Combined investment will cause Golden Age (Collectors) to explode 3 3

[vaillant]

On 8/25/2021 at 9:17 PM, eschnit said:

Perhaps, the irony for me is I’m in investments, that’s been my career.  Comics is anything but that to me.  But the only books I’m interested in for the most part, are the ones that you would deem as collectible investments.  If it’s not a grail, or perhaps something I appreciate for the art, or something special unique and rare, then what’s the point.  I don’t need to own something that’s easy to get.

This touches rarity as well, not just "commercial value".
I have tried to read this thread and I still can’t understand why I should want a "digital ownership" percentage of something (not just comics).

[Aman619]

For profit.  End of story.

and for some, profit in something cool they love but can’t own outright. 

[Mercury Man]

On 8/25/2021 at 2:52 PM, valiantman said:

I think it's the same as staying one night in a fancy hotel.  It costs me money, I get satisfaction from the novelty of the idea, there's a view that's "mine" without really being "mine", and I don't get to keep anything the next day.

The difference, of course, is that I can get my money back, if I'd like, on the fraction of the book.

At least with the hotel you get to sleep in the bed, use the amenities, and physically see the view.   You are there.  Your comparison would make more sense if you said you purchased a brochure of the fancy hotel, and can only look at the pictures, pretending you stayed there. 

Rally Rd is like purchasing a stock.  I don't actually own part of Coca Cola, but I can own some of the stock and sell it whenever I want.  Except there is more transparency there.     

[valiantman]

On 8/25/2021 at 3:59 PM, Mercury Man said:

On 8/25/2021 at 1:52 PM, valiantman said:

I think it's the same as staying one night in a fancy hotel.  It costs me money, I get satisfaction from the novelty of the idea, there's a view that's "mine" without really being "mine", and I don't get to keep anything the next day.

The difference, of course, is that I can get my money back, if I'd like, on the fraction of the book.

At least with the hotel you get to sleep in the bed, use the amenities, and physically see the view.   You are there.  Your comparison would make more sense if you said you purchased a brochure of the fancy hotel, and can only look at the pictures, pretending you stayed there. 

A even better comparison would be owning 0.001% of the hotel chain, though you never stayed there at all, it never pays any dividends, and the popularity of the hotel chain could plummet any minute if the CEO Is caught in a scandal... but you have fond memories of old movies featuring that hotel chain.

There's just less chance of that scandal thing happening to Golden Age Superman.

Edited August 25, 2021 by valiantman

[valiantman]

On 8/25/2021 at 3:19 PM, vaillant said:

I have tried to read this thread and I still can’t understand why I should want a "digital ownership" percentage of something (not just comics).

Are you saying you wouldn't buy stocks either?  Because ownership in stocks is "digital ownership".  There are no more paper certificates.

[Spyder!]

On 8/25/2021 at 1:28 PM, Aman619 said:

For profit.  End of story.

and for some, profit in something cool they love but can’t own outright. 

I don’t collect comics for profit. It’s all about the thrill of the hunt and the joy I get from owning them. I don’t do it because I expect them to appreciate or even maintain their value. Some people spent thousands of dollars each year to be a member of a golf club because golf is their hobby. That’s not an investment. The money is just gone forever. Spent on their hobby. I spend thousands a year on comic books. That’s my hobby. And if they were worth nothing tomorrow that would be OK. So no, collecting is not just for profit.

[Aman619]

That’s great.  But there is a lot of investment and profit in comics.  Some like it, others like their comics like you do.  Therefore any kind of investment in comics is not for you.  So this discussion shouldn’t matter at all..

 

ok wait, I lost the thread and post you were referring to.  A lot of discussions going on here today!  The question I was answering in the post you quoted was “ why invest in partial,ownership”.  I said “ for profit”.  I wasn’t answering “why buy or collect comics”.  See what I’m saying? 

Edited August 26, 2021 by Aman619

[Aman619]

For me I started buying and collecting comics off the newssrtand in the 60s. Then in comics shops.  Then filled in back issues.  Completed runs.  Upgraded to HG.  And now?  They have great value, so I’m focused on the financial aspect more than you are.  Which is cool that you don’t look at comics that way.  But no reason why I shouldn’t.

[Aman619]

And I might as well add that there have been two long running themes on the Boards for 20 years.  WHAT I collect is better than what you collect. And WHY I collect is purer than why you collect.  These themes have cause countless arguments and discussions.  It will be ever thus.

[Cat-Man_America]

On 8/25/2021 at 10:12 PM, Aman619 said:

That’s great.  But there is a lot of investment and profit in comics.  Some like it, others like their comics like you do.  Therefore any kind of investment in comics is not for you.  So this discussion shouldn’t matter at all..

