The Distribution of US Published Comics in the UK (1959~1982) 15 15

[Malacoda]

On 3/6/2023 at 11:11 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

Do you really think so? Wouldn't £120 have made your vendor delighted?

It does make you wonder what the process is. Can they really have come within a whisker of offering a comic worth tens of thousands for £120 without either them or the seller realising?

[Albert Tatlock]

On 3/7/2023 at 3:22 AM, Malacoda said:

It does make you wonder what the process is. Can they really have come within a whisker of offering a comic worth tens of thousands for £120 without either them or the seller realising?

Reply from another auction condition report...........

 

Good morning,

 

Thank you for your enquiry.

 

Avengers No. 3 has light creasing across the covers, a few marks, a neat contemporary owner inscription on rear cover, contents seem good throughout with a small nick to one page edge, a few marks to final page. Unfortunately, I'm unable to grade the comics, and so, as stated in the catalogue entry, this lot is sold with all faults.

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Kind regards,

 

 

Jim Spencer BA (Hons)

Associate Director, Head of Books & Works on Paper

 

Good job it came to the attention of the Head of Books & Works on Paper, and not to a mere underling.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Albert Tatlock
add 1 line

[Albert Tatlock]

On 3/7/2023 at 3:22 AM, Malacoda said:

It does make you wonder what the process is. Can they really have come within a whisker of offering a comic worth tens of thousands for £120 without either them or the seller realising?

We are the poor relations of collectables as far as the auction houses, especially the snootier ones, are concerned.

Many times I have tried to get more information on jumbled up lots, only to be met with indifference.

Sometimes it is an uphill struggle to find out how many comics are in a lot. 'A quantity' seems to be their elastic term of choice.

 

[Malacoda]

On 3/7/2023 at 3:29 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

We are the poor relations of collectables as far as the auction houses, especially the snootier ones, are concerned.

Many times I have tried to get more information on jumbled up lots, only to be met with indifference.

Although we should probably count our blessings.  I've had a couple of one-in-a-lifetime moments because someone just wanted to get shot of 'a load of old children's comics'.  From the perspective of accurate grading it would be great if they knew what they were doing, but from the perspective of getting a grail for a song, that's only going to happen in a world of snooty ignorance. 

[Malacoda]

Here's something I would love to know: 

DC distributed across the US and then sent returns to T&P. They may have sent returns from retailers, returns from wholesalers (there may practically be no difference) or leftovers from the original print runs. We don't know. 

With Marvel, comics (usually bespoke printed PV's) were sent straight from the presses to the docks  However, the DC comics sent to T&P were second distribution returns from the US distribution network.  WCP (Sparta) was a printer, not a distributor, but they dominated the market by having a highly sophisticated distribution system for first delivery to wholesalers.  They did not, however, own any of the comics they produced. These were in effect owned by the distributors on a sale or return basis. As far as we know, none of the publishers had what we would now call implants at Sparta. If comics were returned there at all, it was for pulping, not for redistribution, but as Sparta didn't (to my knowledge) manufacture paper, the returns would have gone to paper mills for re-pulping. 

So...

If we know anecdotally that comics coming back from retailers were partial (just covers, later parts of covers and still later nothing returned, just done on trust) then where did the returns that went to T&P come from?  (We have speculated they were returns from wholesalers, not retailers).

But also....where did they go to? 

There must have been a team re-sorting the tens of thousands of returns into sensibly mixed bundles for export to the UK. If they had just randomly sent the first 200,000 (or whatever number) comics that came back, then every month T&P would have received tens of thousands of copies of each of the titles whose shelf life expired first and zero of the rest of that month's titles.  They would have to have been sorted into a saleable mix of titles, with T&P presumably clamouring for the more saleable ones to dominate the shipment.  Where was all this re-sorting going on? 

Anyone?

Anyone?

Bueller?  

[Albert Tatlock]

On 3/8/2023 at 3:25 PM, Malacoda said:

If we know anecdotally that comics coming back from retailers were partial (just covers, later parts of covers and still later nothing returned, just done on trust) then where did the returns that went to T&P come from?  (We have speculated they were returns from wholesalers, not retailers).

At least some had been through the retail chain, as we know from arrival dates frequently found on surviving stamped T & P copies. No wholesaler would have done that, it must have been individual retailers, as the style of dates applied varies so much (pen, pencil, crayon, rubber stamp, etc) and are to be found in different positions on front or back cover.

Edited March 8, 2023 by Albert Tatlock
correct typo

[Malacoda]

On 3/8/2023 at 4:41 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

At least some had been through the retail chain, as we know from arrival dates frequently found on surviving stamped T & P copies. No wholesaler would have done that, it must have been individual retailers, as the style of dates applied varies so much (pen, pencil, crayon, rubber stamp, etc) and are to be found in different positions on front or back cover.

