Prez nominated for probation
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86 posts in this topic

This is the first time I have nominated someone for probation.  I have reviewed the guidelines and rules very carefully and on multiple occasions, but I apologize up front if I have done this incorrectly or for some other misstep.

I am nominating Prez for probation, here goes:

On March 9, 2018, I posted an :takeit: in Prez's thread for a copy of Marvel Preview #8 in Near Mint condition, listed here:

On March 13, 2018, Prez requested payment for the book. I live in the US, Prez lives in Canada, but stated he would mail the book to me by coming down to the United States and mailing the book via USPS Priority Mail service.  Between March 16, 2018, and March 22, 2018, Prez and I went back and forth regarding issues related to shipping.  On March 22, 2018, Prez demanded payment or threatened to nominate me for probation.  Although I knew that the nomination guidelines did not permit him to nominate me at that time (30 day rule applied as transaction was still valid), on March 23, 2018, I paid Prez the full amount for the book and shipping, which he accepted.

On April 2, 2018, and April 3, 2018, I sent PMs to Prez stating I had not received the book, and asked him when he mailed the book, and to forward all tracking and shipping information to me.  I did not receive any response. On April 4, 2018, I sent a PM to Prez stating I had not received the book, and asked him when he mailed the book, and to forward all tracking and shipping information to me. He responded:  “I have sent all the packages and everyone but you got their stuff.  Its really odd.  If you don’t receive it in the next few days, just claim it via Paypal protection.”  On April 4, 2018, I again asked Prez when he mailed the book, and to forward all tracking and shipping information to me.  He replied that he had crossed the border to drop off the package, and that he could not find the receipt, and requested I give it a day or two, and then to contact Paypal for a refund.

On April 9, 2018, Prez sent a PM inquiring if I had received the book. I responded on April 10, 2018, asking if he had found the receipt, and again requested from him the date of shipping, and the tracking number for the package.  On the same day, Prez responded that he could not find the receipt, and stated that he would refund my money, and then stated:  “I trust you will let me know when the book arrives.”  

Later in the day on April 10, 2018, I received a paypal refund for my payment for the book.  Following the receipt of the paypal refund, I sent Prez a PM on the same date, stating that the transaction remained uncompleted, again requested the tracking and shipping information, the date he mailed the package, and the location of the USPS facility he mailed the package from.  On April 10, 2018, in response to my request, Prez sent me a PM and instructed me to resend my paypal payment “and will do the leg work to finding your receipt.”  

Following that PM, on April 10, 2018, Prez sent me a PM stating that due to the fact that his “time is of value,” he would charge me a rate of $50.00 an hour to look for the mailing receipt he had previously stated was lost.  That same day I responded by PM questioning why he required me to resend my paypal payment, and why I should have to pay him $50 an hour for information related to the shipping and tracking of the book I had already purchased, and he had already stated that he had mailed, and I subsequently again requested that he deliver to me the tracking and shipping information, the date he mailed the package, and the location of the USPS facility he mailed the package from, and further stated that all I could do at this point was wait for the book to arrive.  That same day, Prez sent me a PM stating that the book could arrive the next day, next month, next year, etc., and instructed me to launch a complaint against the United States Postal Service, and informed me that he was “billing me” for 3 minutes of his time to read and respond to my last PM, presumably at the $50.00 an hour rate he had previously quoted me.   

On April 14, 2018, I sent Prez a PM and requested the tracking and shipping information for the book he mailed, the date he mailed the package, and the location of the USPS facility he mailed the package from.  I have received no response to the said April 14, 2018, PM to Prez.

 

The basis for the nomination is two-fold: 

First, Prez and I have an enforceable contract – Prez made an offer to sell the book, I accepted and gave consideration (payment).  The fact that he sent me a paypal refund does not void the contract, and as such, the transaction remains uncompleted.  In the meantime, I have searched ebay, MCS, and other sites looking for the same book (Marvel Preview #8 in Near Mint condition) in comparable condition and price, and there is nothing available that I could take my refund and simply purchase from someone else.  On top of that, the book I bought and paid for has a really cool date stamp in a real vibrant blue color in what I think is the perfect position on the front cover, which is something I am really into, just as people are into pedigree books or books with double covers.  This deprives me of the benefit of the transaction, and puts me in a position that I have to pay more for the same book I have already paid for, because Prez did not honor his part of this contract.

