The Distribution of US Published Comics in the UK (1959~1982) 15 15

[Get Marwood & I]

49 minutes ago, Malacoda said:

And then rushed out and bought some stickers. 

And these stickers that they rushed out and bought Rich - where do you think they got them from - Woolworths, WH Smiths or John Menzies? 

[Malacoda]

2 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

And these stickers that they rushed out and bought Rich - where do you think they got them from - Woolworths, WH Smiths or John Menzies? 

No idea, mate. I have a horrible feeling that you're about to send me 100 scans that show that the stickers were all different shapes, sizes and colours.  But I can only assume that even if there is variation, the edict must have come from World.....unless the prices are all different too?  If every wholesaler and newsagent in the land spontaneously decided to change the price of their new comics and all changed them to the unprecedented price of  8p, that would be something for us to talk about. 

[Get Marwood & I]

4 minutes ago, Malacoda said:

No idea, mate. I have a horrible feeling that you're about to send me 100 scans that show that the stickers were all different shapes, sizes and colours.  

Nah, twas only jesting D'Artagnan. They were quite consistent as it goes, the stickers (and kudos again to Robot for spotting the cents spines on the UKPVs the other month):

It's nice to hear some new theories and perspectives on these things.

I'm on the road for a bit from tomorrow - keep it up so I've got something to read when I get back won't you (@themagicrobot Robot! Ask some more questions would ya?)

[Malacoda]

Sure thing.  I wasn't sure if I should pace it a bit and give some of the others a chance to weigh in? 

Where are you going tomorrow?  Somewhere nice? 

[themagicrobot]

As my brain is fried trying to compute everything posted by @Malacoda the only question that comes to mind is "How much did Brave and the Bold 117 cost?"

 

[Albert Tatlock]

3 hours ago, themagicrobot said:

As my brain is fried trying to compute everything posted by @Malacoda the only question that comes to mind is "How much did Brave and the Bold 117 cost?"

 

 

3 hours ago, themagicrobot said:

"How much did Brave and the Bold 117 cost?"

And how much were they thinking of charging for HOM 133, before someone noticed and applied a stamp?

[Albert Tatlock]

The changeover from £-s-d to decimal pence was not a clean cut affair.

Mr Google informs us that:

'For a short time the old and new currencies operated in unison, whereby people could pay in pounds, shillings and pence and receive new money as change. Originally it was planned that old money would be phased out of circulation over eighteen months, but as it turned out, the old penny, halfpenny and threepenny coins were officially taken out of circulation as early as August 1971.'

So nothing unusual about seeing comics, or anything else, still priced in old money many months after decimalisation began.

The old 1 and 2 shilling coins were still in circulation many years after 1971, by which time everyone knew that they were now valued at 5 and 10 pence.

Full details of the eventual fate of the sixpence, half crown and their brethren are easily found on numismatic websites.

When looking for £-s-d/pence anomalies, 1971 is the go-to year.

[Malacoda]

On 10/15/2020 at 4:43 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

Back cover of Amazing, with T & P credit at bottom.

Hi Albert 
You’ve pasted some fabulous curios on here. I love this one.  Two guys who often seem like peas in a pod to me are Martin Goodman and Fred Thorpe.  I often wonder if they ever actually spoke, given that they worked together for only 4 years.  One page Fred took from the Goodman playbook was the labyrinth of companies he created.  This one, Jenson, was primarily a comic book imprint (Airboy, Eerie, Frogman, Jesse James, Kid Colt Outlaw) so it’s fascinating to see this cover which credits Jenson as the printers, Hermitage as the publishers and T&P as the distributors, when actually they’re all Fred.  Pay no attention to man behind the curtain!

[Albert Tatlock]

2 hours ago, Malacoda said:

One page Fred took from the Goodman playbook was the labyrinth of companies he created.

