If Wolverine appeared in 2 panels of Hulk 180, then would it be his first appearance? 3 3

[HuddyBee]

Just now, kav said:

Right.  Unless they are some weird character where their hand is their head-

Of course...  

How could I forget?

[Elliott Bennett]

Another interesting wrench for this question is creator input, Keith Giffen went out of his way to tell me when signing Omega Men #3, that it IS NOT Lobos first appearance even though it’s widely recognized as such

[jokiing]

7 minutes ago, kav said:

Right.  Unless they are some weird character where their hand is their head-

Gotta hand it to you, you nailed it with your insight.

[James J Johnson]

2 hours ago, Chuck Gower said:

I'm aware of some of the stories of shadier aspects of how he sometimes did things, but much of the information he used, he got directly from dealers.

And I don't know if you've ever read an early Overstreet, but the amount of price difference between an issue was sometimes as little as ten cents. And there are plenty of things that aren't broken out early on, that Overstreet or anyone else couldn't foresee.

He didn't CREATE the idea that Wolverine would grow in popularity and be sought out in that issue... really it was just another issue originally. But dealers saw demand, they spoke and sometimes even wrote about it for the guide and then it became a part of it. And the book people wanted was #181.

I'm not suggesting anything shady at all. Overstreet was the one whose price guide set the values in order that is still very much in effect today! AF 15 and FF 1 are the most valuable Marvel SA issues, closely followed by Hulk 1, JIM 83 TOS 39, etc., and the second of each issue is worth an approx. certain % of the first, and so on and so on. And Action 1 is the most valuable comic, sometimes replaced poll-wise by a Tec 27, and so forth. This type of value logic flies in the face of convention, making it quite an accomplishment. Other collectibles were mostly value based upon rarity. Of there's only one of something it's worth, say a million dollars, if two of something, then each is worth maybe half a mil, and so forth, as in coins, stamps, and other collectibles of the day. Of course the demand for comics 50 years ago was nothing compared to what it is today, the supply far outweighing demand even for the rarer pieces.

[kav]

1 minute ago, jokiing said:

Gotta hand it to you, you nailed it with your insight.

Yep keep your EYE on me    

[James J Johnson]

3 hours ago, Chuck Gower said:

So ultimately it works like this:

#180 is Wolverine's first appearance.

#181 is his first full story.

Market demand was determined a long time ago.

Darkseid's first appearance wasn't in mainstream demand until well into the speculation era, so the rules changed. People saw JO134 as the book to chase.

And the amazing fact to consider is that Hulk 180, 181, and 182 are no less common than Hulk 179 and 183, which are $20 books in what I would call collectible condition (VF).

[kav]

1 minute ago, James J Johnson said:

And the amazing fact to consider is that Hulk 180, 181, and 182 are no less common than Hulk 179 and 183, which are $20 books in what I would call collectible condition (VF).

In the factors that effect collectability:
Rarity
Demand
Significance
Condition

Any one of the 4 factors can trump one of the others.

Demand outweighs rarity, in this case.

[Lazyboy]

58 minutes ago, HuddyBee said:

Here's an example with Spiderman 298 compared with 299.

Oh, so now a full upper body panel and a face panel don't count if they aren't "lit" properly? And, since that's Venom, how do you know the symbiote hadn't just altered its appearance to full black for that panel?

[Prince Namor]

3 hours ago, James J Johnson said:

I'm not suggesting anything shady at all. Overstreet was the one whose price guide set the values in order that is still very much in effect today! AF 15 and FF 1 are the most valuable Marvel SA issues, closely followed by Hulk 1, JIM 83 TOS 39, etc., and the second of each issue is worth an approx. certain % of the first, and so on and so on. And Action 1 is the most valuable comic, sometimes replaced poll-wise by a Tec 27, and so forth. This type of value logic flies in the face of convention, making it quite an accomplishment. Other collectibles were mostly value based upon rarity. Of there's only one of something it's worth, say a million dollars, if two of something, then each is worth maybe half a mil, and so forth, as in coins, stamps, and other collectibles of the day. Of course the demand for comics 50 years ago was nothing compared to what it is today, the supply far outweighing demand even for the rarer pieces.

Not sure what your point has become.

Hulk #181 became more valuable because that's the book people wanted. It WASN'T because it was Wolverine's first appearance. It was because it was his first story, and that's how people collected back then. Overstreet didn't make it that way, that's just what dealers sold.

