When will the other shoe drop with CGC and the 'crack, press, and resub' game? 3 3

[JWKyle]

2 minutes ago, comicwiz said:

Disclosure. It would be great if every bit of work performed, every detail of it, is described. Did you lift dust with tissue, use an eraser, naphtha. If the corrective work was to remedy paper degradation (i.e. foxing), whatever was used to remove it should be disclosed, as well as photos showing what was there prior. Dissambly is a no-go for me, so it goes without saying that when it starts getting into more extensive "doctoring" it better be disclosed.

i'm not against pressing and I have no problem with disclosure either. Say CGC made a note that a book was pressed by CCS in the verified label area I would be 1000% for that. 

[James J Johnson]

3 minutes ago, comicwiz said:

That's not what you're really thinking. Now is it?  

I think I know far too much about the card hobby and what's in those card slabs that has a whole lot of people upset, to allow direct comparison to CGC slabbed comics to go unchallenged. There is no comparison between the two. The entire premise for this thread, that there is cause for comparison is false and just an excuse to gripe about CGC. .  

[comicwiz]

1 minute ago, JWKyle said:

i'm not against pressing and I have no problem with disclosure either. Say CGC made a note that a book was pressed by CCS in the verified label area I would be 1000% for that. 

Before I was mischaracterized for my Orwellian stance, I did allude to the previous FTC redress plan which forced NCI to basically disclose they were inflating their grades. Admittedly, the "doctoring" techniques even discussed in this thread (with current examples) caught me by surprise. Things have seemingly gotten so out of hand that I would welcome something of a similar idea as you mention, noting all work done, and make it a requirement to include that document whenever a comic is listed. In certain collecting categories, listing a graded item without a COA will not garner any attention or bids. Food for thought.

[Randall Dowling]

Sigh...

I get that everyone is throughly entrenched in their respective positions.  If you've been pressing books and getting upgrades from CGC for a decade, of course you'll insist there's nothing wrong with it.  Except...

Except, evidence keeps showing up of the negative outcomes.  And everyone dismisses those examples as "bad pressing".  Except, CCS has many examples of the same negative outcomes from their pressing, so are you saying that CCS is bad at pressing?  And then everyone dismisses it as nobody cares about pressing.  Except, every collector that I'm personally friends with dislikes it greatly.  And then everyone says "but you can't detect it".  Except, many times, you can.  Not always, but many times.  Just like trimming.  You can't always detect it, but most of the time, knowledgable people can.  Should we not identify trimming because it can't be accurately detected 100% of the time?

The issue is this.  I don't think people that press books are evil, bad, or any other pejorative term.  People can press comics.  People can burn comics if they like.  People can leave their collection of Church books in the basement for cats to pee on them.  It's a free country.  My personal issue is that encouraging this activity that is undisclosed and very tough to detect while in a slab, creates an atmosphere of doubt about the state of a given book in the slab.  Which kind of defeats the point of certification.

My suggestion is that CGC simply identify books when they can tell they've been pressed.  Or even more, when they know they've been pressed by CCS.  Keep it in a blue label.  Just note that it's been pressed.  This should minimize the laundry cycle some books have been through 6, 7, 8, or more times.  And after going through the ringer 8 times, those books are fugly.  Not fresh- sad looking.  And if no-one really has a problem with pressing, there should be no difference in valuation between the ones noted "Pressed" and the ones that aren't.  Except...

Except, I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that there would be a difference.  And a whole lot of people could lose their revenue streams.  So the game continues.  Until everybody  that could be burned is burned and the last person with the comics loses.  After 40+ years of collecting, I like others, have decided the only way to win is not to play.  Don't buy books that have been certified.  They are far more likely to have been tampered with than raw copies.

[comicwiz]

10 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

That's not what you're really thinking. Now is it?  

I think I know far too much about the card hobby and what's in those card slabs that has a whole lot of people upset, to allow direct comparison to CGC slabbed comics to go unchallenged. There is no comparison between the two. The entire premise for this thread, that there is cause for comparison is false and just an excuse to gripe about CGC. .  