There is more (much more, in fact) on the fancy financial footwork of Martin Goodman here:

http://timely-atlas-comics.blogspot.com/2016/10/atlas-errata-cover-alterations-and.html

[Malacoda]

On 10/25/2020 at 9:51 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

Their tentacles extended far and wide, according to the first scan attached, which shows that they had another address in London from which they published the UK version of MAD magazine.

There is also, besides the Oadby address, another in Thurmaston, a suburb of Leicester

You've been on Doc Doom's time platform there, Albert.   You’re right about Oadby, Thurmaston & London, but none of those were concurrent.  They moved into the purpose built warehouse in Oadby in about 1950, but that burnt down in about 1962, that’s when they moved to Thurmaston, also in Leicester.  Then they went bankrupt in 1966 and were bought out by IND, which is when they moved to the first office in London. Then Kinney bought DC and IND in 67, then they bought Warner in 69 and rolled all the companies into Warner communications.  Then Warner merged its distribution arm with Columbia and the whole lot moved again to Warner House in Soho in 1971, which is where the remaining imprints (T&P, BrownWatson, Williams & GBD) stayed until 1979 when it effectively disappeared.   
 In support of your argument for their ubiquity,  they opened a new location in Sevenoaks in Kent in 1948 ( I attribute that year based on the fact that it was at Knole Park and their Knole Park Press imprint started in 1948), which was solely a printworks, I believe, and by the period we’re talking about (59 onwards), they had warehouses in Doncaster, Nottingham & Ilkeston.  So yes, they were a many tentacled beast, but not in Oadby, Thurmaston & London at the same time. 

Edited April 16, 2021 by Malacoda

[Malacoda]

On 4/15/2021 at 8:15 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

I'm on the road for a bit from tomorrow - keep it up so I've got something to read when I get back won't you 

Hmmmmm.   I think it might be possible to prove that the dock strikes had nothing to do with the missing 66'ers. 

And, I've got a bold new theory to take it's place.  

You said you wanted something to read, but... nothing could have prepare you for this!

(Am I successfully building tension up to almost unbearable levels?) 

[David Buck]

On 4/10/2021 at 5:58 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

Regarding the above film, just a thought, if the Marvel comics on the rack are all July/August 1965 cover dates, and the film was released in 1966, then it's reasonable to assume that the film was filmed in 1965, perhaps around the summer July/August window (it's not raining ). Given that the comics appear to be the stamped cents copies which predated the return of pence printed copies after the hiatus, it again could indicate that the comics were getting through, around the right time (a 3 month shipping window places the books on our racks with cover dates matching the calendar dates) and, therefore, this is further evidence that the UKPV hiatus may not have been due to shipping strikes as previously suggested. It looks like the stamped cents comics were getting through, being on sale around the right time, and that the printed UKPV gap was likely something contractual.

I'm going to watch the film and see if there is anything in it to date it - maybe a newspaper or something 

 

Having now viewed it - no more shots of the stand unfortunately but there's a further dating example later in the film where a kid on a park bench is reading the below copy of The Victor - #245 cover dated 30th October 1965 - I don't imagine a CFF film would have been shooting for more than a couple of weeks - if so then this would muddy the water a little more as that would mean the US comics are on the stand in October - a couple of months later than anticipated

Edited April 17, 2021 by David Buck

[Get Marwood & I]

8 hours ago, Malacoda said:

Hmmmmm.   I think it might be possible to prove that the dock strikes had nothing to do with the missing 66'ers. 

And, I've got a bold new theory to take it's place.  

You said you wanted something to read, but... nothing could have prepare you for this!

(Am I successfully building tension up to almost unbearable levels?) 

I thought we'd more or less proven that the Marvel UKPV gaps weren't shipping / strike related, given the abundance of stamped copies for other publishers, but I'm looking forward to the new theory Rich, when you're ready 

[Get Marwood & I]

43 minutes ago, David Buck said:

Having now viewed it - no more shots of the stand unfortunately but there's a further dating example later in the film where a kid on a park bench is reading the below copy of The Victor - #245 cover dated 30th October 1965 - I don't imagine a CFF film would have been shooting for more than a couple of weeks - if so then this would muddy the water a little more as that would mean the US comics are on the stand in October - a couple of months later than anticipated

Cool, thanks David.

