Disney+'s STAR WARS: AHSOKA TANO show (TBD) 3 3

[awakeintheashes]

On 10/6/2023 at 11:48 PM, ExNihilo said:

By the end of the Rebellion, Sabine would have been WAY too old to properly begin training. 

If the council felt that Anakin was too old to begin training, then Luke was ancient when he started to train. As you said, with not many Jedi around, they are kinda doing the best with what they’ve got. 

[fantastic_four]

On 10/6/2023 at 1:14 PM, I like pie said:

I'm pretty sure the phrase, "force sensitive " has never been said in any of the movies. Again, coming back to Lucas originally intending that every living being has the potential to use the force in one way or another. 

Winds are all around us, and we all have the potential to use those currents to help us fly.  Wish me luck!  

[fantastic_four]

On 10/6/2023 at 10:38 AM, I like pie said:

Lucas actually always said the force is in everyone. It's not an ability you can acquire. It's a skill to hone.

He also tried to quantify it with midichlorians.  So why did Anakin have more than any known Jedi?  Did he hone that somehow while working for Watto?

[drotto]

On 10/6/2023 at 10:38 AM, I like pie said:

Lucas actually always said the force is in everyone. It's not an ability you can acquire. It's a skill to hone.

But, it was never an ability everyone could use, and even if you could use it, there was wide variation in ability.  It just seems now all the primary characters have force ability.  Part of why I liked Mando so much is seeing a non force side of Star Wars.  It seems now that Disney has thrown all of that away.

[I like pie]

On 10/7/2023 at 11:26 AM, drotto said:

But, it was never an ability everyone could use, and even if you could use it, there was wide variation in ability.  It just seems now all the primary characters have force ability.  Part of why I liked Mando so much is seeing a non force side of Star Wars.  It seems now that Disney has thrown all of that away.

Potentially, yes. Everyone could use it. Most didn't. Whether it was from lack of training, desire, distractions, etc.

This really hasn't changed since Lucas created Star Wars

[fantastic_four]

I've had this discussion enough times in enough different forums to not care to pursue it again unless someone offers clear and compelling evidence that Lucas intended it one way or the other, or that some subsequent author has--and so far I haven't seen any new angles or information.  When both sides are balanced together there are enough indications in both directions to not be able to tell--but the strongest signs point to midichlorian capacity being mostly controlled by genetics.  But, again, there are plenty of examples in the opposite direction most explicitly expressed in the films by Rian Johnson in Last Jedi.

The Mandalorian further cemented that by making Grogu yet a third example of his species having a high midichlorian capacity with the previous two being Yoda and Yaddle.  At this point we have to wonder if EVERY member of his species can control the Force.

[I like pie]

A direct quote from Dave Filoni:

"For a long time I’ve used someone like Bruce Lee as an example. He has, if you like, a lot of talent for martial arts – or a very high midi-chlorian count. If I train in martial arts, can I learn martial arts? Yes, I can improve my midi-chlorian count in that discipline. Will I be as good as Bruce Lee? No, that’s not my talent. We were always able to find real-world equivalencies to Star Wars to make comparisons that make it feel like it’s a real thing."

Edited October 8, 2023 by I like pie

[fantastic_four]

On 10/7/2023 at 9:15 PM, I like pie said:

A direct quote from Dave Filoni:

"For a long time I’ve used someone like Bruce Lee as an example. He has, if you like, a lot of talent for martial arts – or a very high midi-chlorian count. If I train in martial arts, can I learn martial arts? Yes, I can improve my midi-chlorian count in that discipline. Will I be as good as Bruce Lee? No, that’s not my talent. We were always able to find real-world equivalencies to Star Wars to make comparisons that make it feel like it’s a real thing."

That falls apart in two ways--one, all the Yodas are Bruce Lee somehow, then?  CLEARLY if an entire race has a high midichlorian count that's something genetic.