That's what's kind of surprising about this all. You supposedly know what's going on in sportscards, and recognize it for the fraudulant activity it is. You are the grand puba of knowledge, we are not worthy...

But you seem to not recognize it's a problem here, with all the anecdotal examples and information that's been shared about the goings on. You realize the common thread here is protecting people from being rooked, but you still need to mischaracterize me as having an axe to grind.

That's your right, but it certainly calls into question your motives and reasons for going on the bend and tirade you've been on, not only towards me either, but others as well who have spoken succinctly on the problems that exist.

Edited July 25, 2019 by comicwiz

[ADAMANTIUM]

i can't speak for other's..... i've paid for pressing twice and have many subs that i don't....and only did it twice for one book each...

[comicwiz]

6 minutes ago, Randall Dowling said:

And if no-one really has a problem with pressing, there should be no difference in valuation between the ones noted "Pressed" and the ones that aren't.  Except...

Except, I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that there would be a difference.  And a whole lot of people could lose their revenue streams.  So the game continues.

That's it in a nutshell.

[Randall Dowling]

22 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I have no problem with disclosure. I like disclosing what I've done, because it makes me happy. Not because this book is now worth $XXXX more now!!!, but because it looks better. I'm thrilled to no end that pressing can take an 8.0 and turn it into a 9.4. Absolutely thrilled with it, and I like showing off those things...not because I want to brag, but because I am endlessly amazed...even now, nearly 10 years later...at what is possible with just a little bit of heat, a little bit of moisture, and a little bit of pressure. I think it's neat as hell. It's like the guys who show off their cars that they took from rusting heaps to showroom pieces. Same principle. Taking something and making it better.

I agree with every part of this.

[namisgr]

1 hour ago, VintageComics said:

We can go in circles but the fact is that people have been pressing books for as long as there have been wrinkles in comics.

We all did it as kids. I used heavy things like encyclopdias which no longer exist except in a WW2 bomb shelter.

When I grew a little older (maybe 8-10 years old), I used my mom's iron and even remember experimenting with the steam. Does that make me an evil kid?

I definitely remember packing my books tightly in boxes so they wouldn't sag and even remember checking them so see if wrinkles disappeared over time.

-----------------------------------

According to other boardies, pressing was done by Marnin Rosenberg who found the Pennsylvania Pedigree and Greg Buhr who brought the Recil Macon Pedigree to market - both back in the 90's. This was well before CGC was even a thought in someone's mind. It was before the internet.

And while they may not have pressed every book, the incentive was there for more expensive books. There is just more incentive to press books now than there was 25 years ago because even run issues have become more valuable.

So pressing is not 'new', wasn't done on only restored books and is not something devised by CGC.

 

1.  Steve Geppi discovered the Pennsylvania pedigree.  If instead you meant the Massachusetts pedigree that Marnin brought to market back in the early  '90s, no more than 10-15 books from the pedigree were pressed before coming to market for the first time.  The situation is quite different now, with most of the Silver Age Massachusetts books having gotten pressed in the secondary market after the advent of CGC, to the point that it's difficult to find an example that hasn't been.

2.  Where has anybody claimed that pressing is new?  Or that it was devised by CGC?  You've just made these things up out of nowhere.

3.  It's misleading to imply that there were lots of pressed comics in the hobby prior to the advent of CGC.  You know as well as I do that today there are a hundred people pressing comics for every person who was doing so 25 years ago, and as a consequence there are thousands of times more pressed comics in the marketplace now than there used to be 25 years ago.  It's become a literal cottage industry.

4.  The fact is, there are so many pressed comics in the market today that it's become virtually impossible for a collector of high grade Silver Age books to amass a collection of runs of unpressed books.  And that takes away an option away from today's collector who prefers to own and collect unpressed comics over pressed ones.

