How many pressers do we have here?

[esquirecomics]

I don't know. Who are these mysterious masses investing in comics(valuable enough that someone thought there were worth getting pressed), but not researching current issues in the hobby that might affect value?

 

sfilosa, have you looked at the bidders of Matt's recent auctions? Are they familiar names, or mysterious masses?

 

My thoughts exactly. I love it when the anti-pressers assume that those who don't agree with them are necessarily ignorant on the issue. Yet when you take stock of who is dead set against pressing (I refer to those who call such books "tainted") and those who don't really care about it, those who actually have some real knowledge about the issue are the ones who don't think it is a big deal, while many of the anti-pressers have very little knowledge of what it is or what is can or can't do.

 

Scott, there is far more evidence from these boards alone of people who have noted they would not buy certain books or from certain dealers than from those who have said pressing is not an issue to them. Count them yourself.

 

And, yes, I believe there are many, many ignorant collectors/investors out there who are spending significant amounts of money. I know of several who have spent six figure sums on books and had no idea of pressing at the time they made those purchases.

 

I have no idea what the community as a whole thinks b/c those views remain unknown until they are somehow tabulated, but those in the "Pressing is so cool" or "I don't care about Pressing" camp have no idea either, and that includes you.

[FFB]

I don't know. Who are these mysterious masses investing in comics(valuable enough that someone thought there were worth getting pressed), but not researching current issues in the hobby that might affect value?

 

sfilosa, have you looked at the bidders of Matt's recent auctions? Are they familiar names, or mysterious masses?

 

My thoughts exactly. I love it when the anti-pressers assume that those who don't agree with them are necessarily ignorant on the issue. Yet when you take stock of who is dead set against pressing (I refer to those who call such books "tainted") and those who don't really care about it, those who actually have some real knowledge about the issue are the ones who don't think it is a big deal, while many of the anti-pressers have very little knowledge of what it is or what is can or can't do.

 

Scott, there is far more evidence from these boards alone of people who have noted they would not buy certain books or from certain dealers than from those who have said pressing is not an issue to them. Count them yourself.

 

And, yes, I believe there are many, many ignorant collectors/investors out there who are spending significant amounts of money. I know of several who have spent six figure sums on books and had no idea of pressing at the time they made those purchases.

 

I have no idea what the community as a whole thinks b/c those views remain unknown until they are somehow tabulated, but those in the "Pressing is so cool" or "I don't care about Pressing" camp have no idea either, and that includes you.

 

I never said I did either. I wasn't claiming any knowledge about what the overall collector community as a whole knows or does not know, and if asked, I would probably agree that the vast majority of collectors don't know about pressing (despite Matt Nelson's and Tracey Heft's rather extensive advertising of their pressing services). However, as I pointed out, the vast majority of collectors don't buy books that are pressing candidates, i.e., high dollar, high grade books. When you reduce the survey population down to buyers of high dollar, high grade books (in other words, buyers who are in a position to put their money where their mouths are, instead of spouting off on a topic where they have no stake in the matter), I think you'll find that a majority of them know about pressing. Now the issue of whether they care or not, I have no clue. I think that likely what you'd find is: (a) those who know nothing about it would be suspicious of the practice when first informed of it, and would likely have an initially negative attitude; (b) of those who know what it is and know its limitations, there is no clear majority of people who think that pressing needs to be disclosed affirmatively whenever a seller sells a book, especially if the book is in a blue CGC holder.

 

As for the number of people on these forums who care vs. don't care, have you bothered the check the results of the poll you started? Just because the anti-pressers are the loudest doesn't mean they're the majority.

[nearmint]

I know of several who have spent six figure sums on books and had no idea of pressing at the time they made those purchases.

 

Your point is not very well supported by the actions of blithering insufficiently_thoughtful_persons.

[esquirecomics]

I know of several who have spent six figure sums on books and had no idea of pressing at the time they made those purchases.

 

Your point is not very well supported by the actions of blithering insufficiently_thoughtful_persons.

 

Besides these boards, where would anyone find information about the perils of pressing? Essentially nowhere.

 

And how could the topic even come up in a conversation with a dealer? "Mr. Dealer, I am about to buy $100,000 worth of comics from you, can you please tell me whether there are any scams or concerns within the comic book community that I should know about that perhaps you are engaged in?"

 

Not that Parrino cared about pressing, b/c I have no idea, but do you think he was even told about pressing by Bill Hughes who arranged for many of his purchases?

 

[nearmint]

I know of several who have spent six figure sums on books and had no idea of pressing at the time they made those purchases.