[Coverless 9.8]

3 hours ago, jokiing said:

Gotta hand it to you, you nailed it with your insight.

Is that where Pan's Labyrinth got the inspiration?! 

Edited November 26, 2019 by Coverless 9.8
Addition of image

[Coverless 9.8]

4 hours ago, kav said:

Right.  Unless they are some weird character where their hand is their head-

Dad always told me to look someone in the eye, especially when shaking their hand! 

[Coverless 9.8]

It's fine to discuss, but if you're still dissatisfied that your reasoning isn't what prevails in the marketplace, then realize it's no different than CGC.  It may be as arbitrary as a grader having a bad day!  Realizing that won't change the grade, but resubmitting, and perhaps a pressing, might! 

Edited November 26, 2019 by Coverless 9.8
Correction

[James J Johnson]

1 hour ago, Chuck Gower said:

Not sure what your point has become.

Hulk #181 became more valuable because that's the book people wanted. It WASN'T because it was Wolverine's first appearance. It was because it was his first story, and that's how people collected back then. Overstreet didn't make it that way, that's just what dealers sold.

Agreed. As in the case someone cited: Darkseid and JO 134.

[theCapraAegagrus]

Where did you get the idea of posting a topic that's been beaten to death?

[HuddyBee]

16 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

Oh, so now a full upper body panel and a face panel don't count if they aren't "lit" properly? And, since that's Venom, how do you know the symbiote hadn't just altered its appearance to full black for that panel?

1. The shadow we saw was obviously Eddie Brock, the only Venom (Eddie and Symbiote together) was the fist at the end. I really don't see the point of trying to argue that he was black because he was venom (other than to just be a pain). He was in shadow, and I think most people understand that.

2. Appear - "come into sight; become visible or noticeable, typically without visible agent or apparent cause" If he isn't lit properly he hasn't appeared, as he isn't visible or able to be seen. Once again a shadow isn't reflective of a character, nor is a hand or a leg. 

Edited November 26, 2019 by HuddyBee

[comicginger1789]

This was covered rather exhaustingly a while back....some comic collecting ginger initiated it....

Anyways, here is my thought on it and I cannot be swayed. Hulk #180 is his first appearance. We see Wolverine, it is a full shot, it is part of the main story which is to continue, we know what to call him. Hulk #181 is his first full appearance. He appears throughout the issue and is integral to the entire story. The cut off for a first appearance for me is less than 5 panels. Above that and for me, it is a first full appearance. A character can have a first appearance and a first full appearance in my eyes.

Now, as for valuing Hulk 180 and 181. You cannot convince me that Hulk #180 should be more valuable. The cover of #181 is the best. It is awesome, a true battle cover at its finest. The reds, greens and yellows pop and define the core of the Bronze Age IMO. 

I also discussed ad and prototype appearances too in the prior thread. Neat but for me, they should also not be valued higher than first and first full appearances. 

[comicginger1789]

Suppose Spider-Man appeared in Amazing Fantasy 14, at the end like Wolverine (maybe he is busting onto the scene to stop a crime, and then in Amazing Fantasy 15, we get his full backstory, origin and why he was all of a sudden in our world as a superhero). You cannot tell me that this cover

 

would ever get more love than this?

It would get some love, sure. Just like Hulk #180 gets some love. But not the love the cover and first full appearance gets.

[comicginger1789]

Conspiracy theory...Peter Parker is on the cover of AF 14.

[Prince Namor]

5 hours ago, comicginger1789 said:

Suppose Spider-Man appeared in Amazing Fantasy 14, at the end like Wolverine (maybe he is busting onto the scene to stop a crime, and then in Amazing Fantasy 15, we get his full backstory, origin and why he was all of a sudden in our world as a superhero). You cannot tell me that this cover

 

would ever get more love than this?

It would get some love, sure. Just like Hulk #180 gets some love. But not the love the cover and first full appearance gets.

That’s not why #181 is more valuable than #180. 
The far, far majority of collectors didn’t think like that back then. We collected to complete a run or for something we wanted to READ. 
The idea of collecting a comic just because a cover was cool wouldn’t be a thing for another 20 years. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

There are no "first appearances" in "Previews" or other ads/marketing material designed to promote interest in upcoming publications. That's not how comics work. 

If a publication contains original sequential art that isn't intended to appear elsewhere, that's the exception. Otherwise, ads don't count.

How do we know? 50+ years of collecting tradition.