Edited July 25, 2019 by namisgr

[James J Johnson]

3 minutes ago, comicwiz said:

Before I was mischaracterized for my Orwellian stance, I did allude to the previous FTC redress plan which forced NCI to basically disclose they were inflating their grades. Admittedly, the "doctoring" techniques even discussed in this thread (with current examples) caught me by surprise. Things have seemingly gotten so out of hand that I would welcome something of a similar idea as you mention, noting all work done, and make it a requirement to include that document whenever a comic is listed. In certain collecting categories, listing a graded item without a COA will not garner any attention or bids. Food for thought.

Coins now? We're back to James Halperin being a scallywag? Got anything else? That's it? Halperin, Heritage, NCI, FTC. coin grading... Ancient History101?

Let's cut to the chase. You're passionate about pressing. You hate it. You hate CGC for grading pressed books with a blue label. You'd love to see the whole shebang disappear and the hobby fold like a busted accordion and start anew, this time the way you'd like to see it go.

Now lets be sensible and talk cards, since they are the subject of your opening post and how shoes dropping there over trimmed, bleached and fake cards being slabbed might happen here over pressing. Really? Do you really see the two as the same?  Bleached/trimmed/fake slabbed cards being equal to pressing comics?

[comicwiz]

3 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

Do you really see the two as the same?

I see it as an identical problem when undisclosed alterations achieve an inflated grade.

[Randall Dowling]

7 minutes ago, namisgr said:

3.  It's misleading to imply that there were lots of pressed comics in the hobby prior to the advent of CGC.  You know as well as I do that today there are a hundred people pressing comics for every person who was doing so 25 years ago, and as a consequence there are thousands of times more pressed comics in the marketplace now than there used to be 25 years ago.  It's become a literal cottage industry.

4.  The fact is, there are so many pressed comics in the market today that it's become virtually impossible for a collector of high grade Silver Age books to amass a collection of runs of unpressed books.  And that takes away an option away from today's collector who prefers to own and collect unpressed comics over pressed ones.

Bob, as usual, you're spot on.

[RockMyAmadeus]

No matter how many times people want to compare the two, trimming and pressing are not now, nor will they ever be, the same thing or comparable in any way.

Trimming actively removes material original to the book. Pressing does not. Whether or not trimming can be detected doesn't change the fact that it has either happened or it has not. Trimming does not occur "by accident" or "as a result of happenstance." Pressing can, and does. To the same degree as "dry mount press" professional pressing? Of course not. But in ways that can "make a book look pressed"? Yes.

I press books nearly every day, and have for nearly ten years. I can show you hundreds of examples of books that have been pressed, and no one would know the difference. You think the "it's trimmed, it's not trimmed, it's trimmed" JIM #83 was a mess, imagine what will happen when an original owner brings in a collection which is exquisitely flat, never saw the inside of a press, and are all graded "pressed." It will happen.

If people want to say "you just insist there's nothing wrong with it because you have a financial motive for doing so!", fine. It's cynical, but fine. The fact that a lot of those people BUY those books, at the going rate for them, proves that's not true. People simply want nice looking books. If people want to see it as an ever-revolving turnstyle of justifications...it really is as simple as that: people want nice looking books.

Does that mean "there's nothing wrong with it?" Yes. For me, and those like me. For you, and those like you, there is. It's nothing more than preference.

And yes...it is possible to fix "fugly" pressing and make the book look normal again.

It's really too bad the "top pressers" in the hobby are so secretive about everything. I think those interested could learn a lot about how the process works and what the results are and can be.

[comicwiz]

12 minutes ago, namisgr said:

1.  Steve Geppi discovered the Pennsylvania pedigree.  If instead you meant the Massachusetts pedigree that Marnin brought to market back in the early  '90s, no more than 10-15 books from the pedigree were pressed before coming to market for the first time.  The situation is quite different now, with most of the Silver Age Massachusetts books having gotten pressed after the advent of CGC, to the point that it's difficult to find an example that hasn't been.

2.  Where has anybody claimed that pressing is new?  Or that it was devised by CGC?  You've just made these things up out of nowhere.

