The Distribution of US Published Comics in the UK (1959~1982) 15 15

[Albert Tatlock]

On 4/17/2021 at 5:20 PM, Malacoda said:

Wow  Fair play.  I had seen Strato as HQ'd as Oadby.  Didn't look later.  I am chastened. 

Do you reckon the Upper Brook Street address, in the West End and therefore expensive, could have been used by T & P/Strato purely as an accommodation address?

If so, it would show up as such in a 1959 business directory for London.

[Malacoda]

What follows is a summation and some additional examples around our missing 1966 months and a new theory about why it happened.  If you feel done with this topic, then please move along. Nothing to see here. However, if you’re in the mood for a sit-down-with-the-Sundays type long read with a cup of tea, then get comfy. If you’re not up for a slog, please skip down to part 5.  The notes below refer to the super hero titles, but the Westerns & Romances do not upset the theory. 

[Malacoda]

The Missing 66’ers. Part One: The story so far.

• We know that in October – December 1966, a seemingly random cross section of Marvel comics were not imported.  This was not all titles in any month (unless some arrived afterwards). 
• 6 months later (anecdotally) these missing issues started turning up with an unfamiliar price stamp on them.  This is doubly mysterious as all the titles had been UKPV’s prior to this time (except the GS reprints which were stamped). 
• It seems that Marvel had some reason NOT to produce the UKPV’s, but nonetheless continued to export the comics to the UK. 
• This export reduction took the form not only of less titles, but also less copies. 
• Historically, this has been attributed to the dock strikes which took place in 1966.  

So what actually happened? 

Edited April 18, 2021 by Malacoda

[Malacoda]

The Missing 66’ers. Part Two: Sitting on the dock of the Bay?  

I used to be a fan of the dock strike argument because......well, OK, you're Marvel (or maybe you're T&P)  in 1966.  Your distribution to the UK was disrupted by dock strikes as recently as 1964 (there had been another strike in 65, which fizzled out due to lack of solidarity) so you know there's a chance that none of the UKPV's will get through. However, you also know that T&P are perfectly able to ink stamp cents copies. So what do you do?  Suspend production of the UKPV's and just print cents copies. If they end up never shipping, at least you can do something with them in the States. If they make it to T&P, great. If they don't, it's T&P's problem. You're then proved right as your Marvel comics don't make it ashore for umpteen months, by which time they're distressed inventory and the new issues (which can be unloaded) are sailing into the docks and T&P don't want the old ones. So you do a deal with your other UK distributor, Gold (who do the magazines, and are real wheeler-dealers) and get them to distribute the issues which have been on a tour of the Cape. Voila. 

Like yourselves, I now firmly believe that theory to be cobblers, not least because the strike couldn’t possibly have affected 3 months imports.  Let’s look at the strike….
 

[Malacoda]

The Missing 66’ers. Part Three: We Shall Not Be Moved?

What actually happened in the 1966 dock strike and when was it?

16th May – National Union of Seamen (don’t, we’re better than that) go on strike.

23rd May – Government declares a state of emergency granting itself powers to clear docks of strikers and use troops to do dock work.

29th May -  NUS return to work, partly due to comments about communist infiltration of the NUS and national security and partly due to getting better terms.  The thing about communist infiltrations sounds like the Daily Mail, but actually the Socialist Worker acknowledges it too. Part of the issue seems to be a split between militant left wingers who wanted a strike no matter what, and moderate unionists who did not want to bring down a Labour govt. A very left wing union pamphlet was being distributed which was written by John Prescott. Yes, you read that right. Old Two Jags was keeping the red flag flying in 66.  The National Union of Seamen was a good union to infiltrate because at any given moment, 90% of its members were at sea, so you could take over the quorum of a whole branch  of the Union just with a handful of dockworkers. 

So the dock strike lasted 13 days in May.  It was a surprise to everyone that it ended so fast. (“ A long drawn out, damaging struggle now faces the country” said the Guardian on the 24^th May and it was over 5 days later).  Mind you, it was still the longest official strike there had been since the war….little did they know what was coming.  During this period, the government arranged that all major shipping (including oil tankers) did not attempt to dock, so it doubtless caused a massive shockwave, which extended beyond its 13 days, but does it explain our missing Marvels?