I was hoping to see a newspaper and happily spotted this:

I've searched some archive sites for the Daily Mirror in question - "Peace bid by the Commonwealth" appears to be the lead cover blurb - but so far have drawn a blank. If we can identify that newspaper date, then we motoring. It looks to be a genuine paper, and I can't think why they'd either have mocked one up or used a wildly out of date one 

I quite enjoyed the film too. A nice bit of nostalgia, back to the times of innocence and before technology took over our lives. And I'd forgotten about that curly haired girl who was in every CFF film going too 

 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 4/15/2021 at 11:55 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

And how much were they thinking of charging for HOM 133, before someone noticed and applied a stamp?

Unpriced books are cool aren't they Albert - good spot.

I wonder if a pence copy of this one (#9) will ever show. That would give us a UKPV and no visible cents copy!

 

[Garystar]

On 4/15/2021 at 7:04 PM, Malacoda said:

Amazing Adventures,  Conan, FF & Where Monsters Dwell were 6p
ASM, Avengers, DD, Hulk, Subby & Thor were 8p. 
Astonishing Tales, Cap, Iron Man were non-distributed
Xmen had already gone into GS cover stamped reprints, so they’re no help.

So I don’t think there’s a pattern there, I think it was just a massive cokc up.

If we look at release dates rather than cover dates there is a pattern;

3/8/71	Daredevil 81	8p
	Thor 193	8p
10/8/71	Avengers 93	8p
	Hulk 145	8p
	Spider-man 102	8p
	Sub-mariner 43	8p
17/8/71	Amazing Adventures 9	6p
	Conan 11	6p
	Where Monsters Dwell 12	6p
24/8/71	Fantastic Four 116	6p

Looks like they began printing with the more logical 8p and then perhaps a marketing decision to sell at 6p - hence later ones printed at 6p and earlier ones stickered.

[Garystar]

42 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

I've searched some archive sites for the Daily Mirror in question - "Peace bid by the Commonwealth" appears to be the lead cover blurb - but so far have drawn a blank. If we can identify that newspaper date, then we motoring.

A quick google shows there was a meeting of commonwealth countries on 17 June 1965,  a peace initiative relating to Vietnam war - the headline could be relating to this. 

[Get Marwood & I]

21 minutes ago, Garystar said:

A quick google shows there was a meeting of commonwealth countries on 17 June 1965,  a peace initiative relating to Vietnam war - the headline could be relating to this. 

Wednesday the 13th of October:

[Garystar]

Well found. I recorded film but haven’t watched yet. 

[Get Marwood & I]

So, if we date the likely short filming of Operation Third Form (1966) to late October / early November 1965 due to the images of the 13/10/65 Daily Mirror...

 

...and the 30/10/65 Victor...

 

...then these books were on the newsstand in this scene:

 

Marvel

July / August 1965 cover dates:

From Mike's Comic Newsstand:

• Avengers #18 - On Sale Date (US): 11th May 1965
• Fantastic Four #41 - On Sale Date (US): 11th May 1965
• Rawhide Kid #47 - On Sale Date (US): 4th May 1965
• Strange Tales #135 - On Sale Date (US): 4th May 1965

So let's speculate that they're filming in the UK on the 11th of November 1965 - that places the Marvel comics on the rack at 6 months behind the US on sale dates.

Could that six months comprise 3 months shipping (which has been mentioned many times as a possible average shipping time for the day) and, perhaps, 3 months in the US because the books were unsold returns? Or, does the fact that these were the last books in the UKPV hiatus have something to do with it?

What seems to be clear though is that the four Marvels in that scene were cover dated 3 months in arrears. That doesn't seem to fit with some of the personal recollections, unless I'm recollecting wrongly...?

Interesting....