Of course, this could all be solvable if: 1) the book appeared in the mail, or 2) Prez could give me the information I need to track the book, so I can figure out if I have a chance of receiving what I paid for, or just move on.  In plain terms, I don’t think Prez ever mailed the Marvel Preview 8 NM to me in the first place.  I think he either sold it on another forum or venue, for more money, or had seller's remorse and won't sell it, at least not at the price I paid for it.  If he did, why would he simply refund my payment without waiting to see if the book arrived to me?  Furthermore, despite my seven total requests, to this day, he has refused to send me any shipping and tracking information related to the mailing of the package to me, and refuses to tell me the date that he mailed the package, or reveal the location of the post office he mailed the package from.

Second, and frankly, this is what really got in my crawl, on April 10, 2018, Prez demanded that I resend him my paypal payment, which he was going to use to pay him for his time to look for the shipping and tracking receipt for my package, meaning that the original payment I sent was now being sent not under the premise of payment for a comic book, but was to pay him for some sort of service he felt that he was entitled to, despite my numerous requests, and at a rate of $50.00 an hour, to provide me something that was essential to discovering where exactly this comic book was in the shipping process.  Of course, this $50/hour information seach/retrieval fee is not listed in the “rules” section of Prez’s sales thread, he made up this fee to deter me from trying to complete this transaction.

My take on the general purpose of the probation/nomination process is the help buyers and sellers complete transactions.  Prez should be on probation in these forums because what he decided was the right thing to do with our transaction is to extort money from me in exchange for information regarding the shipping and tracking of a package he allegedly mailed to me, but in the end refuses to provide me the information, which prohibits me from finding my comic book.  The fact that he suggested I file a complaint or claim with the United States Postal Service that would effectively amount to a false filing due to the fact that he either never sent the book, and/or wont provide me with the information to actually file a valid claim shows the egregiousness of his actions.

I very much appreciate everyone reading this, I know its long, but it is worth it to me to organize and write it, if it stops someone like Prez from doing this to someone else.  I have a complete screenshot copy of the entire PM conversation regarding this transaction that I will post with a "reveal" code to support this nomination.

 

Edit: Per the probation guidelines, I sent Prez a PM advising him I had nominated him for probation at 2:20 p.m. on 4/27/2018, prior to starting this thread.

Edited by bluehorseshoe
Added notice of thread via PM to Prez
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Here is a complete screenshot copy of the entire PM regarding this transaction above:

Spoiler

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Edited by bluehorseshoe
repair links to PM conversation
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On The Same Thread I Was the I'll Take it winner of 3 Comics.  I contacted him Right away after he Responded with the WINNAH Emote.  I asked for Payment information and was Never Responded to.  I Send several PMs and Still No Response.  I concur with bluehorseshoe that Prez isat Best Unreliable and Not honest.  Here are my Screen Shots.  

On 4/2/2018 at 2:11 PM, Jaydee said:

Whenever you want I can send payment

 

On 4/13/2018 at 1:33 PM, Jaydee said:

Whenever you want I can send payment

 

On 4/20/2018 at 8:13 AM, Jaydee said:

Whenever you want I can send payment Please Id Like to CLose this.  

 

On 3/29/2018 at 11:36 AM, Jaydee said:

:takeit:

For $28?

 

On 3/29/2018 at 12:29 PM, Jaydee said:

IG Scottie For $4?:takeit:

 

On 3/29/2018 at 9:51 PM, prez said:

 

^^ A+ in Math

 

On 4/20/2018 at 8:03 AM, Jaydee said:

Any Updates?

 

On 4/26/2018 at 8:07 AM, Jaydee said:

Awating Payment information it has been a Month?

 

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i'm not too familiar with the probation rules/guidelines, but once you received the PayPal refund on April 10th, wouldn't that have made you whole?

Quote

The fact that he sent me a paypal refund does not void the contract, and as such, the transaction remains uncompleted.

I don't get this, as soon as you get your money back, he is no longer obligated to give you anything at that point since it is as though the transaction never occurred in the first place.

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13 minutes ago, wombat said:

The whole thing seems crappy, but I would think once you got your payments back that would be the end of it. 

That is my first instinct also, if I understand the narrative, the buyer (bluehorseshoe) did at some point receive a full refund. I understand the frustration of losing out on a book that was in a sense unique and not easily replaced, but that is not technically speaking the seller's problem, once the money was refunded the matter should have been closed. 

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2 minutes ago, Iceman399 said:

Not if the buyer can't buy the book at the same price as they attempted to on March 9th they wouldn't be whole. 2c 

Why would the seller be responsible for more than the originally transacted price? 

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5 minutes ago, crassus said:
9 minutes ago, Iceman399 said:

Not if the buyer can't buy the book at the same price as they attempted to on March 9th they wouldn't be whole. 2c 

Why would the seller be responsible for more than the originally transacted price? 

because the buyer is not in the same position that he otherwise would have been had the seller performed the contract. 

