"Unpressed" noted on the CGC Label 0

[The Lions Den]

6 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

1. Grading is subjective; an entity cannot be sued for giving an honest opinion, without mitigating circumstances that would demonstrate a certain level of negligence and/or deception.

1a. CGC guarantees only that A the item is authentic, and B. it was inspected by two professionals. There are no other guarantees CGC offers, including the detection of restoration. Therefore, if CGC fails to detect restoration...even restoration that might be obvious to even the most casual observer...they cannot be sued for fraud (and for it to be FRAUD, you'd have to PROVE that CGC was aware that there was restoration present, and ignored it, and that would be a very difficult case to prove. You can't sue for fraud just because someone may have made a mistake. Well...you can, but it would be a waste of your time and money.)

2. Restoration is either there or it is not, but proper pressing neither adds to, nor takes away from, a comic, and, while being a form of restoration, does not fall under the category of "restoration" recognized in the hobby.

3. Despite the claims of some, pressing cannot be detected all the time, regardless of by whom. A substantial number of books are pressed that do not exhibit any signs of pressing. If it cannot be detected (as opposed to merely being missed), it would...in contrast to your position here...open CGC up to liability if they "miss" it. Bad pressing is detectable, and yes...despite the claims of many, it IS factored into the grade of the book...but most good pressing is not. 

4. Trimming, color touch, tear seals, pieces added...all of these things CAN be detected, and are not original to the book, even if sometimes they are missed. Books can be "pressed" merely by stacking them properly in a box over time, therefore "pressing" can occur even if that's not the intent of the owner of the comic; color touch, trimming, tear seals, and other forms of recognized restoration does not happen...ever..."by accident."

5. Hoping that someone sues CGC on their own message board is probably not a wise idea.

Because of those reasons, I doubt you'd be convincing any jury of "confidence games."

I find that most people who think "pressing is restoration and ought to be disclosed" are people unfamiliar with what pressing actually is or does.

Well said...  

[jimbo_7071]

25 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

1. Grading is subjective; an entity cannot be sued for giving an honest opinion, without mitigating circumstances that would demonstrate a certain level of negligence and/or deception.

1a. CGC guarantees only that A. the item is authentic, and B. it was inspected by two professionals. There are no other guarantees CGC offers, including the detection of restoration. Therefore, if CGC fails to detect restoration...even restoration that might be obvious to even the most casual observer...they cannot be sued for fraud (and for it to be FRAUD, you'd have to PROVE that CGC was aware that there was restoration present, and ignored it, and that would be a very difficult case to prove. You can't sue for fraud just because someone may have made a mistake. Well...you can, but it would be a waste of your time and money.)

2. Restoration is either there or it is not, but proper pressing neither adds to, nor takes away from, a comic, and, while being a form of restoration, does not fall under the category of "restoration" recognized in the hobby.

3. Despite the claims of some, pressing cannot be detected all the time, regardless of by whom. A substantial number of books are pressed that do not exhibit any signs of pressing. If it cannot be detected (as opposed to merely being missed), it would...in contrast to your position here...open CGC up to liability if they "miss" it. Bad pressing is detectable, and yes...despite the claims of many, it IS factored into the grade of the book...but most good pressing is not. 

4. Trimming, color touch, tear seals, pieces added...all of these things CAN be detected, and are not original to the book, even if sometimes they are missed. Books can be "pressed" merely by stacking them properly in a box over time, therefore "pressing" can occur even if that's not the intent of the owner of the comic; color touch, trimming, tear seals, and other forms of recognized restoration does not happen...ever..."by accident."

5. Hoping that someone sues CGC on their own message board is probably not a wise idea.

Because of those reasons, I doubt you'd be convincing any jury of "confidence games."

I find that most people who think "pressing is restoration and ought to be disclosed" are people unfamiliar with what pressing actually is or does.

BBM

I find that people who find that "most people who think 'pressing is restoration and ought to be disclosed' are people unfamiliar with what pressing actually is or does" are biased in favor of pressing.

If you don't want to call it restoration, maybe you'd be more comfortable calling it damage. I'd be good with that.

I don't agree with your comments in no. 3. Many books with obvious signs of "bad" pressing have gotten a free pass since Classics Inc. was acquired by CGC. Willfully and systematically ignoring damage caused by a process from which CGC profits would constitute fraud, in my opinion, meaningless disclaimers notwithstanding.

[The Lions Den]

I have seen books that were improperly pressed and it did cause a significant downgrade to the book. I've also seen books that were expertly pressed and those books were given the appropriate grade as well. 

I do think there are times when the grade given to a poorly pressed book was too generous, but that's a matter of opinion. And when it comes to certified books, my opinion doesn't matter...  

[RockMyAmadeus]

24 minutes ago, jimbo_7071 said:

BBM

I'm unaware of what "BBM" stands for.

24 minutes ago, jimbo_7071 said:

I find that people who find that "most people who think 'pressing is restoration and ought to be disclosed' are people unfamiliar with what pressing actually is or does" are biased in favor of pressing.

Are you familiar with what pressing actually is or does? Have you pressed yourself, or had books pressed?

