If Wolverine appeared in 2 panels of Hulk 180, then would it be his first appearance? 3 3

[Lazyboy]

7 hours ago, HuddyBee said:

1. The shadow we saw was obviously Eddie Brock, the only Venom (Eddie and Symbiote together) was the fist at the end.

Inaccurate, since Venom was always together since Eddie found the symbiote, regardless of how the symbiote was altering Venom's appearance at any given time.

7 hours ago, HuddyBee said:

I really don't see the point of trying to argue that he was black because he was venom (other than to just be a pain). He was in shadow, and I think most people understand that.

Yes, that was somewhat less than 100% serious on my part. But shadowy figures are still visible even if they aren't necessarily identifiable.

[Logan510]

20 hours ago, jokiing said:

Funny that I found my #11 (1981-1982) Overstreet Guide today and first thing I did was look up IH  180/181/182 ...  Sharing along with #12 (1982-1983) and #48 (2018-2019)

 

That Overstreet from 1981-82 certainly doesn't reflect what was going on at the 3 LCS's I frequented back then 

[HuddyBee]

52 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

But shadowy figures are still visible even if they aren't necessarily identifiable.

It still comes down to how a character is represented for me (personally) to identify an appearance. If a shadow, or a poorly lit figure, or any various appendage doesn't necessarily represent a character in my mind, I would consider that a cameo.

[Prince Namor]

2 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

There are no "first appearances" in "Previews" or other ads/marketing material designed to promote interest in upcoming publications. That's not how comics work. 

If a publication contains original sequential art that isn't intended to appear elsewhere, that's the exception. Otherwise, ads don't count.

How do we know? 50+ years of collecting tradition.

It’s the very definition of a created collectible. Someone newer to the hobby isn’t going to make quick money off a long term key, so they start picking up a pre-release Previews or Marvel Age or Direct Currents or whatever and then start a rumor about a first appearance, hoping to rope some less knowledgeable buyers into spending goofy money for garbage. 

[Beige]

1 hour ago, Chuck Gower said:

It’s the very definition of a created collectible. Someone newer to the hobby isn’t going to make quick money off a long term key, so they start picking up a pre-release Previews or Marvel Age or Direct Currents or whatever and then start a rumor about a first appearance, hoping to rope some less knowledgeable buyers into spending goofy money for garbage. 

So where do you sit on a FCBD issue?

I was specifically thinking 'The Umbrella academy' - I don't know why, and CGC has notated it as 1st app, but I just can't pull the trigger.

Another one I had a problem with is 'out of comic continuity'

Rocket Raccoon - Marvel Preview #7 was notated, and then Hulk #271 'in comic continuity' (or similar) - I ended up getting both. 

You clearly see Rocket in MP #7 - but 4 or 5 panels only

 

[Prince Namor]

11 minutes ago, Beige said:

So where do you sit on a FCBD issue?

I was specifically thinking 'The Umbrella academy' - I don't know why, and CGC has notated it as 1st app, but I just can't pull the trigger.

Another one I had a problem with is 'out of comic continuity'

Rocket Raccoon - Marvel Preview #7 was notated, and then Hulk #271 'in comic continuity' (or similar) - I ended up getting both. 

You clearly see Rocket in MP #7 - but 4 or 5 panels only

 

The problem with any modern discovery of a character who’s appeal is escalated by a movie appearance is that people will try to milk every penny out of it they can. 

[MGsimba77]

On 11/25/2019 at 6:12 PM, Readcomix said:

On 11/25/2019 at 4:44 PM, kav said:

Yes the point of this thread is a bit different-like what number of panels would convert over to full appearance.

Or maybe the real question is the significance of the brief appearance? Wolverine has one cool-looking "here I am" panel, but for all you know from that, Hulk backhands him next issue, never to be seen again. Without 181, you just don't know.

Darkseid is just a head on a screen in one panel, but whatever exactly he says (can't recall without digging it out) he's clearly the new bad@ss mastermind not to be trifled with. Not much of a look at him, but we get the idea about him.

Just trying to dig us a new rabbit hole in familiar soil; don't much care either way. But it makes some sense, no?

Well in the beginning of 180 the term "Weapon X" is referred to as a possibility to deal with Hulk. They refer to Wolverine in the last page as weapon x and clearly make a big thing of the character in large lettering at the bottom. So I don't know that its just simply one panel insignificant to the story. It wouldn't have made any sense at all to have him be backhanded and done away with quickly.

Just my view but I think there can be a distinction between 1st cameo and 1st full. 180 is the first time the world layed eyes on him so its first cameo but it can't be a full appearance since just one panel. He's on 2 panels on 182 (one head shot one full body) and still considered a cameo so maybe the magic number is 3 or 4? The most important authority on how distinctions are made may be CGC since their labeling decisions will move the market.

Anyway, the king of vague first appearances is Venom. There's Web of spider-man 15 (Peter being shoved from behind) then 24 (black arm from the apartment pulling Peter's ankle trying to get him to fall) or Comics Scene #2 that previewed ASM 299, 300 with clear Venom depictions or last page of ASM 298, 299 or ASM 252...so on...and so on...