For example:  If you own a restaurant, and you prepay for vegetables, the vendor shouldn't be able to show up two days after the veggies were supposed to be delivered and hand you your money back and say, "Sorry bro".  You might have had to pay more to buy veggies at Whole Foods instead.  The seller should not only refund your money, but the difference (if you can show evidence of it) between the original cost of the groceries and the cost of the groceries bought at Whole Foods, and potentially the wages paid to the worker who had to go shopping (and gas, etc), and if quantifiable any business lost.  Its not often pushed for here on the boards, but in most cases that is how contracts are understood (unless remedies are otherwise stated).  Whether its worth enforcing is another issue.

 

I think customarily here on the boards, usually if the person gets refund, usually we don't go probation because we're getting into technical legal remedies.  And in this case, I would tend to agree with that as well, unless the buyer can show they've actually paid for a more expensive copy, though I can see why they wouldn't (buy a more expensive one), without any assurance that they'd get paid by the original seller.  But in this case, I think behavior the behavior of the seller hits enough factors to be grounds for the Hall of Shame.

1.  Multiple Occasions - Two buyers have had complaints about non-completion.

2.  Dishonesty - Repeatedly not providing requested information about shipping info, to the point where dishonesty has to be assumed.

3.  Bad/lack of Communication - The second complainant was simply ignored after posting a good faith purchase in a public thread.

4.  Knowledge of the existence of the Probation List - The seller even threatened using it, knowing that there was this mechanism of PL/HOS is in existence, making his violation of the contract even more egregious.

5.  Other ridiculous/aggressive/disturbing actions - The notion of even charging $50/hr to find shipping information or respond to messages is ludicrous and unconscionable.  Asking for repayment after a refund has occurred? WTF?  Suggesting that the buyer go to the USPS for more info when ZERO shipping info was provided?

 

I would opine that there is simply no value to having a person like this selling/buying on the boards at all.  I vote no on PL, yes on HOS.  If the buyer goes over and above to make all of this right in BOTH cases he can try and make a case to be removed from the HOS.

 

 

Side note:  While we're talking HOS, we should probably throw ComicXposure on the HOS, even though they're not a member of the boards.  They've just ripped off sooooo many boardies.  I don't think it hurts the boards at all but could save a few folks from getting ripped off.

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3 hours ago, bluehorseshoe said:

he would charge me a rate of $50.00 an hour to look for the mailing receipt he had previously stated was lost.

 informed me that he was “billing me” for 3 minutes of his time to read and respond to my last PM, presumably at the $50.00 an hour rate he had previously quoted me. 

Sorry for the mess - I have never dealt with Prez but seems like a hoser.  The comments above by him are pure wussiness but I have to admit, it made me chuckle that someone would actually "threaten" this.  He thinks highly of his time evidently and even though I am retired, I'd take that job paying $50/hr :p

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1 hour ago, revat said:
1 hour ago, crassus said:
1 hour ago, Iceman399 said:

Not if the buyer can't buy the book at the same price as they attempted to on March 9th they wouldn't be whole. 2c 

Why would the seller be responsible for more than the originally transacted price? 

because the buyer is not in the same position that he otherwise would have been had the seller performed the contract. 

For example:  If you own a restaurant, and you prepay for vegetables, the vendor shouldn't be able to show up two days after the veggies were supposed to be delivered and hand you your money back and say, "Sorry bro".  You might have had to pay more to buy veggies at Whole Foods instead.  The seller should not only refund your money, but the difference (if you can show evidence of it) between the original cost of the groceries and the cost of the groceries bought at Whole Foods, and potentially the wages paid to the worker who had to go shopping (and gas, etc), and if quantifiable any business lost.  Its not often pushed for here on the boards, but in most cases that is how contracts are understood (unless remedies are otherwise stated).  Whether its worth enforcing is another issue.

I appreciate your point, but I do not think, as far as I can remember, any precedent vis a vis the PL that if a seller refunds a buyer the full value of the original transaction that the seller continues thereafter to be liable for any inconveniencies or additional costs assumed by the buyer seeking another copy elsewhere. 

So if for example I sell you a book and ship it, and it is lost or damaged in transit, and I rightly issue a full refund to you, I cannot be additionally responsible for your personal choice to pursue another copy thereafter and indefinitely according to your own particular expectations of what you should have to pay for a comparable copy. 

That said, I agree completely that how the transaction unfolded does not inspire confidence. 