Firstly, I don’t buy that it took 3 months to cross the Atlantic.  SAILING ships, powered by wind used to do it in 6 weeks. Steamships in the 19^th century did it in 15-16 days, by the 1860’s it was down to 8-9 days, in 1907, the Mauritania did it in 4.5 days and in 1952 the United States did it in 3.5 days.  (these are liners, not cargo ships, but 3 months is mental.  Christopher Columbus only took 2 months to do in the 15^th century, a round the world trip now takes 80 – 100 days and modern cargo vessels take 10-20 days to cross the Atlantic).   

I think the shipping timeline for Marvels probably goes something like e.g.  Avengers #28

Release date: 10th March 1966

Processing & shipping in the US, delivery to docks: 17^th March

Journey to UK:  18^th March – 13^th April, depending on how many sailings there are. 

Unloading on docks, onward delivery to Leicester: 13^th April – 20^th April

This gives Fred at least 10 days to do whatever he needs to do (stamping etc) and he can still have it in the shops for the start of May (which is the cover date).

So if we believed that the dock strike caused the missing Marvels, we’d have to believe that the comics with release dates in March, April, May, June & July 1966 all made it without hindrance that we know of ( we have uninterrupted UKPV’s for all these months for all titles).  They somehow sailed straight through the strike which was in progress AT THE TIME of the April release / June cover date issues.  BUT THEN, 3 months after the strike was over, some (but not all)  of the August release / Oct cover date issues somehow got caught up in a strike that was over before they were ever printed.  We also can’t explain how DC kept coming in the whole time, given that they had the same distributors in both the US and UK and presumably sailed on the same ships.

The timeline doesn’t work at all.  If Marvel had believed something was going to go wrong they would simply not have shipped.  They can’t possibly have predicted the strike (and didn’t). And if they had, why would their response be to ship some titles and not others?

So if the dock strike didn’t cause the interruption of US Marvels to the UK….what did?

 

[Malacoda]

The Missing 66’ers. Part Four: A New Hope Theory.  

I think it has to do with T&P going bankrupt in the first half of 1966.  Whether they couldn't pay their bills, or whether Marvel believed they wouldn't be able to pay their bills, or whether T&P just thought they’d be gone by the time those boats unloaded, I don't know.  But it seems impossible to me that the company went flat out bankrupt and was bought by one of its suppliers in July 1966, without there being any impact to their ability to pay the bills in the first two quarters.  Bear in mind also that T&P actually went bankrupt and were taken over by IND. This was not a bailout with a nice  'keep calm and carry on' period, when it seemed things might be alright.  Impulse (which you might know as Science Fantasy Magazine) was shut down because their publisher went out of business because they were owed so much money by their distributor. Three guesses who that was.  T&P absolutely melted down at this point and went out of business owing a lot of people a lot of money.

Bear in mind also that the Porter Group left T&P in the mid 50’s and Fred Thorpe retired in 1963, so although it was called Thorpe & Porter, it featured neither Thorpe nor Porter.  From 1965, after Fred’s departure, they started getting more into the lucrative but highly dodgy end of their business.  I imagine it was bad enough once mum and dad were gone.  Once they had absentee US management, I speculate it opened up a number of opportunities.

But back on topic: re: Gold getting the missing issues, if you consider my theory: You’re Marvel. Gold are your UK distributor for the magazines,  T&P are going bankrupt. You’re going to need a new distributor for your comics.  Who y’gonna call? Maybe those ‘rogue’ consignments which ‘ended up’ with Gold would have been the start of Gold doing that every month? Except T&P didn’t collapse.

Does this theory work?

Well, the temporary collapse of T&P would certainly have impacted Marvel differently to DC. Marvel were printing bespoke UK editions  and relying (we can assume) on the revenue due to the IND stranglehold.   DC were only sending distressed inventory and returns anyway, so they were far less impacted.

Would DC have known that T&P was in less trouble than they seemed?  DC and IND were sister companies, so DC could certainly have known that T&P were going to continue in business where Marvel did not.  DC may have instigated the IND buy out.

Do we think it likely that DC kept it quiet knowing that it would cause Marvel huge problems?

Yup.

Does it explain why DC continued to be distributed but Marvel fell over?

Yup.  