 

Your point is not very well supported by the actions of blithering insufficiently_thoughtful_persons.

 

Besides these boards, where would anyone find information about the perils of pressing? Essentially nowhere.

 

And how could the topic even come up in a conversation with a dealer? "Mr. Dealer, I am about to buy $100,000 worth of comics from you, can you please tell me whether there are any scams or concerns within the comic book community that I should know about that perhaps you are engaged in?"

 

Not that Parrino cared about pressing, b/c I have no idea, but do you think he was even told about pressing by Bill Hughes who arranged for many of his purchases?

 

 

How about dealers you're NOT about to buy 100k in comics from? I find dealers quite willing to talk about comics and what's happening in the hobby.

 

How about other collectors with more experience? Hell, we can't shut up about comics.

 

And what kind of bonehead spends 100k without googling a site just like this one? 100k goes WAY beyond someone who wants to pick up some bronze age Batmans he owned when he was a kind. That's a major investment, and you'd have to be the previously mentioned blithering insufficiently_thoughtful_person to invest that much in ANYTHING without doing the proper research.

[esquirecomics]

I know of several who have spent six figure sums on books and had no idea of pressing at the time they made those purchases.

 

Your point is not very well supported by the actions of blithering insufficiently_thoughtful_persons.

 

Besides these boards, where would anyone find information about the perils of pressing? Essentially nowhere.

 

And how could the topic even come up in a conversation with a dealer? "Mr. Dealer, I am about to buy $100,000 worth of comics from you, can you please tell me whether there are any scams or concerns within the comic book community that I should know about that perhaps you are engaged in?"

 

Not that Parrino cared about pressing, b/c I have no idea, but do you think he was even told about pressing by Bill Hughes who arranged for many of his purchases?

 

 

How about dealers you're NOT about to buy 100k in comics from? I find dealers quite willing to talk about comics and what's happening in the hobby.

 

How about other collectors with more experience? Hell, we can't shut up about comics.

 

And what kind of bonehead spends 100k without googling a site just like this one? 100k goes WAY beyond someone who wants to pick up some bronze age Batmans he owned when he was a kind. That's a major investment, and you'd have to be the previously mentioned blithering insufficiently_thoughtful_person to invest that much in ANYTHING without doing the proper research.

 

People who have lotttttttts of money. Many do become acquainted with a dealer first, who then of course sees $$$$$$$$ in his eyes, and conveniently says nothing about pressing. They probably, I would hope, say something about restoration.

 

How would anyone know to find "collectors with more experience"?

 

There are still a lot of people out there who neither use the Internet extensively (or at all), who don't trust the internet and even those who don't know about CGC. Heck, I didn't know about CGC until maybe 18-24 months ago b/c I had been out of the comic community for several years. And even after I knew of CGC I didn't know of these boards until this past January!! I have never liked message boards for a variety of reasons, many of which I am sure are shared by a lot of people who buy high end books.

 

In fact, all the posts and polls on this board support that premise. How many people on these boards routinely buy $5,000 books or have ever bought a book over $50,000? A handful at most. Yet while those who fit in these categories are likely not huge numbers within the community, I would venture to state they are a bigger percentage than reflected on these boards.

 

One has to seek education in the comic community proactively b/c you will not simply inadvertently stumble upon it very easily.

[tth2]

And what kind of bonehead spends 100k without googling a site just like this one? 100k goes WAY beyond someone who wants to pick up some bronze age Batmans he owned when he was a kind. That's a major investment, and you'd have to be the previously mentioned blithering insufficiently_thoughtful_person to invest that much in ANYTHING without doing the proper research.

Jeff, you'd be surprised at how many people might consider a $100K purchase to be pocket change.

 

Anyways, a lot of people might have done research, but would have stopped at their verification of CGC's authenticity and the number of big-ticket sales of CGC books. If you don't know much about the hobby, how would you know to put the term "pressing" or "restoration" in your google search? If you just put in "Batman", do you know how many websites would come up, and you'd have to plow through that mass to identify something you didn't even know to look for? Think about all the people who join these boards every day who say how much they've learned from being here. Hell, I considered myself a pretty sophisticated collector before I came on here and I've learned a ton.

 

We're all too immersed in the subject here and know too much about the subtleties of this hobby to objectively appreciate what a newbie would see/know. Take yourself out of this comfort zone and pretend that you're interested in purchasing a big ticket collectible that you know absolutely nothing about, such as Ming vases or something, and then do some research on the web. Come back with what you think a collector/investor in Ming vases should know. It'd be interesting to see what happens if you present that research to an expert in the Ming vase market, it would undoubtedly turn out that you just scratched the surface and missed lots of big issues.

