If Wolverine appeared in 2 panels of Hulk 180, then would it be his first appearance? 3 3

[serling1978]

16 minutes ago, Poekaymon said:

Aka, H180 owner's thread.  Lucky for me I have one of each.

Ditto. That's the answer. Own both 180 and 181 and you come out on top either way. 

[comicginger1789]

I have no problem with first appearances versus first full appearances. Lots of books fit that bill.

Avengers 195 is first Taskmaster. He appears on last page. But by today’s standards, plain cover so little love. Plus in 196, he is on the cover looking great.

ASM 298 but more so 299 show Venom last pages. Once again by today’s standard, ho him covers compared to 300.

Hulk is one of the first and earliest example I can think of with a major character where they first appear in the final pages. And then next issue, a prominent cover. You have to understand that the love for that cover has driven the desire. Same as it once did for Conan 24 (although that had to change because she appears a TON in 23). I’m not saying the market will ever correct itself and I’m not saying the terminology (not a fan of the term cameo) is the best. But I think changing it is useless. 
 

I mean I don’t care for Wolverine at all but I go back to my example...suppose that Spidey debuted in the same fashion in AF 14 and that book had the cover it does. My desire to own that book would pale in comparison to AF 15 still.

[comicginger1789]

Now as a fan of Wolverine, should there still be desire for Hulk 180? Absolutely! At what fraction of the cost? Well I don’t know what’s fair but the market will decide. 
 

And hey if at some point people can swing collectors towards 180 instead, I will happily buy a Hulk 181 at a lower price:)

[sfcityduck]

44 minutes ago, comicginger1789 said:

Now as a fan of Wolverine, should there still be desire for Hulk 180? Absolutely! At what fraction of the cost? Well I don’t know what’s fair but the market will decide. 

The debate is not about which comic is the first appearance of Wolverine 180 clearly is.  After all, he appears in a big panel saying "here I am!," not on a screen in the background or lurking in shadows:

And, more importantly, we learn a lot about his backstory before that panel, including his "Weapon X" codename, a huge clue that he is a mutant!:

No.  The debate between 180 and 181 is about one thing:  What matters more, the cover or the interior?  And its clear that the answer these days is that the cover is often going to win.  After all, why else would Action 7 be worth more than Action 2?  It has nothing to do with order of appearances.  Anyone who says Hulk 181 is a first appearance, or even uses the marketing term "first full appearance" is engaging in serious puffery.

 

Edited May 3, 2021 by sfcityduck

[ExNihilo]

1 hour ago, Poekaymon said:

Aka, H180 owner's thread.  Lucky for me I have one of each.

I went so far as to buy 182 as well just because you never know what the future market might decide.  Maybe the Wolverine in 181 is a clone and the REAL one shows up in 182.  Or maybe it was an early skrull?  Or maybe I just like the number 182 because my favorite band in high school was Sum 41...no wait, that last part didn't make any sense.

[comicginger1789]

1 hour ago, ExNihilo said:

I went so far as to buy 182 as well just because you never know what the future market might decide.  Maybe the Wolverine in 181 is a clone and the REAL one shows up in 182.  Or maybe it was an early skrull?  Or maybe I just like the number 182 because my favorite band in high school was Sum 41...no wait, that last part didn't make any sense.

Don’t get in too deep...you might get a Fat lip!

[comicginger1789]

1 hour ago, sfcityduck said:

The debate is not about which comic is the first appearance of Wolverine 180 clearly is.  After all, he appears in a big panel saying "here I am!," not on a screen in the background or lurking in shadows:

And, more importantly, we learn a lot about his backstory before that panel, including his "Weapon X" codename, a huge clue that he is a mutant!:

No.  The debate between 180 and 181 is about one thing:  What matters more, the cover or the interior?  And its clear that the answer these days is that the cover is often going to win.  After all, why else would Action 7 be worth more than Action 2?  It has nothing to do with order of appearances.  Anyone who says Hulk 181 is a first appearance, or even uses the marketing term "first full appearance" is engaging in serious puffery.