What fascinates me is this:  of the 35 (super hero)  titles in question, 43% of them came in, which tells me that this was not caused by a 100% solid dock strike.  The other thing that I think is very telling is the question that we’re not asking.  We’re sitting here scratching our heads and saying ‘Well, FF 55 came in, but Thor didn’t, how does that make sense?’  But look at it from the other perspective: 

1)      Over these 3 months, at least one  issue is missing from every title

2)     but none are missing all three.

3)     Even FM and MCIC, which were bi monthly, missed one issue, and not the other.  In fact, they alternated each other, and Marvel Tales neatly filled in November.

4)     And the hit is actually almost evenly spread across the 3 months (6-9-6)

5)      And none of them goes Oct and December.  They all go Oct/Nov or Nov/Dec.

6)     And given point 5, then point 4 would have to be like that i.e. more missing in November. It’s the neatest possible arrangement for a sequential reduction.

(see table)  

If you were trying to restrict the supply to UK without killing any of your titles off totally, isn’t this exactly how you would do it?

In the midst of all this chaos, does this not look at bit…..intentional?

What strikes me about this period of chaos, is not the chaos, but the order.

I have no idea what the odds are that if you threw these 35 issues into a hat, you’d pull out at least one of each, but no more than 2 of each, and the two that you get would always be sequential. 

It must be millions to one, surely?

I can include (thanks to Steve) the western & romance titles here, but they don’t really change the picture. In 1966, the highest selling non-hero title (Kid Colt) was selling less than the lowest selling hero title (TOS), so if Marvel were restricting the supply, they’d definitely have started with the lowest sellers.  Additionally, Modelling with Millie and Patsy & Hedy were heading for cancellation,  Kid Colt was already a reprint title and 2 Gun and Rawhide would go the same way, so Millie the Model was the only one that had legs (!)  

Bear in mind that the romance & westerns had the same cover price and cost either the same or more (smaller print runs) to manufacture & distribute and must (I speculate) have had much lower numbers shipped to the UK.  They had to compete with other domestic titles where the US superheroes had less competition.  I’d be interested to know if anyone knows the numbers (amount of westerns / romance shipped to the UK vs the hero titles).

Far from chaos, I think Marvel began to restrict supply to the UK in a very organised way, following months of descent-into-bankruptcy at T&P and began talking to their other distributor.

[Malacoda]

The Missing 66’ers. Part Five: Why did we have to sit through all that?

Conclusion:

I posit that T&P were going bankrupt (fact), Marvel knew it (if UK creditors were not getting paid, why would Marvel be? ), Marvel did not know a rescue was on the cards and they ceased all production of UKPV’s and massively reduced the titles and volume they were sending over until T&P sorted themselves out. In the meantime, Marvel may have made overtures to Gold (frankly if they believed T&P was going down the pan, it would be a bizarre business decision NOT to talk to your alternate distributor).  Which is how the missing 66’ers acquired Gold stamps. 

They were the start of Marvel moving away from T&P in case T&P fell and the start of Marvel testing the water with Gold.  I have no idea if the missing 66’ers were always supposed to go to Gold, which is why they eventually did, or if they were just distressed inventory that T&P couldn’t (at the time) or wouldn’t (later) pay for, but if one of your distributors was paying you and the other was not, where would you have sent your goods? Gold at the time were not only distributing for Marvel, but also Warren (and others?) along with their own range of top shelf mags, and had national distribution, so they were definitely a contender.

 

[Get Marwood & I]

Nice Rich, thanks for mapping that all out. I'm going to read it a few times tomorrow when it's quiet and let the sediment settle. My gut is telling me it has things to say about the first reading, but my leaky brain has yet to catch up and decide what those things are. And further readings might answer those questions.

That said, a snippet from a UK fanzine might interest you (can't recall if I posted it already) - dates too late to impact your theory, but interesting nonetheless:

And some early thoughts while they swim in the mind. 

The 10d stamps that we believe to be Gold Star (as Albert first suggested if I recall correctly) exist for other publishers and some Marvel examples extend beyond the 3 month window under review here - examples below:

  

How do we account for those, if UKPV's resumed so quickly?

