the character, especially from the Silver Age comics when he hated the surface world.

Edited by @therealsilvermane
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N e r V

N e r V

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Posted
On 11/23/2022 at 4:44 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

Dude, the character in Wakanda Forever is: 1) a mutant with pointy ears and wings on his feet that allow him to fly, 2) king of an underwater kingdom who hates the surface world, 3) has super-strength and the ability to breathe in water and out. Sounds a lot like the guy from the comics.

THE ONLY DIFFERENCE between the MCU Namor and comics Namor is that Marvel Comics Namor has a Latin background whereas MCU Namor has a Latino background (and the name of their kingdom). Myself being a big Sub-Mariner fan, I feel Marvel Studios nailed the essence of the character, especially from the Silver Age comics when he hated the surface world.

Glad you enjoyed it but I was just expressing my opinion on it like you just did. Yes they both had 2 arms and 2 legs too but if the character looks absolutely nothing like the original Namor with the exception of elf ears as you “pointed” out and the back story is completely different  other than loose themes I just found him to be more like a new character who swiped some elements from the Sub-Mariner. So no I don’t see him as Namor but some new weird version of a very old Marvel character. As to the movie itself not having Black Panther in a Black Panther movie was already a bit weird going in. Side characters ruled this one which I found boring. The first movie was probably a 8 or 9 for me. This felt like a 3 or 4. Lots of money on pretty CGI but off putting changes in a mediocre plot. But again, just my opinion and for anyone that actually enjoyed it I say good for you.

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TupennyConan

TupennyConan

Posted
Posted
On 11/23/2022 at 7:44 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

Dude, the character in Wakanda Forever is: 1) a mutant with pointy ears and wings on his feet that allow him to fly, 2) king of an underwater kingdom who hates the surface world, 3) has super-strength and the ability to breathe in water and out. Sounds a lot like the guy from the comics.

THE ONLY DIFFERENCE between the MCU Namor and comics Namor is that Marvel Comics Namor has a Latin background whereas MCU Namor has a Latino background (and the name of their kingdom). Myself being a big Sub-Mariner fan, I feel Marvel Studios nailed the essence of the character, especially from the Silver Age comics when he hated the surface world.

Is there anyone from the Wakandan kingdom who hates the underwater kingdom? Any surface world kings involved in this inter-kingdom hate fest?  

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Ken Aldred

Ken Aldred

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On 11/24/2022 at 12:44 AM, @therealsilvermane said:

Marvel Comics Namor has a Latin background

Always thought he was Scottish-American.

Namor McKenzie

 

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drotto

drotto

Posted
Posted
On 11/23/2022 at 8:48 PM, N e r V said:

Glad you enjoyed it but I was just expressing my opinion on it like you just did. Yes they both had 2 arms and 2 legs too but if the character looks absolutely nothing like the original Namor with the exception of elf ears as you “pointed” out and the back story is completely different  other than loose themes I just found him to be more like a new character who swiped some elements from the Sub-Mariner. So no I don’t see him as Namor but some new weird version of a very old Marvel character. As to the movie itself not having Black Panther in a Black Panther movie was already a bit weird going in. Side characters ruled this one which I found boring. The first movie was probably a 8 or 9 for me. This felt like a 3 or 4. Lots of money on pretty CGI but off putting changes in a mediocre plot. But again, just my opinion and for anyone that actually enjoyed it I say good for you.

Remember it's Na'more not Namor you heathen.  :p

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MR SigS

MR SigS

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On 11/23/2022 at 4:44 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

MCU Namor has a Latino background

I hear that in the film he's seen emerging from a river before attempting to breach the wall of the greatest nation in the (MCU) world.

:eyeroll: 

Disney loves those cultural stereotypes.

AB4tTap.jpg

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drotto

drotto

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On 11/24/2022 at 2:23 PM, MR SigS said:

I hear that in the film he's seen emerging from a river before attempting to breach the wall of the greatest nation in the (MCU) world.

:eyeroll: 

Disney loves those cultural stereotypes.

AB4tTap.jpg

And you dry his back off to defeat him. I will put the term in spoilers, if some find it offensive. 

Spoiler

It is the wetback stereotype. For those who do not know what that is, it is a slur for people crossing the southern US boarder by river. 

Sometimes I really wonder if they realize what they are doing, after so much signaling in general.

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@therealsilvermane

@therealsilvermane

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Posted
On 11/24/2022 at 2:23 PM, MR SigS said:

I hear that in the film he's seen emerging from a river before attempting to breach the wall of the greatest nation in the (MCU) world.

:eyeroll: 

Disney loves those cultural stereotypes.

It's not really a cultural stereotype for actual immigrants from Mexico and Central/South America who have crossed the Rio Grande into Texas, as much as it's considered a shared actual experience for those ancestors and the people who still do it today. In fact, the term that Hispanic-Americans use to describe those who entered the United States by the river is "mojado", meaning wet, and is not considered offensive if used in the right context. For more history trivia, the fed gov in the 1950's coined its anti-immigrant deportation activity Operation W---ack. Heck, maybe Namor and the Talocans being people who have taken to the water to escape persecution might endear them even more to Hispanic Americans.