3.  It's misleading to imply that there were lots of pressed comics in the hobby prior to the advent of CGC.  You know as well as I do that today there are a hundred people pressing comics for every person who was doing so 25 years ago, and as a consequence there are thousands of times more pressed comics in the marketplace now than there used to be 25 years ago.  It's become a literal cottage industry.

4.  The fact is, there are so many pressed comics in the market today that it's become virtually impossible for a collector of high grade Silver Age books to amass a collection of runs of unpressed books.  And that takes away an option away from today's collector who prefers to own and collect unpressed comics over pressed ones.

Well said. The only thing I would add to this is in a seemingly competitive "cottage industry" with many providers offering to improve the grades of people's comics, there might even be a facet of the reconditioning where the providers toolkit might include work that goes beyond pressing alone. I imagine that many people just ask for the "pressers" opinion of what is possible, an estimated grade, and they probably don't really care they might be using other "stealth" techniques which improve the chance of the book scoring high. It stands to reason that the pressing service wants to impress their client, and everyone eventually is happy, especially when the result exceeds everyone's expectations. But somewhere along the way, it becomes something of a genie out of the bottle, with everyone pushing things to the limit, and it wouldn't surprise me one bit if some of these service providers wouldn't want to disclose exactly what they are doing for fear it will expose their compettive advantage.

That scenario is what has always made me think our desire to own comics that haven't been altered gets trumped, beyond the usual reasons that disclosure might come in the way of making money.

[ComicConnoisseur]

1 hour ago, kav said:

Shoes are dropping like crazy around here

Yes shoes. lol.

 

[VintageComics]

1 hour ago, James J Johnson said:

Because you stated that everybody should have the same knowledge. If we all had the same knowledge, everybody would be a billionaire. But that's not how some become billionaires and others don't. If everyone was a billionaire, the money would have no value. Think billions of marks in post WW 1 Germany.

Knowledge is an interesting topic.

I know someone who made stupid money (like 4-5 figures per product) by buying a product out of a building, shipping it out, repackaging it and then selling it back to someone on the same building.

It was a can of resin. I don't remember the exact amount but it was a charge of $1000's for a can of this resin.

Should the seller have disclosed to the buyer have disclosed he was buying this can for $100 and selling it for $5000 to someone on another floor?

Where do you draw the line?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

We form opinions out of our experiences. I was in the automotive industry for 22 years dealing with exotic cars. I've worked with every major exotic.

On a side note, there is a direct parallel to pressing in the automotive industry.

I grew up in the car industry and have reiterated this story many times.

When a car comes in with a dent, a shop called a paintless dent removal guy to repair the dent. When he was done it was an invisible repair and never declared after the fact.

The value of the vehicle increased and the work is mostly undetectable.

Just Google paintless dent removal if you've never heard about it (although most probably have by now - this was back in the 90's)

Should it be declared? Does that make dent removal guys evil?

Where is the line drawn as to what you to have declared? Do I declare when I polish a scratch out? A small dent? A 'big' dent?

Obviously, cars that were written off or in structural wrecks need to be declared (at least where I live it is law) which I agree with and is understandable, but that would be akin to a comic being RESTORED to having the restoration declared as opposed to having dents pressed out.

So it's not without precedent.

Is it the same for collectible cars? I don't know. But I don't think anyone cares as much about a dent being removed as they do with a fender being replaced.

Edited July 25, 2019 by VintageComics

[paperheart]

here's the song that comes to mind when reading this thread:

 

Edited July 25, 2019 by paperheart

[Randall Dowling]

12 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

No matter how many times people want to compare the two, trimming and pressing are not now, nor will they ever be, the same thing or comparable in any way.

FWIW RMA, I wasn’t suggesting that the two interventions are at all comparable.  What I think we both know, is that not being able to detect 100% of the time, is a common argument  for non-disclosure.  And if that’s the standard, then it should apply to all other interventions.  But it doesn’t.  And I don’t think it’s really that cynical to think that the current stance on disclosure is driven by money.  

I could be wrong, but I think our positions aren’t as far apart as it may seem.  Except, you’re probably joking about fixing those Cole Schave books with more pressing.  Right??