Let's take Sgt Fury as an example - two missing issues:

10d 'Gold Star' cents stamped copies duly materialise for #35 and 36:

 

And then the UKPVs resume straight away:

Is it likely that the T&P bankruptcy troubles would have impacted the production of UKPVs, led to the appointment of a different temporary UK distributor (Gold Star) and then gone straight back to formal UKPVs that quick do you think?

And where is the evidence that the missing stamped issues actually came over sequentially during the break? Given the existence of other Gold Star stamps for other publishers, and later Marvels, how do we know that 'Mr Gold Star' didn't just buy up a load of unsold stock from the US and have a go at making a buck with them, potentially long after the events we're discussing?

And if the issues at T&P were bad enough to result in the cessation of Marvels for a month or so, why don't we see a DC blip - T&P stamped cents copies appear to have been unaffected:

 

Is that likely? Why weren't DC looking for an alternative distributor too?

Maybe some of the answers to my initial comments will jump out on second reading tomorrow, let me know.... 

(Again, great work Rich)

[OtherEric]

4 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Nice Rich, thanks for mapping that all out. I'm going to read it a few times tomorrow when it's quiet and let the sediment settle. My gut is telling me it has things to say about the first reading, but my leaky brain has yet to catch up and decide what those things are. And further readings might answer those questions.

That said, a snippet from a UK fanzine might interest you (can't recall if I posted it already) - dates too late to impact your theory, but interesting nonetheless:

And some early thoughts while they swim in the mind. 

The 10d stamps that we believe to be Gold Star (as Albert first suggested if I recall correctly) exist for other publishers and some Marvel examples extend beyond the 3 month window under review here - examples below:

  

How do we account for those, if UKPV's resumed so quickly?

Let's take Sgt Fury as an example - two missing issues:

10d 'Gold Star' cents stamped copies duly materialise for #35 and 36:

 

And then the UKPVs resume straight away:

Is it likely that the T&P bankruptcy troubles would have impacted the production of UKPVs, led to the appointment of a different temporary UK distributor (Gold Star) and then gone straight back to formal UKPVs that quick do you think?

And where is the evidence that the missing stamped issues actually came over sequentially during the break? Given the existence of other Gold Star stamps for other publishers, and later Marvels, how do we know that 'Mr Gold Star' didn't just buy up a load of unsold stock from the US and have a go at making a buck with them, potentially long after the events we're discussing?

And if the issues at T&P were bad enough to result in the cessation of Marvels for a month or so, why don't we see a DC blip - T&P stamped cents copies appear to have been unaffected:

 

Is that likely? Why weren't DC looking for an alternative distributor too?

Maybe some of the answers to my initial comments will jump out on second reading tomorrow, let me know.... 

(Again, great work Rich)

Maybe I'm losing track, but had we established the UK DC's were newsstand returns at this point?  The books at this point may have actually shown up later but, given the less regular distribution, we just can't tell after the fact.

[Get Marwood & I]

5 minutes ago, OtherEric said:

Maybe I'm losing track, but had we established the UK DC's were newsstand returns at this point?  The books at this point may have actually shown up later but, given the less regular distribution, we just can't tell after the fact.

We did, yes. My point is I suppose, where is the impact on the DC arrivals? All issues around the time arrived, all have the sequentially numbered stamps. No evidence of any DC hiccup. Is that likely?

[Albert Tatlock]

Here is what I remember, just to take one title, at that time Marvel's flagship, Fantastic Four.

FF 54, arrived as expected, no problem.

ditto FF 55.

56 and 57 did not show up.

58 arrived as expected, we wondered why 56 and 57 were late.

59 arrived as expected, we stared to worry. We theorised at the time that one of the then frequent dock strikes was to blame, but I no longer, for reasons set out earlier in this thread, believe that to be the case

60 arrived as expected, now it was panic stations. Everyone had a gaping hole in their collection.

56 and 57 finally arrived, together, at about the same time as 62, but in drastically reduced quantities. I had to cycle all over town to get all the missing issues. I bought all i could find of them, as they were immediately saleable at a profit (3/6 was about the going rate, although some people were asking, and getting. 7/6 for the FF). Fantasy Advertiser had sales and wants lists which illustrate the situation.