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drotto

drotto

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On 11/24/2022 at 7:11 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

It's not really a cultural stereotype for actual immigrants from Mexico and Central/South America who have crossed the Rio Grande into Texas, as much as it's considered a shared actual experience for those ancestors and the people who still do it today. In fact, the term that Hispanic-Americans use to describe those who entered the United States by the river is "mojado", meaning wet, and is not considered offensive if used in the right context. For more history trivia, the fed gov in the 1950's coined its anti-immigrant deportation activity Operation W---ack. Heck, maybe Namor and the Talocans being people who have taken to the water to escape persecution might endear them even more to Hispanic Americans.

The wet stereotype is consider offensive by some, and you have made it a repeated point to call people out when they come even remotely close to crossing any line, whether real, implied, or recently created.  You also have a long history of proclaiming you expertise on subjects similar to this. So now when Marvel does something that some could consider offensive even if it is a small group, you run to their defense. You can not have it both ways. To compound the issue, they make the way to defeat him literally drying him out, so it is easy to read the negative implications into the imagery.

 

I did not pick up on this personally, and I kind of doubt it was intentional, but I have seen many people calling it out.  I am also not personally offended. I have, however, discussed it with a few close friends and family members, and they knew exactly what the what term was and what it implied.  So there is a fairly wide perception that the term could be considered offensive.  

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@therealsilvermane

@therealsilvermane

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 11/24/2022 at 7:44 PM, drotto said:

The wet stereotype is consider offensive by some, and you have made it a repeated point to call people out when they come even remotely close to crossing any line, whether real, implied, or recently created.  You also have a long history of proclaiming you expertise on subjects similar to this. So now when Marvel does something that some could consider offensive even if it is a small group, you run to their defense. You can not have it both ways. To compound the issue, they make the way to defeat him literally drying him out, so it is easy to read the negative implications into the imagery.

 

I did not pick up on this personally, and I kind of doubt it was intentional, but I have seen many people calling it out.  I am also not personally offended. I have, however, discussed it with a few close friends and family members, and they knew exactly what the what term was and what it implied.  So there is a fairly wide perception that the term could be considered offensive.  

So in your world, the way it should have gone at the Marvel Studios creative table is "Okay, someone just brought up that because Namor lives in the water and is therefore wet, there's no way we can make him of Mayan(Mexican) descent because of the connection to that "w--back" slur, so we'd better just ditch the whole Mayan Talocan thing. Let's just go back to the Leonard MacKenzie Atlantis thing which makes way more sense and is a little more realistic. It worked for Aquaman and it'll work for us. Sorry, Hispanic Americans!" xD

Edited by @therealsilvermane
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drotto

drotto

Posted
Posted
On 11/24/2022 at 8:55 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

So in your world, the way it should have gone at the Marvel Studios creative table is "Okay, someone just brought up that because Namor lives in the water and is therefore wet, there's no way we can make him of Mayan(Mexican) descent because of the connection to that "w--back" slur, so we'd better just ditch the whole Mayan Talocan thing. Let's just go back to the Scott McKenzie Greek myth Atlantis thing which makes way more sense and is a little more realistic. Sorry, Hispanic Americans. Hey, at least you have America Chavez!" LOL

Not saying that, and if you read my post, I do not think the writers really intended or even realized they had tapped into a stereotype, but multiple people have pointed out that they have. I do also feel, like others, that there is very little left of the original character. This is not Namor from the comics, they have maybe 20% in common. But, I am saying that you have been very vocal when it comes to stereotyping and representation in the MCU as a whole, and how fans have responded to that. I wonder why you chose to deflect that some of the items brough up about BP2 can be viewed in that fashion.

 

I actually think the changes can be viewed from a very cynical point of view. By changing a character to the degree that was done, this is a blatant attempt at pandering to a specific demographic, rather than honoring it.  It tapes into many different stereotypes, and shows a superficial understanding of Latina American history, of which I am NOT an expert.  It you want to dig even a slight bit deeper lets look at how vibranium has acted as far as how these two cultures have evolved. Wakanda has evolved into an advanced and powerful nation, arguably the pinnacle of the modern MCU, because of the unique resource. The Telocan's are a culture stuck in time and seemingly have not advanced significantly culturally and technologically in hundreds of years. In theory, vibranium should have offered them similar advantages, so why did they never develop? If vibranium is such a game changer, the arc of their civilization makes no sense. Again, I do not think this was intended, but it can still be viewed that way.

 

What I am regretfully saying, is that much of modern entertainment is making me very cynical. While I respect and encourage increased diversity and viewpoints in entertainment, I have come to view companies like Disney as claiming they care about these things, but ultimately they are just pursing what they perceive as untapped markets. It is just another marketing tool, it is not authentic, and there is nothing altruistic or even progressive about it.   

 

BP was a great movie. BP2 was fine nothing more.  BP I felt truly brough a new, powerful, and important facet to the MCU, that truly added to the texture, story, and quality of the MCU. While I like the respect that was shown for Chadwick Boseman in BP2, the remainder of the film felt very predictable and by the current MCU book. 

 

Just as an aside, America Chavez was another Hispanic character who's ability was to illegally chose boarders.  Am I seeing a trend here? 

 

Do better Disney. 

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