24 minutes ago, jimbo_7071 said:

If you don't want to call it restoration, maybe you'd be more comfortable calling it damage. I'd be good with that.

Of course, since you are opposed to it. I have already stated that pressing is restoration, and have said so many times in the past.

Calling it damage tells me you don't have much, or perhaps any, experience with proper pressing.

24 minutes ago, jimbo_7071 said:

I don't agree with your comments in no. 3. Many books with obvious signs of "bad" pressing have gotten a free pass since Classics Inc. was acquired by CGC.

Evidence? And I don't mean specific examples of books that you think have gotten a "free pass" (by which I assume you mean flaws that were caused by pressing.) I mean evidence that CGC has systematically and purposely directed its graders to ignore flaws which were the direct result of bad pressing, and only attributable to bad pressing.

Because if the evidence you have can be attributed to anything other than bad pressing, you're not going to be able to prove your case, short of signed confessions or leaked internal memos....the stuff of spy thrillers.

24 minutes ago, jimbo_7071 said:

Willfully and systematically ignoring damage caused by a process from which CGC profits would constitute fraud, in my opinion, meaningless disclaimers notwithstanding.

Yes, but your opinion of what does, and does not, constitute fraud isn't relevant; the legal definition of fraud is all that matters, and in no circumstance are you going to find that giving an opinion about the condition of an item is going to satisfy the legal definition of fraud, short of other, mitigating circumstances, like conflict of interest (like purchasing a book you, the CGC grader, graded, or selling a book you graded.)

I'm not a lawyer, and I'm sure one or two of the dozens of lawyers on the board can explain it better than I can, but the principle is fairly straightforward: for fraud to exist, there has to be a deliberate deception involved. Fraud doesn't happen "by accident." Giving your opinion as to the condition of an item, by nature, is subjective. If I think a book is a 2.5, and you think it's a 9.8, one of us is not necessarily guilty of fraud. If I think a book is 2.5, and know that CGC graded it a 9.8, and I say "CGC graded this a 2.5 also!"...THAT would be fraud.

 

Edited May 28, 2019 by RockMyAmadeus

[RockMyAmadeus]

11 minutes ago, The Lions Den said:

I have seen books that were improperly pressed and it did cause a significant downgrade to the book. I've also seen books that were expertly pressed and those books were given the appropriate grade as well. 

I do think there are times when the grade given to a poorly pressed book was too generous, but that's a matter of opinion. And when it comes to certified books, my opinion doesn't matter...  

Mine neither.

[jimbo_7071]

1 hour ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I'm unaware of what "BBM" stands for.

Are you familiar with what pressing actually is or does? Have you pressed yourself, or had books pressed?

Of course, since you are opposed to it. I have already stated that pressing is restoration, and have said so many times in the past.

Calling it damage tells me you don't have much, or perhaps any, experience with proper pressing.

Evidence? And I don't mean specific examples of books that you think have gotten a "free pass" (by which I assume you mean flaws that were caused by pressing.) I mean evidence that CGC has systematically and purposely directed its graders to ignore flaws which were the direct result of bad pressing, and only attributable to bad pressing.

Because if the evidence you have can be attributed to anything other than bad pressing, you're not going to be able to prove your case, short of signed confessions or leaked internal memos....the stuff of spy thrillers.

Yes, but your opinion of what does, and does not, constitute fraud isn't relevant; the legal definition of fraud is all that matters, and in no circumstance are you going to find that giving an opinion about the condition of an item is going to satisfy the legal definition of fraud, short of other, mitigating circumstances, like conflict of interest (like purchasing a book you, the CGC grader, graded, or selling a book you graded.)

I'm not a lawyer, and I'm sure one or two of the dozens of lawyers on the board can explain it better than I can, but the principle is fairly straightforward: for fraud to exist, there has to be a deliberate deception involved. Fraud doesn't happen "by accident." Giving your opinion as to the condition of an item, by nature, is subjective. If I think a book is a 2.5, and you think it's a 9.8, one of us is not necessarily guilty of fraud. If I think a book is 2.5, and know that CGC graded it a 9.8, and I say "CGC graded this a 2.5 also!"...THAT would be fraud.

 

BBM  means boldface by me, but I forgot to embolden the pertinent text.

Back in the 80s I paid Susan Ciccone to repair a tear on a book—different attitudes about restoration prevailed back then—and I believe she cleaned and pressed the cover afterward, if I remember what she told me correctly. I've never requested that a book be pressed.

I don't have books pressed and wouldn't knowingly buy a pressed book unless it was a rare issue and I doubted my ability to find an unpressed copy.

I suspect that damage occurs every time a book is pressed, even if that damage isn't immediately apparent. There are an awful lot of GA and SA books out there that appear to have a slight amount of cover shrinkage. It is normal for the pages to protrude from the cover in a V formation, but I never used to see books where a measurable portion of the first wrap was visible beyond the cover; now I see that routinely. The Cole Schave thread provided plenty of examples.

I also see many, many more books with rusted staples now than I ever used to see. The passage of time could account for part of that, but I suspect that the humidity to which books are exposed during pressing acts as a catalyst for rust, which may appear months or years down the road. It certainly seems like the explosion of rusty staples correlates well with the CPR craze.