Quite a bit later on, before US supplies had filtered in from various entrepreneurs, Alan Austin's UK Price Guide (late 1970s) still had these late '66 issues noted as 'scarce'. They still are scarce with the Gold Star stamp, I reckon they are now well outnumbered by copies without the stamp.

Daredevil 22 arrived about the same time as 29. Not quite sure how David Gold got some of those.

[OtherEric]

52 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

We did, yes. My point is I suppose, where is the impact on the DC arrivals? All issues around the time arrived, all have the sequentially numbered stamps. No evidence of any DC hiccup. Is that likely?

It’s not improbable, even if likely is a slightly strong word.  Since the numbers are somewhat scattered at the best of times, and not directly correlated to months, there’s no reason they wouldn’t start with the next number when they started stamping again.  

[Get Marwood & I]

9 minutes ago, Albert Tatlock said:

Here is what I remember, just to take one title, at that time Marvel's flagship, Fantastic Four.

FF 54, arrived as expected, no problem.

ditto FF 55.

56 and 57 did not show up.

58 arrived as expected, we wondered why 56 and 57 were late.

59 arrived as expected, we stared to worry. We theorised at the time that one of the then frequent dock strikes was to blame, but I no longer, for reasons set out earlier in this thread, believe that to be the case

60 arrived as expected, now it was panic stations. Everyone had a gaping hole in their collection.

56 and 57 finally arrived, together, at about the same time as 62, but in drastically reduced quantities. I had to cycle all over town to get all the missing issues. I bought all i could find of them, as they were immediately saleable at a profit (3/6 was about the going rate, although some people were asking, and getting. 7/6 for the FF). Fantasy Advertiser had sales and wants lists which illustrate the situation.

Quite a bit later on, before US supplies had filtered in from various entrepreneurs, Alan Austin's UK Price Guide (late 1970s) still had these late '66 issues noted as 'scarce'. They still are scarce with the Gold Star stamp, I reckon they are now well outnumbered by copies without the stamp.

Daredevil 22 arrived about the same time as 29. Not quite sure how David Gold got some of those.

Maybe Gold got wind of everyone's dismay re the missing issues and nabbed a limited supply somehow from the US, hence the reduced numbers, after the event. I remember you saying how late the missing issues were now. That doesn't fit a theory that Gold was appointed to distribute at the time of T&Ps troubles does it. 

I need to revisit some things to refresh my memory I think. Will be back tomorrow at some point. Line of Duty's on in a minute and I need to make the tea. 

 

[Get Marwood & I]

10 minutes ago, OtherEric said:

It’s not improbable, even if likely is a slightly strong word.  Since the numbers are somewhat scattered at the best of times, and not directly correlated to months, there’s no reason they wouldn’t start with the next number when they started stamping again.  

True, true. The 'what' we always seem to have - the 'when', not so much. And don't talk to me about The Who (get your jokes in now). That's why I liked the Operation Third Form research - pinning things that we know exist to an actual date on our shores. Thought that might have got more interest but there you go.  

All good fun, either way. And I reckon Kate is H 

[Albert Tatlock]

2 hours ago, Malacoda said:

Conclusion:

I posit that T&P were going bankrupt (fact), Marvel knew it (if UK creditors were not getting paid, why would Marvel be? ), Marvel did not know a rescue was on the cards and they ceased all production of UKPV’s and massively reduced the titles and volume they were sending over until T&P sorted themselves out. In the meantime, Marvel may have made overtures to Gold (frankly if they believed T&P was going down the pan, it would be a bizarre business decision NOT to talk to your alternate distributor).  Which is how the missing 66’ers acquired Gold stamps. 

They were the start of Marvel moving away from T&P in case T&P fell and the start of Marvel testing the water with Gold.  I have no idea if the missing 66’ers were always supposed to go to Gold, which is why they eventually did, or if they were just distressed inventory that T&P couldn’t (at the time) or wouldn’t (later) pay for, but if one of your distributors was paying you and the other was not, where would you have sent your goods? Gold at the time were not only distributing for Marvel, but also Warren (and others?) along with their own range of top shelf mags, and had national distribution, so they were definitely a contender.

Lots of food for thought here, good work.

I am sure that if we ever get to the bottom of this, the motivating factor will be unmasked as filthy lucre and little else.

[Malacoda]

1 hour ago, Get Marwood & I said:

 

How do we account for those, if UKPV's resumed so quickly?

