When will the other shoe drop with CGC and the 'crack, press, and resub' game? 3 3

[MatterEaterLad]

3 hours ago, THE_BEYONDER said:

The AF 15?

My book. And the post is in the Restoration area. There's a scan if you'd like to weigh in.

[THE_BEYONDER]

13 minutes ago, MatterEaterLad said:

My book. And the post is in the Restoration area. There's a scan if you'd like to weigh in.

I’m curious what CCS would recommend.   Is there much of a price differential between a purple 1.5 and blue 1.5?

 

You might be right that a straight resub would garner a blue label these days.

 

 

[Rip]

Susan regularly presses books unless something recently changed. Its been a few years since I had her do any work.

I've called on her great services many times. Wonderful person to talk with. I can't say enough nice things about her.

Disassembled comics, and reassemble BTW still get the blue label. 

Edited July 24, 2019 by Rip
I instead of A

[THE_BEYONDER]

2 minutes ago, Rip said:

 

Disassembled comics BTW still get the blue label.

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 hours ago, Jeffro™ said:

Well said. From the beginning, If CGC considered pressing to be restoration and thus PLOD, we likely wouldn't even be talking about this in 2019.

I cannot stress enough that this would have been a complete disaster, because books that "look pressed" but weren't, and books that were pressed, but didn't look like it, are all over the place. And what about the folks who put books under encycopedias? 

95+% of the books I've pressed, you would never know it. I'm approaching 10,000 books pressed since 2010. I can pull 500 slabs out right now, and they wouldn't show any sign of pressing...and they've all been pressed.

If it weren't the case...if pressing left lasting signs on every book, the way trimming does, the way color touch does, the way married pages does, the way any other form of additive or destructive restoration does...I'd be with you 100%. But it doesn't. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 hours ago, THE_BEYONDER said:

2 hours ago, Jeffro™ said:

Well said. From the beginning, If CGC considered pressing to be restoration and thus PLOD, we likely wouldn't even be talking about this in 2019.

They had no choice.  Their slabs were causing damage via SCS, and they had to be able to fix that damage.

This is something that ought to be discussed more openly.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Susan announced, several years ago, that she would no longer be doing any pressing by itself, but that, of course, when involved with other restoration work, it would be done.

Here's a great video from 2008:

 

Edited July 24, 2019 by RockMyAmadeus

[Rip]

Well, lets just say that rule didn't last very long.

[RockMyAmadeus]

In a sense...the work and goal of the Network of Disclosure was successful. Pressing and cleaning is now no longer done "in secret." It is....for better or for worse...completely out of the closet, and an "established" part of the comic collecting industry.

The issue in cards was that this stuff was being done on the sly, without the general public being aware of it. That's not the case in comics. The general comic buying public is aware that these things are happening, and has generally accepted it. That's the difference. Even if a specific seller doesn't disclose it, most buyers are now aware of it and assume it's been done.

As said before, collectors just want the best looking original copy they can get. Whether the book survived that way for 60 years, or was pressed and cleaned into it, the market doesn't really mind, generally speaking. I totally sympathize with the guys who want to leave everything exactly like it is...but if I have a beautiful Crime Suspenstories #22...say a Gaines file copy...that is perfect in every way EXCEPT for a slight 1/2" NCB bend in the upper right corner....that bend is going to eat at me every time I look at that book, especially if I caused it. So I'll fix it. And it will make me happy. And the book will have MOSTLY survived the years in perfect condition. My happiness at undoing that slight damage far, far outweighs...in my mind, by my way of thinking...the fact that it's no longer 100% original...but only 97% original.

It used to break my heart to discover books that I had spent a considerable amount of effort and time and money in preserving perfectly, only to have a tape indentation in the front cover, or a folded bag corner indentation, or worst of all, a board indentation. All my effort was for naught. When I discovered that I could undo that damage...it completely changed how I view comics. If I had discovered pressing in 2000, instead of 2008, I daresay my eBay experience, getting tens of thousands of crunched up books because of garbage packaging, it would have saved me a boatload of frustration and annoyance. "No worries...I can just fix it."

That's the best way I can explain it.

 

[Randall Dowling]

3 hours ago, comicwiz said:

Thank-you.

We need this more than normal to clear the air of contextual laziness, which to me is far more mind-numbing than the Dennis Miller drive-by's to remind us of the old "pressing thread" rerun that's airing.

Agreed.  I hope the people understand that the concern is for the overall health of the hobby (and by correlation, CGC).  It won't be very funny if confidence in the market is lost and collectors leave with only comic dealers and speculators holding books.  1994 was pretty bad for comics but luckily, the market came back.  I don't think that'll happen twice.  Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice...