[jcjames]

5 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

.... restoration does not happen...ever..."by accident."

I dunno.

There are some very clever cats who can bring up ebay on a laptop, find a comic for sale, enter a reasonable bid, confirm the bid and submit it... all by accident without the account owner even knowing!!   

Maybe a very clever cat can take a book out of a bag, hold a sharpie and dab a couple times at the spine, and put it back in the bag without nobody knowing nothing! Could happen!

[The Lions Den]

9 hours ago, jimbo_7071 said:

I also see many, many more books with rusted staples now than I ever used to see. The passage of time could account for part of that, but I suspect that the humidity to which books are exposed during pressing acts as a catalyst for rust, which may appear months or years down the road. It certainly seems like the explosion of rusty staples correlates well with the CPR craze.

  

[musicmeta]

16 hours ago, comix4fun said:

In that vein, I have long boxes of post-unity valiants, mid-90's Image books & foil embossed Marvel books that can be designated "unseen", as they are in stacks of multiples that no one has ever seen nor has ever wanted to see. 

Yes, if there is no evidence of "eye prints" then the book can be designated as unseen..How 'bout that! 

[Buzzetta]

19 hours ago, bronze johnny said:

Dear CGC, 

Can you note "Unpressed" on the label for books submitted from my collection that were purchased by me off the newsstand and never pressed? If not, can you please explain?*

Thanks,

John

* I've submitted this question to CGC in the Ask CGC section. Also posted this in Restoration Forum.

No, because like the signature series program, your word is not good enough.  The chain of evidence has already been broken. 

[bronze johnny]

5 minutes ago, Buzzetta said:

No, because like the signature series program, your word is not good enough.  The chain of evidence has already been broken. 

What about books in my collection that are in poly bags and multi pack bagged comics that have never been unsealed? There's no break in the "chain of evidence" Would CGC simply open, grade, and slab?

🙏 

[Jeffro.]

16 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

17 hours ago, comix4fun said:

In that vein, I have long boxes of post-unity valiants, mid-90's Image books & foil embossed Marvel books that can be designated "unseen", as they are in stacks of multiples that no one has ever seen nor has ever wanted to see. 

That's BRILLIANT! I've got boxes of 80s indie garbage that no one cares about...I'm asking for an "unloved" designation, STAT!

Will you two STOP IT!! You're going to give CVA new sticker ideas. 

[Anfield Fox]

I'm pretty much only ever here for PMs these days but I find it hilarious that over 13 years after i joined people are still arguing about pressing

[newshane]

11 hours ago, jimbo_7071 said:

I also see many, many more books with rusted staples now than I ever used to see. The passage of time could account for part of that, but I suspect that the humidity to which books are exposed during pressing acts as a catalyst for rust, which may appear months or years down the road. It certainly seems like the explosion of rusty staples correlates well with the CPR craze.

This is way off base IMHO. 

[joeypost]

12 minutes ago, newshane said:

This is way off base IMHO. 

Not even in the ballpark. 

[JWKyle]

11 hours ago, jimbo_7071 said:

 

Back in the 80s I paid Susan Ciccone to repair a tear on a book—different attitudes about restoration prevailed back then—and I believe she cleaned and pressed the cover afterward, if I remember what she told me correctly. I've never requested that a book be pressed.

 

Susan did a interview with Vinny from Metropolis back in the mid 2000's. When she talked about pressing she talked about disassembly and restoration type pressing. I'm not sure she was even aware of the whole book press for CGC grades bumps at the time. I do think some people do get too aggressive or use improper methods all the time and books are more harmed then improved. But a nicely and properly pressed book is darn near undetectable . 

[comix4fun]

14 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I'm unaware of what "BBM" stands for.

 

Angie Dickinson at her peak....

Edited May 28, 2019 by comix4fun

[The Lions Den]

2 hours ago, bronze johnny said:

What about books in my collection that are in poly bags and multi pack bagged comics that have never been unsealed? There's no break in the "chain of evidence" Would CGC simply open, grade, and slab?

🙏

That's 100% correct, John. They'll even return the empty polybag (s) with your order.  

Ironically, polybagged books are usually good pressing candidates. Over time, the seam of many polybags has a tendency to leave a distinct vertical indentation on the cover of the comic within. The book(s) will almost always be downgraded due to this flaw. I guess it's "break the bad news" Tuesday...  

[telerites]

1 hour ago, comix4fun said:

Angie Dickinson at her peak....

A Corman classic!  Thanks, Chris for jogging my memory of this movie.

I am ashamed to say I never watched the sequel but it's on my watch list now.

Edited May 28, 2019 by telerites

[bronze johnny]

10 minutes ago, The Lions Den said:

That's 100% correct, John. They'll even return the empty polybag (s) with your order.  

Ironically, polybagged books are usually good pressing candidates. Over time, the seam of many polybags has a tendency to leave a distinct vertical indentation on the cover of the comic within. The book(s) will almost always be downgraded due to this flaw. I guess it's "break the bad news" Tuesday...  

Excellent point about the vertical indentation