I agree, that's probably correct and a very good point. Although personally, I've only seen dozens (maybe over a hundred) variations on the arrival dates and there are more than 100,000 towns and cities in America, so there could easily be thousands of local and regional wholesalers. Would you say that's enough to account for all the variation we've seen?  I tend to feel like if it were all the retailers, including the hundreds of thousands of newsstand vendors, we'd see a lot more, however it is only going to be the top copy of a bundle that get the arrival stamp, so it's hard to tell.  I'm not actually sure what the purpose of it was - unless the vendor actually kept the top copy to retain the date, but that doesn't seem likely (if they did, we wouldn't have them all, would we?)   

I assume in many cases the top copy was the first one put out and therefore the first one sold, so actually a disproportionately high number of them survive in circulation because they tended not to go back as returns.   

[Albert Tatlock]

On 3/8/2023 at 5:59 PM, Malacoda said:

I agree, that's probably correct and a very good point. Although personally, I've only seen dozens (maybe over a hundred) variations on the arrival dates and there are more than 100,000 towns and cities in America, so there could easily be thousands of local and regional wholesalers. Would you say that's enough to account for all the variation we've seen?  I tend to feel like if it were all the retailers, including the hundreds of thousands of newsstand vendors, we'd see a lot more, however it is only going to be the top copy of a bundle that get the arrival stamp, so it's hard to tell.  I'm not actually sure what the purpose of it was - unless the vendor actually kept the top copy to retain the date, but that doesn't seem likely (if they did, we wouldn't have them all, would we?)   

I assume in many cases the top copy was the first one put out and therefore the first one sold, so actually a disproportionately high number of them survive in circulation because they tended not to go back as returns.   

There would be little if any point marking the date on only one copy, especially if it were likely to be sold quickly. I reckon some news vendors would mark all their copies (easy enough if you have a junior assistant or a rubber stamp), so that they knew when a mag had outstayed its welcome and could be bundled up and returned.

The ones without arrival dates which subsequently crossed the Atlantic could have been among those distributed to retailers who did not bother to carry out that operation, or equally from stock which never left the warehouse. Probably we will never know, all the arrival dates tell us is that someone, somewhere, tried and failed to sell that particular issue in the US.

That applies only, of course, to UK stamped copies. There must be many with arrival dates that remained in the US with the original purchaser, including all pre-October 1959 issues.

We do know, from the published circulation figures, that a high percentage of the mags printed remained unsold.

[Albert Tatlock]

Here is an example, on the Blackhawk # 122.

Never visited these shores, as some kid fished out a dime and took it home.

[Malacoda]

On 3/8/2023 at 8:21 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

There would be little if any point marking the date on only one copy, especially if it were likely to be sold quickly. I reckon some news vendors would mark all their copies (easy enough if you have a junior assistant or a rubber stamp), so that they knew when a mag had outstayed its welcome and could be bundled up and returned.

I agree.  If it was just the top copy it would make more sense to me if it were the distributor, but then, to what purpose? Vendors stamping / marking them makes more sense, but then why are the vast majority of surviving comics unmarked if this was common / necessary / logical practice?  I guess it was just some did, some didn't.  On the plus side, from the normal perspective, it's great to have comics unspoilt, but from our perspective, it's pure gold when you find these.  But if it was necessary for some vendors to do it, then why was it so few of them? 

On 3/8/2023 at 8:21 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

The ones without arrival dates which subsequently crossed the Atlantic could have been among those distributed to retailers who did not bother to carry out that operation, or equally from stock which never left the warehouse. Probably we will never know, all the arrival dates tell us is that someone, somewhere, tried and failed to sell that particular issue in the US.

That applies only, of course, to UK stamped copies. There must be many with arrival dates that remained in the US with the original purchaser, including all pre-October 1959 issues.

Right, but I think (don't quote me on this) almost every example of a (presumed) retailer date stamp I've seen on a comic on sale in the UK has also not had a T&P stamp. There are a very few exceptions:  (of course) one of @Get Marwood & I 's Charltons which was originally on sale in the US in December 1958, so it clearly has a very atypical & unrepresentative history. 

This JIM annual 

 

Action 328 

 

 

This ASM is an odd one. 

 

I think all the rest of them I've seen are US copies that have floated over having been originally purchased in the US and then brought over by dealers / collectors.  The fact that I've only come across 3 of these in the many thousands of comics I've looked through, and when I do see a retailer stamp on a comic for sale in the UK it is almost invariably not one that passed under Ethel's fair hand, suggests to me that they're all US sold copies that came over later.  

There is another thing.  Despite the incredible scarcity of these stamps, I do seem to find examples on those comics for which I have repeatedly looked for T&P stamped issues.  This could just be a case of you-find-what-you look-for, but the fact that, try as I might, I have looked through hundreds or even thousands of examples of these comics on sale in the UK and I have never found a T&P stamp but I have found one or more of these super-rare retailer stamps, indicates to me that they were not imported causing dealers to bring over US copies which means these ND or LD issues have a higher propensity for the retailer stamps. 

Needless to say, @Garystar 's all time fave falls into this category. 

 

And my own favourite escapee. 

 

We'd need a ton more examples of these, but when, after having searched unsuccessfully a hundred times for a T&P imported comic, I am never surprised to come across one these retailer stamps.  I think there could be a correlation.  What do you reckon?