[nearmint]

Guys, you're both describing buyers who don't adequately research the item they're buying. The fact that it's difficult is irrelevant to me. A big investment is never easy. You have to do the leg work.

 

Mark, there's a very easy response to your question "How would anyone know to find collectors with more experience?" The answer is COMMON SENSE. In every area of my life, if I want to learn something, I look for the person who knows the most about it and ask questions. And the fact that another buyer might be filthy rich is also irrelevant to me. That doesn't mean they don't have to do the leg work.

 

Tim, I didn't say to google "pressing" or "resto". I said to google for message boards like this one that cover a variety of subjects. And as for your Ming vase scenario, I'd go straight to the Ming expert from the start.

 

The reality is there will always be crooks in every aspect of life. Eliminate one, and another will take his/her place. Therefore, the smart buyer does everything in his power to know the ropes, and recognize the crooks hiding in the shadows.

 

Yes, the bad guys are very, very bad. But giving lazy buyers a pass because the research is HARD doesn't fly with me.

[sfilosa]

You guys are still lumping pressing with restoration. By CGC standards, IT ISN'T.

 

So what if a NOVICE, spent $100K on a book and knew nothing about pressing.

 

What do you think going to happen. He makes a purchase, and the dealer starts laughing at him saying, "I just sold you a PRESSED book, and it's not worth what you paid, ha ha ha".

 

Nothing is going to happen.

 

Once again, Ignorance is Bliss and apparently since you guys don't like NDP, that implies that a person who doesn't know it was pressed is off the hook, since he can't disclose what he doesn't know.

[CW]

Good Call NM

giving lazy buyers a pass because the research is HARD doesn't fly with me.

[esquirecomics]

NM, IMHO, I think you are giving far too much credit to how message boards are perceived. While I certainly believe this particular board is of great value, particularly for discourses such as this, no doubt the high percentage of the postings even on this site are garbage. And I think publicly most people see it that way and would not be looking for information on message boards.

[FFB]

You guys are still lumping pressing with restoration. By CGC standards, IT ISN'T.

 

Fortunately, we don't have to accept CGC's stance as gospel on everything. Pressing IS restoration. To argue otherwise is assinine. The question is, "IS IT SO INSIGNIFICANT THAT IT DOES NOT MATTER."

[esquirecomics]

You guys are still lumping pressing with restoration. By CGC standards, IT ISN'T.

 

Fortunately, we don't have to accept CGC's stance as gospel on everything. Pressing IS restoration. To argue otherwise is assinine. The question is, "IT IS SO INSIGNIFICANT THAT IT DOES NOT MATTER."

 

You confuse me when you actually write something completely on point! I think when that happens it is probably your financee posting under your name.

 

Though the question is: "IS IT", not "IT IS" which is a statement.

[nearmint]

NM, IMHO, I think you are giving far too much credit to how message boards are perceived. While I certainly believe this particular board is of great value, particularly for discourses such as this, no doubt the high percentage of the postings even on this site are garbage. And I think publicly most people see it that way and would not be looking for information on message boards.

 

That may be. If so, then a smart buyer has to look a little harder. Heck, you'd think that someone buying a book for 100K might have heard of the Overstreet guide. All they have to do is see Susan or Matt's ads and realize "Hmmm...I should know about restoration", or "What does Matt mean when he talks about realizing the full potential in my books?" A simple call to either one and he'll get a wealth of information. Heck, he can see Jon Verzyl's multi-page ad, give him a call, and Jon will talk the guy's ears off with so much detail that he'll be an expert before he hangs up. Give Mark Wilson a call and you'll get even more info(although presented in a much more succinct, less tangential manner).

 

Like I said, bad guys are very, very bad. I'm not trying to take the blame away from them. But knowledge is a buyer's best defense. We have some really good people in this hobby(like those mentioned above) who are more than happy to educate newbies. Buyers have a responsibility to themselves to be smart before shelling out the big $$.

[THE_BEYONDER]

When I say Chris and others like him don't know what the hell they're talking about, they know about the issue but know next to nothing about the limits or particulars of the process.

 

As Chris aptly noted, I was referring to him, not you.

 

Is it because you've actually had a book pressed that you rationalize such statements...or is it it more than that?

 

It's clear you've become part of the gang, so why don't you just stop pretending?

 

You call me out specifically to state that I have no idea about the process? That all I have is an uninformed opinion?

 

And then to lump others into your statement with "and others like him"?

 

I post here with a clear conscience.....how about you?