It's why really big money collectibles demand authenticity, disclosure, and provenance.  

[THE_BEYONDER]

12 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

In a sense...the work and goal of the Network of Disclosure was successful. Pressing and cleaning is now no longer done "in secret." It is....for better or for worse...completely out of the closet, and an "established" part of the comic collecting industry.

The issue in cards was that this stuff was being done on the sly, without the general public being aware of it. That's not the case in comics. The general comic buying public is aware that these things are happening, and has generally accepted it. That's the difference. Even if a specific seller doesn't disclose it, most buyers are now aware of it and assume it's been done.

As said before, collectors just want the best looking original copy they can get. Whether the book survived that way for 60 years, or was pressed and cleaned into it, the market doesn't really mind, generally speaking. I totally sympathize with the guys who want to leave everything exactly like it is...but if I have a beautiful Crime Suspenstories #22...say a Gaines file copy...that is perfect in every way EXCEPT for a slight 1/2" NCB bend in the upper right corner....that bend is going to eat at me every time I look at that book, especially if I caused it. So I'll fix it. And it will make me happy. And the book will have MOSTLY survived the years in perfect condition. My happiness at undoing that slight damage far, far outweighs...in my mind, by my way of thinking...the fact that it's no longer 100% original...but only 97% original.

It used to break my heart to discover books that I had spent a considerable amount of effort and time and money in preserving perfectly, only to have a tape indentation in the front cover, or a folded bag corner indentation, or worst of all, a board indentation. All my effort was for naught. When I discovered that I could undo that damage...it completely changed how I view comics. If I had discovered pressing in 2000, instead of 2008, I daresay my eBay experience, getting tens of thousands of crunched up books because of garbage packaging, it would have saved me a boatload of frustration and annoyance. "No worries...I can just fix it."

That's the best way I can explain it.

 

“The general comic buying public is aware...”

 

Are they really though?  Where are they learning about these things?  These forums contain only a small fraction of the overall consumers of comic books, and even here one has to be quite prolific in their reading to keep up with everything.  

Edited July 24, 2019 by THE_BEYONDER

[RockMyAmadeus]

Just now, THE_BEYONDER said:

“The general comic buying public is aware...”

 

Are they really though?  Where are they learning about these things?  These forums contain only a small fraction of the overall consumers of comic books, and one has to be quite prolific in their reading to keep up with everything.  

There are pressers set up in every convention, with huge banners advertising their wares...plus CCS.

And while pressing does happen for raw books, the vast majority of it is done for the slabbed market. Once you're introduced to slabbing, you're introduced to the idea of pressing. 

So when you combine that with the fact that the nicest, best quality books are generally ending up in slabs, then the people interested in those types of books are going to find out about pressing almost by default.

[THE_BEYONDER]

4 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

There are pressers set up in every convention, with huge banners advertising their wares...plus CCS.

And while pressing does happen for raw books, the vast majority of it is done for the slabbed market. Once you're introduced to slabbing, you're introduced to the idea of pressing. 

So when you combine that with the fact that the nicest, best quality books are generally ending up in slabs, then the people interested in those types of books are going to find out about pressing almost by default.

I’m not convinced....

[namisgr]

49 minutes ago, Rip said:

Disassembled comics, and reassemble BTW still get the blue label. 

 

46 minutes ago, THE_BEYONDER said:

 

Once CGC defined restoration as treatments intended to return the comic book to a known or assumed state through the addition of non-original material, disassembly and reassembly for spine realignment and other pressing scenarios fell under the blue label umbrella.

 

Edited July 24, 2019 by namisgr

[James J Johnson]

10 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

In a sense...the work and goal of the Network of Disclosure was successful. Pressing and cleaning is now no longer done "in secret." It is....for better or for worse...completely out of the closet, and an "established" part of the comic collecting industry.

The issue in cards was that this stuff was being done on the sly, without the general public being aware of it. That's not the case in comics. The general comic buying public is aware that these things are happening, and has generally accepted it. That's the difference. Even if a specific seller doesn't disclose it, most buyers are now aware of it and assume it's been done.