[VintageComics]

32 minutes ago, namisgr said:

1.  Steve Geppi discovered the Pennsylvania pedigree.  If instead you meant the Massachusetts pedigree that Marnin brought to market back in the early

Sorry, my mistake. Yes I KNEW and meant the Mass. Ped.

33 minutes ago, namisgr said:

2.  Where has anybody claimed that pressing is new?  Or that it was devised by CGC?  You've just made these things up out of nowhere.

Please don't accuse me of making things up. Why on earth would people like Bedrock have chimed in with the info that Marnin and Greg pressed books in the 90's BEFORE CGC if someone didn't first come up with the post that it was all CGC's fault.

You may not believe it was CGC's fault but some people do. The conversation involves a very broad context with lots of people, but all people seem to care about is finding a hole in someone's post and pointing it out and miss the big picture.

Pressing has been around in various forms for as long as there have been wrinkles and has increased in incidence as the market has increased but it was never secret or evil until big dollars came to play.

As the dollar amounts increased, so did incidence of pressing but so also did it's opposition.

37 minutes ago, namisgr said:

3.  It's misleading to imply that there were lots of pressed comics in the hobby prior to the advent of CGC.  You know as well as I do that today there are a hundred people pressing comics for every person who was doing so 25 years ago, and as a consequence there are thousands of times more pressed comics in the marketplace now than there used to be 25 years ago.  It's become a literal cottage industry.

I didn't imply it. See my above post. It's more than a cottage industry. It's a REAL industry, full on with no end in sight.

But like all things (including collecting) it starts small and grows, and as the money increases, so does the interest.

38 minutes ago, namisgr said:

4.  The fact is, there are so many pressed comics in the market today that it's become virtually impossible for a collector of high grade Silver Age books to amass a collection of runs of unpressed books.  And that takes away an option away from today's collector who prefers to own and collect unpressed comics over pressed ones.

Hobbies change over time.

in the 1930's there were readers and people who used books as insulation and firewood. That evolved into collectors. That evolved into a myriad of types of collecting. Too many to label.

If you are a collector of virgin books and want unpressed books, they are available. They're usually the ones going for record dollars in grade in auctions because of the potential to upgrade (disclaimer, I hardly ever bid in auctions but i do see them).

There's a board member from Montreal who collects unpressed books (as much as he can within reasonable limits). He doesn't like pressing so he reserves his dollars and search time for unpressed books.

So it's a different type of research, a different type of collecting but it's still an evolution of collecting.

As in anything, you are going to pay a premium for the virgin copy the way in the past someone would step up and pay a premium for a cherry copy of a particular book.

So there are options.

 

[James J Johnson]

37 minutes ago, comicwiz said:

That's what's kind of surprising about this all. You supposedly know what's going on in sportscards, and recognize it for the fraudulant activity it is. You are the grand puba of knowledge, we are not worthy...

But you seem to not recognize it's a problem here, with all the anecdotal examples and information that's been shared about the goings on. You realize the common thread here is protecting people from being rooked, but you still need to mischaracterize me as having an axe to grind.

That's your right, but it certainly calls into question your motives and reasons for going on the bend and tirade you've been on, not only towards me either, but others as well who have spoken succinctly on the problems that exist.

"Tirade"?

"grand poobah"?

"My motives"?

You should be  a prosecutor. You'd already know everyone's motives before there was an investigation! Save everybody time, everybody involved can go home early.

Nobody is questioning that you know more about everything than anyone else on earth. An expert on every facet of every subject and those of us that seek your advice on all, will benefit like no others. That would not only be foolish for anyone to deny that but also call into question their motives for denying that. Or something like that? Is that right?

Fact of the matter is that if you're wrong about the spelling of "puba", Spell check gave you "puba"? If you're wrong about that, you may be wrong about something else as well, though I suspect you would never consider that possible.

I'll just stay out of the way. You run the one man show. The tour-de-force undaunted and unfettered by common sense.. It'll save me time and make your bash-a-thon run a bit smoother for you..