Is it likely that the T&P bankruptcy troubles would have impacted the production of UKPVs, led to the appointment of a different temporary UK distributor (Gold Star) and then gone straight back to formal UKPVs that quick do you think?

I think a key point, and a big clue for me, is that UKPV's never actually stopped. There are UKPV's in all 3 months. So whatever it was that happened, it kind of didn't completely happen, which is what I think makes the bankruptcy a prime suspect. I always knew that T&P went bankrupt and were taken over by IND, as I imagine everyone else did, but I had always assumed that T&P got into trouble and IND stepped in and sorted them out before it collapsed.  I assumed this because (a) there was no break in distribution (b) it would be the logical thing to do business wise (c) the name carried on, it didn’t seem like it stopped and started again
However, what I discovered recently is that IND didn’t bail them out, they actually went properly bankrupt and took some (or at least one, anecdotally more) of their customers down with them. So then you start thinking ‘wow, if they actually went out of business, how come there was no interruption to distribution in 1966?’. And then you realise that, of course, there was a massive, as yet unexplained, disruption to distribution (and you’ve always known that).

 
Now let’s have a look at the dates.  Assuming T&P weren’t exactly broadcasting their bankruptcy up this point, but Marvel knew something was amiss.  If July was the point at which IND climbed over the rubble and started putting humpty dumpty together again, you would expect the first comics for which Marvel would restrict the supply to be the first ones in August.  And when were the October cover dates released?  2nd August. 

Bear in mind also that IND were the company that had being absolutely f***ing Marvel since 1958. Even if Marvel knew that T&P was going to stay in business, the fact that it was IND taking them over must have made Marvel’s blood run cold.  Plan B must have looked good at that point. 

Also, I don’t think it ever got as far as Gold being actually appointed, but let me ask you the inverse question:  upon hearing that their UK distributor was going bankrupt, do you think it’s likely that Marvel did nothing?  And is there a more logical step than talking to their other UK distributor?  I can’t imagine that Gold didn’t know T&P had gone bust, so do we really think they didn’t pick the phone up? 

[OtherEric]

39 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

 And don't talk to me about The Who (get your jokes in now).

No jokes.  I won’t get fooled again!

[Malacoda]

9 minutes ago, Albert Tatlock said:

Lots of food for thought here, good work.

I am sure that if we ever get to the bottom of this, the motivating factor will be unmasked as filthy lucre and little else.

Thanks. 

Yes, I agree. I think, because of our love of the comics, we have very rose tinted glasses. We should remember that T&P, Miller, Gold and even Marvel (by which I mean Magazine Management) were all pornographers as well. The people making the decisions were in it for the cold hard cash. 

[Malacoda]

2 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

And where is the evidence that the missing stamped issues actually came over sequentially during the break? Given the existence of other Gold Star stamps for other publishers, and later Marvels, how do we know that 'Mr Gold Star' didn't just buy up a load of unsold stock from the US and have a go at making a buck with them, potentially long after the events we're discussing?

I don't believe they did come over sequentially.  I think they came over like Albert said they did. I think they were taken out sequentially. I think Marvel took a logical approach to reducing supply to T&P, which is why there is the 1 on / 2 off pattern for EVERY title. Whatever happened, it either wasn't random or somehow accidentally produced a very tailored-looking sequential consistent outcome.  I can't explain how they popped up months later, maybe they were put aside, maybe a warehouse find, obviously Marvel had a contract to supply X amount to T&P, but T&P weren't paying / went under, so the minimum contracted amounts were put aside? Then later it was 'so what are we going to do with this lot that were supposed to go to the UK?'. I'm completely spitballing here. 

I assume we agree that its not a coincidence that those very issues are the ones that did not get distributed here and then months later those very issues turned up here?  I imagine that by that time, they were distressed inventory to the point that 'Mr. Gold Star' got them virtually free, so he'd have been a fool to say no. 

[Albert Tatlock]

I did try writing to David Gold a few months ago, at his home, not business, address on this very subject.

Signed for the day after I sent it, but so far I have not had the courtesy of a reply.

Wouldn't it be nice if we had a poster on these boards who held a couple of shares in West Ham who could buttonhole him at the next AGM?