As said before, collectors just want the best looking original copy they can get. Whether the book survived that way for 60 years, or was pressed and cleaned into it, the market doesn't really mind, generally speaking. I totally sympathize with the guys who want to leave everything exactly like it is...but if I have a beautiful Crime Suspenstories #22...say a Gaines file copy...that is perfect in every way EXCEPT for a slight 1/2" NCB bend in the upper right corner....that bend is going to eat at me every time I look at that book, especially if I caused it. So I'll fix it. And it will make me happy. And the book will have MOSTLY survived the years in perfect condition. My happiness at undoing that slight damage far, far outweighs...in my mind, by my way of thinking...the fact that it's no longer 100% original...but only 97% original.

It used to break my heart to discover books that I had spent a considerable amount of effort and time and money in preserving perfectly, only to have a tape indentation in the front cover, or a folded bag corner indentation, or worst of all, a board indentation. All my effort was for naught. When I discovered that I could undo that damage...it completely changed how I view comics. If I had discovered pressing in 2000, instead of 2008, I daresay my eBay experience, getting tens of thousands of crunched up books because of garbage packaging, it would have saved me a boatload of frustration and annoyance. "No worries...I can just fix it."

That's the best way I can explain it.

 

I must add that I don't remember discussed pressing with a major dealer at any time and afterward had to swear an oath of secrecy to them. If pressing was a secret, or supposed to be a secret, it wasn't a good or well kept one, before or during CGC years. "Cleaned and pressed" was recurrent language in the descriptions of books for sale in trade papers prior to online sales times. The hobby is much bigger today than it was 20 years ago, and I believe, due to CGC's existence as the major contributing factor. So acceptable pressing is more commonplace and the rules of blue label qualified pressing and cleaning are slightly different. But by no means is this anything new.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Just now, namisgr said:

 

 

Once CGC defined restoration as treatments intended to return the comic book to a known or assumed state through the addition of non-original material, disassembly and reassembly for spine realignment and other pressing situations fell under the blue label umbrella.

 

I vaguely remember when this came to light on these boards, but it seems like a lifetime ago.  I’m surprised that disassembly is still permitted.

[THE_BEYONDER]

4 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

I must add that I don't remember discussed pressing with a major dealer at any time and afterward had to swear an oath of secrecy to them. If pressing was a secret, or supposed to be a secret, it wasn't a good or well kept one, before or during CGC years. "Cleaned and pressed" was recurrent language in the descriptions of books for sale in trade papers prior to online sales times. The hobby is much bigger today than it was 20 years ago, and I believe, due to CGC's existence as the major contributing factor. So acceptable pressing is more commonplace and the rules of blue label qualified pressing and cleaning are slightly different. But by no means is this anything new.

It was a huge scandal when news got out that CGC was secretly pressing books in-house for select clients.

[namisgr]

13 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

 "Cleaned and pressed" was recurrent language in the descriptions of books for sale in trade papers prior to online sales times...... So acceptable pressing is more commonplace and the rules of blue label qualified pressing and cleaning are slightly different. But by no means is this anything new.

In the days before CGC, the phrase 'cleaned and pressed' commonly referred to comics given solvent cleaning, followed by the pressing necessary to prevent the cover from coming out wrinkled.  And this is how CGC started using it as well, labeling restored books with the phrase on its original old purple labels.  It didn't typically refer to dry cleaning and pressing done to take out dents and bends.

Like this example:

Edited July 24, 2019 by namisgr

[kav]

20 minutes ago, THE_BEYONDER said:

“The general comic buying public is aware...”

 

Are they really though?  Where are they learning about these things?  These forums contain only a small fraction of the overall consumers of comic books, and even here one has to be quite prolific in their reading to keep up with everything.  

I agree they are NOT aware.  I talk to people at LCS a lot and if I mention pressing even to the employees I get "huh"?

[James J Johnson]

Just now, namisgr said:

The phrase 'cleaned and pressed' commonly referred to comics given solvent cleaning, followed by the pressing necessary to prevent the cover from wrinkling.  And this is how CGC started it, labeling restored books with the phrase even on its original old purple labels.  It didn't commonly refer to dry cleaning and pressing done to take out dents and bends.

But they did that too (spine revision, bends, and wrinkles).

The first post poses a question as to if shoes will be dropping in comics as they are in cards. We've lost track of that. But let's backtrack and compare.

Comics big debate is pressing, a non-invasive remedy to rolls, wrinkles, bends, non-colorbreaking creases, puffiness, etc.

If we wanted to compare that to what's going on in cards, CGC would have to be slabbing as unrestored:

trimmed comics

stretched comics so new edges can be created using similar machinery to factory standards

bleached comics

fake comics

and more

These are the shoes that are dropping in the card hobby and why no shoes are dropping in this hobby with CGC graded comics. There's none of that in blue label CGC slabs, thus no shoes to fall.