PS your point about the imports being a mix of returns from news vendors and never-left-the-warehouse jobbies would explain both the presence & scarcity of the retailer stamps. 

 

 

Edited March 9, 2023 by Malacoda

[Albert Tatlock]

On 3/9/2023 at 1:41 PM, Malacoda said:

We'd need a ton more examples of these, but when, after having searched unsuccessfully a hundred times for a T&P imported comic, I am never surprised to come across one these retailer stamps.  I think there could be a correlation

The Doc Strange # 179 was delivered to a US retailer on January 2, as the stamp shows, and bought by a customer.

What happened to it after that is unknown.

If it got to the UK, it has had several years to make the journey, and could have changed hands many times.

Maybe a British collector bought it by mail order from a dealer, here or in the States. Or at a convention, the possibilities are many.

We can be pretty sure that T & P were not involved, but not much else.

Good luck with unravelling this, but we do not have much firm material to go on.

[Malacoda]

On 3/10/2023 at 3:16 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

The Doc Strange # 179 was delivered to a US retailer on January 2, as the stamp shows, and bought by a customer.

What happened to it after that is unknown.

  LOL well actually we don't even know that for sure. It could have been returned by the dealer and found its way back out into the wild by some other method, like the ballast comics.   But I agree, the logical assumption is that it was bought from a retailer.

I don't think I'll be delving into the mystery of the retailer stamps any time soon.  Next up I'm going back to the summer of 71 and those pesky DC PV's and then it's going to be the Unified Field Theory of Stamping Numbers, but that's going to be like watching the entire MCU back to back.  But less fun. 

[Malacoda]

That said (and I think Steve has done some of this) it would be interesting to collect multiple date stamps for as many copies as possible (not that that would necessarily prove they were retailer rather than wholesaler).  According to Mike's, number 10 of the Surfer reached the beach on September 23rd and here he is....

but then this one made landfall two days later. 

 

 

 

 

[Garystar]

On 3/10/2023 at 6:32 PM, Malacoda said:

That said (and I think Steve has done some of this) it would be interesting to collect multiple date stamps for as many copies as possible (not that that would necessarily prove they were retailer rather than wholesaler).  According to Mike's, number 10 of the Surfer reached the beach on September 23rd and here he is....

but then this one made landfall two days later. 

 

 

 

 

As you pointed out I’m a fan of this issue so had to get mine early ….. 16 Sept;

[Garystar]

2 minutes in for glimpse of rare UKPV

https://youtu.be/REwskcXDAqQ
 

[Malacoda]

On 3/11/2023 at 8:13 AM, Garystar said:

As you pointed out I’m a fan of this issue so had to get mine early ….. 16 Sept;

And a whole week before the on sale date according to Mike, which proves nothing but arguably makes it look more like a stamp from somewhere in the wholesale chain than a retailer.  The funny thing is that according to Mike's dates, SS 7 - 18 are all approx dates (meaning he estimated from a variety of arcane sources),  whereas 10 is the only one of the later ones that he gives a firm date for (usually meaning he got a release date from an in house ad or similar source). 

As Doc Strange once said, comic collecting has no masters, only adventurers. 

[Malacoda]

On 3/11/2023 at 11:24 AM, Garystar said:

2 minutes in for glimpse of rare UKPV

And he's making a selling point of the 'super rare' UK price!  Thanks for posting this. 

[LowGradeBronze]

On 3/11/2023 at 4:47 PM, Malacoda said:

As Doc Strange once said, comic collecting has no masters, only adventurers. 

And just after that, if I'm not mistaken, he said 'izzy whizzy, let's get busy.....'

[Malacoda]

On 3/11/2023 at 9:41 PM, LowGradeBronze said:

And just after that, if I'm not mistaken, he said 'izzy whizzy, let's get busy.....'

That was his locum, Doctor Broom. 

[Malacoda]

Some interesting comics on the bay last week.  These are shilling stamped T&P's from the late 60's, re-stickered to new decimal prices and re-distributed later.  These are more of the seaside specials of which we've heard many times, but these came with one of most clearly delineated back stories I've heard so far.  These were bought from new by a farmer's son who couldn't get such comics in his neighbourhood, but used to buy these re-circulated ones when they visited the family holiday caravan at the seaside. The selection was always very random so he could never build any runs of anything.  They were displayed in a classic spinner rack in a literal beach side store on the coast at Heachum in Norfolk. I've encountered this tale of Marvels & DCs, particularly recycled ones, appearing at seaside locations many times and we've talked about it here on the south coast, the west country, Wales, in the Northern resorts and in Kent, but I think this is the first time I've heard the story from Norfolk, which kind of completes the picture (excluding Scotland).  Most interesting is the Cap #117 which was distributed, according to both Alan Austin and Duncan McAlpine, but I've never seen one until now.  The seller is certain that there is no possibility that it came from a comic shop or dealer later as none of his comics did, nor could have done.  Shame the sticker was peeled off. 

 

Edited March 14, 2023 by Malacoda