Marvel decided to make that as vague as possible so it'll be a dead horse that'll keep getting beaten forever

[Prince Namor]

8 hours ago, MGsimba77 said:

Marvel decided to make that as vague as possible so it'll be a dead horse that'll keep getting beaten forever

Marvel was being as vague as possible because Spider-man had a long history of 'mystery villains' either slowly being revealed or unmasked or returning from the shadows. There was no understanding as to how it would be taken in the aftermarket some 25+ years later.

Those books for most of their existence just didn't even register on anyone's collectibility list in relation to Venom, even from the fans of the character. All of this Web of Spider-man 15, Comics Scene, etc. bit has come about over the last 5 years or so.

[comicginger1789]

If its not a comic, it is not a first appearance to me. 

Is it neat? Sure. Am I going to pay tons of money or even go out hunting for these fanzines or preview mags or whatever they are? No. Not this collector anyway. 

If you are paying $100 or even $1000 for a picture of Harley Quinn in a kid's book, you crazy. Not a comic, not related. Can you imagine how much someone would pay for a photo of someone back on September 11th, 1992 that snapped a pic of their TV screen on that day Harley first appeared!?!? Ridiculous. 

But that is one crusty not-so-old collectors opinion. 

[comicginger1789]

14 hours ago, Chuck Gower said:

The problem with any modern discovery of a character who’s appeal is escalated by a movie appearance is that people will try to milk every penny out of it they can. 

I love this issue for the Satana cover...not at all for Rocky Raccoon. 

[comicginger1789]

17 hours ago, Logan510 said:

That Overstreet from 1981-82 certainly doesn't reflect what was going on at the 3 LCS's I frequented back then 

Now this is interesting! Would suggest that over time, people definitely gravitated towards the cover. See, I have always been someone who picks up random books with cool covers and I guess this trend was not around in the early days of collecting. Perhaps for some but not en mass like it is today. 

[Krismusic]

On 11/25/2019 at 4:09 PM, kav said:

The logic has always been "well he only appears in one panel so it's a cameo".  Ok what about 2 panels?  3? 6?  2 pages?  What's the cutoff point?

I am guessing kav might have fallen into a few hulk 180's and trying to drive the price up 

just kidding... he's probably spending money on those woodgod books.. 

[Krismusic]

to be honest this one I think will be debated for quite a while now.. some will consider his first app as 180 some will consider it a cameo look at the example that logan510 showed that OS changed from 180 being first to 180 being a cameo and 181 full first app. this shows things changed etc.. 

[NoMan]

19 hours ago, Logan510 said:

That Overstreet from 1981-82 certainly doesn't reflect what was going on at the 3 LCS's I frequented back then 

thanks for posting this. Very interesting.

[MR SigS]

I feel a Cameo is a brief appearance of an already established character, like Spider-Man in FF Annual #3; Likely everyone reading the issue for the first time knew who he was. Wolverine was in just one panel of 180, but the reader didn't know who he was because he'd never appeared in a story before this issue, making it a first appearance- Any description other than "first" is irrelevant IMO

Some are very lame, like Darkseid, and if Forever People becomes the book to have because it's a better appearance, then that's that- But it doesn't change that Darkseid appeared in JO134 first.

Sometimes it seems the problem is people feel that admitting Hulk 180 and others like it as being the 1st appearance means the value of their 181 (and others) will drop. Why would it when placing the higher value on a 1st app is not a rule that we must follow? And if one day covers become less important than context, causing 180 to become the book to have, so be it- The Market will have decided, but only to the value because that's all the Market can decide.

That's how I see it, fwiw

Edited December 2, 2019 by MR SigS
Content isn't right- Should be "context"

[bababooey]

57 minutes ago, MR SigS said:

I feel a Cameo is a brief appearance of an already established character, <snip>

While that may be the technically correct use, that's not how the hobby has used the word "cameo" for decades.

[Lazyboy]

52 minutes ago, bababooey said:

While that may be the technically correct use, that's not how the hobby has used the word "cameo" for decades.

It was misused for far too long, but that started changing many years ago.

[mrc]

I agree with CGC on this one. Hulk 180, Wolverine first appearance but not involved in story so cameo. Hulk 181 Wolverine first full appearance.

[Prince Namor]

5 hours ago, comicginger1789 said:

I love this issue for the Satana cover...not at all for Rocky Raccoon. 

For sure! Sucks that it’s now priced so high. 

[Lazyboy]

1 hour ago, MR SigS said:

And if one day covers become less important than content, causing 180 to become the book to have, so be it

Even if covers somehow become irrelevant to demand, 181 will still have Wolverine throughout the book and relevant to the story, while 180 will still be only the single panel teaser. That is the reality of the content and why 181 has been the bigger book basically since people started caring about Wolverine.

3 hours ago, MR SigS said:

Any description other than "first" is irrelevant IMO

That's inaccurate because appearances (first or otherwise) are not all equal.