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1 minute ago, crassus said:

I appreciate your point, but I do not think, as far as I can remember, any precedent vis a vis the PL that if a seller refunds a buyer the full value of the original transaction that the seller continues thereafter to be liable for any inconveniencies or additional costs assumed by the buyer seeking another copy elsewhere. 

So if for example I sell you a book and ship it, and it is lost or damaged in transit, and I rightly issue a full refund to you, I cannot be additionally responsible for your personal choice to pursue another copy thereafter and indefinitely according to your own particular expectations of what you should have to pay for a comparable copy. 

That said, I agree completely that how the transaction unfolded does not inspire confidence. 

I generally agree that this is probably not a PL issue.  But I think the point is somewhat different when a seller purposely accepts the money, purposely doesn't send it, and then purposely lies about it, not that all those elements can be proven necessarily.  When the seller makes a good faith attempt to complete the sale, a full refund seems more reasonable, without additional compensation.  BUT if the seller were to sell for a higher price elsewhere, the buyer (in a court of law, which this is not) might be entitled to not only a refund but the profits of the new sale above the original asking price. 

I think the PL has generally not been utilized to litigate, but get things 'pretty whole'.  But as stated above, I think we've entered (maybe not deeply, but entered nonetheless) the HOS zone.  In the even the OP wanted to nominate, I would certainly support the nomination.  Not the biggest grift in history, but the notion of billing for time....wow.

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So there's no actual proof that Prez did not send the book, correct? I mean, he probably didn't but we don't actually know he didn't so that part is conjecture.

Now where can I send my pro-rata $50/hour invoice for reading this thread?

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7 hours ago, ExNihilo said:

i'm not too familiar with the probation rules/guidelines, but once you received the PayPal refund on April 10th, wouldn't that have made you whole?

I don't get this, as soon as you get your money back, he is no longer obligated to give you anything at that point since it is as though the transaction never occurred in the first place.

My view of the situation is you would be correct had the refund been the result of the book being lost or destroyed. At that point the deal failed due to intervening circumstances.

The seller here seems to have been unwilling to provide ANY proof of shipment, and by any, I mean even telling the buyer when he shipped the book or where you shipped it from. His unwillingness to give that information coupled with his not having the tracking information makes me think he never shipped the book.

If he didn't ship the book then a refund is not sufficient. If he never shipped the book it is the equivalent of just refusing to go forward with the transaction.

Due to lack of proof either way, however, I think the proof necessary for the PL is lacking. I will say that his communication leaves much to be desired and he will likely end up on some personal do not deal with lists.

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@bluehorseshoe Just curious if you sent Prez a separate PM notifying him of this thread as per the rules?

Also, sorry this happened, and like Red84 said, this thread alone will likely prevent many from buying from him in the future. I had never hear of him before this, but he's certainly on my "do not deal" list now.

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12 hours ago, bluehorseshoe said:

Here is a complete screenshot copy of the entire PM regarding this transaction above:

12 hours ago, bluehorseshoe said:

Here is a complete screenshot copy of the entire PM regarding this transaction above:

 

It doesn't look like the entire PM as there are portions missing where you dispute the $15 airmail charge for boxed delivery and also where you go into detail on your expectations of the condition of the book.

Could you please provide the complete PM conversation for clarity ?

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17 hours ago, Jaydee said:
On ‎3‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 12:36 PM, Jaydee said:

:takeit:

For $28?

 

On ‎3‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 1:29 PM, Jaydee said:

IG Scottie For $4?:takeit:

 

On ‎3‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 10:51 PM, prez said:

 

^^ A+ in Math

 

On ‎4‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 9:03 AM, Jaydee said:

Any Updates?

 

On ‎4‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 9:07 AM, Jaydee said:

Awating Payment information it has been a Month?

@Jaydee Just my 2c but imo you have a stronger and clearer case for PL nomination, as your transaction is absolutely and clearly incomplete. As of tomorrow it will be 30 days since the seller acknowledged your buys and has failed to follow through with payment information. It is therefore still possible that the seller has the books and could complete the transaction. This would be the straightest line to a PL nomination. 

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I agree, I would never deal with him.  And this transaction is upsetting.  I think he should be placed in Hos or prob...i dont think we are the only ones.   

1 hour ago, crassus said:

@Jaydee Just my 2c but imo you have a stronger and clearer case for PL nomination, as your transaction is absolutely and clearly incomplete. As of tomorrow it will be 30 days since the seller acknowledged your buys and has failed to follow through with payment information. It is therefore still possible that the seller has the books and could complete the transaction. This would be the straightest line to a PL nomination. 

 

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