[esquirecomics]

NM, IMHO, I think you are giving far too much credit to how message boards are perceived. While I certainly believe this particular board is of great value, particularly for discourses such as this, no doubt the high percentage of the postings even on this site are garbage. And I think publicly most people see it that way and would not be looking for information on message boards.

 

That may be. If so, then a smart buyer has to look a little harder. Heck, you'd think that someone buying a book for 100K might have heard of the Overstreet guide. All they have to do is see Susan or Matt's ads and realize "Hmmm...I should know about restoration", or "What does Matt mean when he talks about realizing the full potential in my books?" A simple call to either one and he'll get a wealth of information. Heck, he can see Jon Verzyl's multi-page ad, give him a call, and Jon will talk the guy's ears off with so much detail that he'll be an expert before he hangs up. Give Mark Wilson a call and you'll get even more info(although presented in a much more succinct, less tangential manner).

 

One would think so, but I can tell you I personally know someone who spent over $100k for books and had no clue about the guide. The person simply had money to burn.

 

Like I said, bad guys are very, very bad. I'm not trying to take the blame away from them. But knowledge is a buyer's best defense. We have some really good people in this hobby(like those mentioned above) who are more than happy to educate newbies. Buyers have a responsibility to themselves to be smart before shelling out the big $$.

 

You know I agree with you on this sentiment.

[nearmint]

One would think so, but I can tell you I personally know someone who spent over $100k for books and had no clue about the guide. The person simply had money to burn.

 

Hey, if he's got money to burn, and isn't smart about it, then burn, baby, burn.

 

I can't bring myself to be worried or concerned about a guy who isn't worried or concerned about himself. In my mind, he's not even part of the discussion.

[esquirecomics]

One would think so, but I can tell you I personally know someone who spent over $100k for books and had no clue about the guide. The person simply had money to burn.

 

Hey, if he's got money to burn, and isn't smart about it, then burn, baby, burn.

 

I can't bring myself to be worried or concerned about a guy who isn't worried or concerned about himself. In my mind, he's not even part of the discussion.

 

But look at Parrino. Not sure he was too far off from this characterization and his "leaving" the comic community has freaked people out that the market is collapsing. Just one person.

[tth2]

Guys, you're both describing buyers who don't adequately research the item they're buying. The fact that it's difficult is irrelevant to me. A big investment is never easy. You have to do the leg work.

 

Mark, there's a very easy response to your question "How would anyone know to find collectors with more experience?" The answer is COMMON SENSE. In every area of my life, if I want to learn something, I look for the person who knows the most about it and ask questions. And the fact that another buyer might be filthy rich is also irrelevant to me. That doesn't mean they don't have to do the leg work

 

Tim, I didn't say to google "pressing" or "resto". I said to google for message boards like this one that cover a variety of subjects. And as for your Ming vase scenario, I'd go straight to the Ming expert from the start..

Ah, but Jeff, remember, that by going to a reputable auction house or reputable dealer, or purchasing something that has been certified by a reputable certification service, in theory I AM going to an expert who as part of his service is verifying that I am indeed buying what I think I'm buying and disclosing any warts that might indicate that the object is not exactly what I thought it was.

 

If I go to a Sotheby's auction and see they are auctioning a Van Gogh, I shouldn't have to do further research as to whether its really a Van Gogh, and I should also expect them to disclose any relevant information that might impact my purchasing decision, such as that it was spray-painted by a vandal and has subsequently been cleaned and restored. I shouldn't have to go and retain a separate expert to confirm all these things. The only thing that Sotheby's is NOT responsible for, and which I should get independent advice about, is what the painting is worth and whether it's a good purchase.

[tth2]

NM, IMHO, I think you are giving far too much credit to how message boards are perceived. While I certainly believe this particular board is of great value, particularly for discourses such as this, no doubt the high percentage of the postings even on this site are garbage. And I think publicly most people see it that way and would not be looking for information on message boards.

Mark, I could not agree with you more. I've checked out stock message boards and the eBay comic message boards, and ran away screaming. The writing skills of 90% of the inhabitants make Drdonaldblake and action1kid look like pillars of good grammar and spelling. And the content was even worse. For a newbie to go through and pick out the truth from all the dross would be a heck of a task.

 

I checked these boards out very reluctantly only after another collector who I respected kept after me to give them a shot, and even then only after he suggested some topics for me to search to see some focused discussions. Even 10,000 posts later, I would be the first to admit that 90% of it is just silliness and stupidity, but the other 10% is what makes these boards great. But if I didn't have a background in the hobby already, and hadn't spent months on these boards familiarizing myself with who was completely full of BS and who actually knew what they were talking about, I think the usefulness of these boards would be extremely limited.