 

If we call it a first cover appearance does that appease you:) that and the newfound importance of cover versus interior. Because really, 181 just displays so much better.

[sfcityduck]

2 minutes ago, comicginger1789 said:

If we call it a first cover appearance does that appease you:) that and the newfound importance of cover versus interior. Because really, 181 just displays so much better.

You can call it what you want, but its not a first appearance.  It's just a more desirable issue.  

[kav]

10 hours ago, Gatsby77 said:

Example: I'm glad Conan # 23 is (finally!) acknowledged as the first appearance of Red Sonja, whereas # 24 (her first cover appearance) was considered her first appearance for decades.

 

Gil Kane has screwed me!  Back when I was buying multiples of 24 for $15 and all the barry smith issues i ignored 23 because I thought it was Gil kane interior.  Ebay never mentioned it as first RS app so i ignored it.  

[ExNihilo]

10 minutes ago, kav said:

Gil Kane has screwed me!  Back when I was buying multiples of 24 for $15 and all the barry smith issues i ignored 23 because I thought it was Gil kane interior.  Ebay never mentioned it as first RS app so i ignored it.  

So where does this leave us with the 1st Gambit?

[kav]

2 minutes ago, ExNihilo said:

So where does this leave us with the 1st Gambit?

my gambit to stock up on first red sonja.....has failed-

[Lazyboy]

2 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

And, more importantly, we learn a lot about his backstory before that panel,

2 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

including his "Weapon X" codename, a huge clue that he is a mutant!:

What does the number 10 have to do with mutants?

[ExNihilo]

18 minutes ago, kav said:

my gambit to stock up on first red sonja.....has failed-

...has failed...so far.

Tomorrow's a brand new day...to fail again.  

[kav]

2 minutes ago, ExNihilo said:

...has failed...so far.

Tomorrow's a brand new day...to fail again.  

[bababooey]

46 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

Quote

including his "Weapon X" codename, a huge clue that he is a mutant!:

What does the number 10 have to do with mutants?

Whatever it got retconned into (Weapon X as part of Weapon Plus dating back to super soldiers, Cap as first and whatever else) the Marvel wiki seems to support the fact that Weapon X was even retconned as "mutant" specific. 

I don't know when there's a specific first mention that the 'X' is a roman numeral.  I don't recall it from any of the Byrne X-men run since that was all prior to Wolverine having an origin, assuming we agree that MCP 72-84 stuff was the first Wolverine origin. 

Edited May 4, 2021 by bababooey
Clarity & italics

[Gatsby77]

1 hour ago, kav said:

Gil Kane has screwed me!  Back when I was buying multiples of 24 for $15 and all the barry smith issues i ignored 23 because I thought it was Gil kane interior.  Ebay never mentioned it as first RS app so i ignored it.  

Right? I think BWS drew interiors for all but 17-18, but Kane did a few more of the covers.

[1950's war comics]

Hulk 180 going for crazy money now ,,even in 6.0 

so everybody wins, the 180 crowd and the 181 crowd

[HotKey]

On 11/25/2019 at 6:43 PM, Logan510 said:

How about a new thread on the difference between a 9.8 and a 9.6 or one about a bad eBay transaction?

Both solid contenders but I think "my book is delivered why isn't CGC showing it" gets the slight edge.

[rfhbv100]

Although I don't own issue 180, I find it much more valuable. In principle, I find the first cameos more valuable than the first full appearance. Why? Because it was during the cameo that the reader first reacted to the new character and thought: "wow! New character! Who is he?" Therefore, I consider the first cameos to be more historically important. But this only applies to full-fledged cameos. I mean, some first cameo of Crossbones in the shadows...well, it's just mess, not a cameo. Although it's probably strange to hear from me that 180 is more valuable, considering that I sold it and bought 181 (in fact, I just like the cover better)

[rfhbv100]

 

By the way, I just noticed that due to the 180th issue, this topic turned into another discussion of "Hulk 180 VS Hulk 181"