This thread sorta looks like a discussion of bitcoin.  I'm uninterested in that as well, but some are really into it.  I guess some folks like the idea of digital time-shares.  That said, I'm certainly not opposed to profit.

On 8/25/2021 at 10:17 PM, Aman619 said:

For me I started buying and collecting comics off the newssrtand in the 60s. Then in comics shops.  Then filled in back issues.  Completed runs.  Upgraded to HG.  And now?  They have great value, so I’m focused on the financial aspect more than you are.  Which is cool that you don’t look at comics that way.  But no reason why I shouldn’t.

Two posts in a row! It's starting to look like you're trying to convince yourself.  FTR, I bought comics off spinner racks in the 60's and later in comic shops.  I backed off trying to fill-in runs when I got into GA and started focusing on the cover art.

On 8/25/2021 at 10:21 PM, Aman619 said:

And I might as well add that there have been two long running themes on the Boards for 20 years.  WHAT I collect is better than what you collect. And WHY I collect is purer than why you collect.  These themes have cause countless arguments and discussions.  It will be ever thus.

OK, that's three! Now it's starting to look like defensive posturing!  

I know I'm not the guy you were responding to, but like you said, it's a discussion.  IMO, what everyone collects is cool, but I'm persuaded that collecting digital percentages is only for those who don't have a passion for actually owning the comics.   Personally, I'd rather share a love of comics than view comics as shares, but whatever.  

[Spyder!]

On 8/25/2021 at 8:21 PM, Aman619 said:

And I might as well add that there have been two long running themes on the Boards for 20 years.  WHAT I collect is better than what you collect. And WHY I collect is purer than why you collect.  These themes have cause countless arguments and discussions.  It will be ever thus.

I don’t mean that the way I collect is more “pure” or anything like that. I agree with you, there is a lot of money in comics and some people view it as an investment. I think that is fine.  I was just pointing out that fractional ownership won’t be every person here’s cup of tea. No right or wrong way about it, just different preferences. 

[Aman619]

On 8/25/2021 at 11:48 PM, Cat-Man_America said:

This thread sorta looks like a discussion of bitcoin.  I'm uninterested in that as well, but some are really into it.  I guess some folks like the idea of digital time-shares.  That said, I'm certainly not opposed to profit.

Two posts in a row! It's starting to look like you're trying to convince yourself.  FTR, I bought comics off spinner racks in the 60's and later in comic shops.  I backed off trying to fill-in runs when I got into GA and started focusing on the cover art.

OK, that's three! Now it's starting to look like defensive posturing!  

I know I'm not the guy you were responding to, but like you said, it's a discussion.  IMO, what everyone collects is cool, but I'm persuaded that collecting digital percentages is only for those who don't have a passion for actually owning the comics.   Personally, I'd rather share a love of comics than view comics as shares, but whatever.  

Sigh. I was just too lazy to go back edit my first post so I typed a new one. Then had another thought after that. I DID edit the third one cause maybe I knew someone would be counting! 

[jimjum12]

On 8/25/2021 at 11:21 PM, Aman619 said:

It will be ever thus.

[Aman619]

On 8/25/2021 at 11:50 PM, Spyder! said:

I don’t mean that the way I collect is more “pure” or anything like that. I agree with you, there is a lot of money in comics and some people view it as an investment. I think that is fine.  I was just pointing out that fractional ownership won’t be every person here’s cup of tea. No right or wrong way about it, just different preferences. 

No it won’t be for everyone!  First you have to have a desire to invest for profit in comics. Then you also have to believe that an Action 1 for instance will keep increasing in value.   And finally, you won’t ever be someone who can ever purchase one on your own.  If the answer to each is Yes, You must then be willing to gamble/invest whatever you are comfortable with to take part in the appreciation in value. 
 

lastly it must be added that you must also have faith in the company that is selling the shares that they will honor the agreement and pay you. 
 

im pretty sure what Valiantman has been consistently saying is that the concept has merit… while also not endorsing any particular entity that is doing this as a for profit endeavor at this time. He only began “touting Rally Road”  — as he has been accused of many times here — when they appeared in the marketplace, because to him, it was a confirmation of an idea he had many years ago that he could not pull off. 
 

In all of these threads what I am hearing on the boards in response to his comments reminds me a lot of what we collectors were saying about slabbing comics.  “No way Jose. Doesn’t feel right.  Comics are for reading and holding “.  Yet here we are.  Independent grading directly led to greater values, and profits for collectors and dealers alike.  And it became very popular and normal. And nearly all of us here are doing it or actively buying slabbed comics, warts and all. 
 

so everyone has their opinions now. Let’s see how they feel later once someone figures out how to do it right. As for myself, I agree with the Concept. 

Edited August 26, 2021 by Aman619

[batman_fan]

I think fractional ownership will at a minimum drive up prices in the short term and more likely drive them up over the long term (long term defined as the length of time the entity is buying material to sell fractional ownership in).  Understanding their customer base allows them to pay a higher price for material than many collectors thereby driving up the price.  I suspect for Rally for example, an Action 1, Detective 27, etc would be major scores worth bidding hard to acquire thereby driving up the price.

[tth2]

On 8/26/2021 at 11:21 AM, Aman619 said:

And I might as well add that there have been two long running themes on the Boards for 20 years.  WHAT I collect is better than what you collect. And WHY I collect is purer than why you collect.  

What a coincidence.  In fact, what I collect IS better than what everyone else collects, and why I collect IS purer than why everyone else collects! 

[Aman619]

Yeah, but you can’t come right and say that stuff.  Supposed to agree that we all respect each others dumb collecting preferences.  Cause, arguing about it won’t change any minds. To each his own.

[LowGradeBronze]

Traditional shares, with a certificate digital or paper, are a financial measure that runs parallel to the business in question. For example, Coca Cola shares are not actually made of Coca Cola. They are a legal instrument. It's not the same with an actual tangible item like a comic. Who is going to decide when the GA comic in question is going to be sold to realise a profit for the owners? Will they all have to vote? Because if it gets sold out from under you, (against your will,) you just get your profit (or loss,) and someone else is the new owner. Would there be a dividend each year the comic rises in value and who sets the level? Who decides how much it's gone up by? I just don't see how it would work without horrendous legal fees to safeguard high value articles. What happens if it gets stolen or lost or burnt? Is everyone paying a few cents on the dollar for fire & theft insurance every year?

Edited August 26, 2021 by LowGradeBronze

[Aman619]

As currently run, the objects are bought, shares issued, with a hold out period. You can’t sell until say 90 days etc. The object is sold and share values are paid out of the proceeds of the sale.  So for now, the entity maintains a lot more control in order to try to guarantee a profit for themselves.  They also value the shares at a price higher than price they paid.  Therefore if they paid 80k and sell 100 shares at 1000 each, that’s 20k profit for fees/expenses, and an investor needs it to sell for 101K to see any profit on their investment.  This too is a limitation as an investment vehicle because it’s not a wide enough open market like Wall Street where you can buy at 9:30am. and sell ten minutes later.  Basically you have to decide if the object will increase more than 20% not just if it will increase at all..  but this just means it’s an investment like real estate more than an equity. If you flip a house you pay broker fees so a sale at price you bought is a loss.so you hold on til you’re in the black.  Again, there’s the concept, and there’s the available vehicles… if RallyRd et al get too greedy they kill the concept. 

[sfcityduck]

On 8/26/2021 at 11:20 AM, Aman619 said:

As currently run, the objects are bought, shares issued, with a hold out period. You can’t sell until say 90 days etc. The object is sold and share values are paid out of the proceeds of the sale.  So for now, the entity maintains a lot more control in order to try to guarantee a profit for themselves.  They also value the shares at a price higher than price they paid.  Therefore if they paid 80k and sell 100 shares at 1000 each, that’s 20k profit for fees/expenses, and an investor needs it to sell for 101K to see any profit on their investment.  This too is a limitation as an investment vehicle because it’s not a wide enough open market like Wall Street where you can buy at 9:30am. and sell ten minutes later.  Basically you have to decide if the object will increase more than 20% not just if it will increase at all..  but this just means it’s an investment like real estate more than an equity. If you flip a house you pay broker fees so a sale at price you bought is a loss.so you hold on til you’re in the black.  Again, there’s the concept, and there’s the available vehicles… if RallyRd et al get too greedy they kill the concept. 

Here's a real world example:

Rally is offering a Star Wars 1 (35 cent) in CGC 9.0 (white).  That book last sold in 2020 for $9,750 (and that same year for $9,600) and that might be the issue Rally bought.  They claim that the "market cap" for the book is $12,000 (which just means they are selling 12,000 shares for $1 each).  For an investor to make a profit on the book it will need to sell for more than $12K. Seems like a real good deal for Rally.  P.S. The legal disclosures say that investors are not really investing in a piece of the book: "The Interests represent an investment in a particular Series and thus indirectly the Underlying Asset." It appears they are selling some sort of derivative.  So you don't even get the satisfaction of being able to say you own an interest in the comic book.

Edited August 26, 2021 by sfcityduck