Two, so we're to assume that somehow the Jedi were magically able to spot all of the Bruce Lees as babies?  And they can spot a LeBron James or Shohei Ohtani in the womb BEFORE they had the life experiences that made them who they were?  Their path had already been laid out by then, and the Jedi knew that this particular kid was going to have the many epiphanies it takes plus work his arse off to become a star?  Or were these kids BORN with something the others weren't that the Jedi could detect?  

Any organism COULD fly.  But only some are born with wings to actually do it.  Not all of us can be Grogus.  

Edited October 8, 2023 by fantastic_four

[awakeintheashes]

On 10/7/2023 at 10:21 PM, fantastic_four said:

That falls apart in two ways--one, all the Yodas are Bruce Lee somehow, then?  CLEARLY if an entire race has a high midichlorian count that's something genetic.

I can’t speak to Yoda’s race, but in the High Republic, the entire Drengir species were extremely in tune with the Dark Side of the force. So much so that the Sith had to put a large swath of them in stasis to prevent further spread of their darkness. 

Link

 

[awakeintheashes]

One additional thing on this - the ability of a being to shut itself off from the force hasn’t been explored much. I’m not sure if this is what Sabine was doing, but it is what the Jedi, Elzar Mann did in the High Republic. This was due to some of his actions were leading him down a dark path. I’m simplifying it a bit, but he did shut himself off from the force. 

The reason why I mention this is because in the High Republic, we are introduced to a new species dubbed the Nameless or Leveler who “feed” off the force, specifically in those who are sensitive to the force. The creatures did not discriminate between Jedi, Sith, or untrained force sensitives. (Link)

This feeding caused force sensitives to feel out of touch with the force and would cause violent hallucinations and many times death of force-sensitive beings in the creature’s presence. In the novel, Fallen Star, all the Jedi on board Starlight Beacon succumbed to various levels of disturbance brought on by these creatures…except Elzar Mann who had shut himself off from the force. He did feel the disturbances others felt when he opened himself up momentarily to the force. This wasn’t a main plot point of the story, but it was given attention because I’m sure it will play into something later  

While we do have some background on these creatures, I’m not sure if an explanation has been presented yet on why/how this feeding happens to force sensitives and not those who are non-force sensitive.

 

Edited October 8, 2023 by awakeintheashes

[valiantman]

Is there still some argument that George Lucas never intended for anyone-and-everyone to have the potential to become Jedi? It can be both genetic AND potentially anyone.

We know the midichlorian count would be used to identify infants/children for Jedi training, but it doesn't mean their parents didn't also have high midichlorian counts. It just means their parents weren't identified as infants.

The fact that George Lucas created both the midichlorian concept and the Jedi temple full of children of all races means that George Lucas put "the possibility of becoming a Jedi" into any species on any planet in the galaxy. It wasn't introduced when that unnamed kid in Disney's Episode VIII pulled the broom to himself. It was introduced in George Lucas's Episode I, when the temple was full of Jedi from everywhere.  George Lucas had "several" Jedi before Episode I, because we had one Palpatine, one Kenobi, on Yoda, and three Skywalkers. We also know that other Jedi were hunted down and killed. George Lucas put Jedi everywhere... or at least, the possibility of becoming a Jedi... all over the galaxy.  With or without the genetic requirement.

[I like pie]

On 10/10/2023 at 4:52 PM, valiantman said:

 It can be both genetic AND potentially anyone.

I think most fans understand this. My opinion is that, if genetics are involved, there is a better chance the children will excel at using the force.

Not to mention, their parents would most likely know how to train and bring out those powers, from their experiences. 

The best example in canon would be Anakin>Leia>Ben Solo.

[valiantman]

On 10/10/2023 at 5:19 PM, I like pie said:

On 10/10/2023 at 4:52 PM, valiantman said:

 It can be both genetic AND potentially anyone.

I think most fans understand this. My opinion is that, if genetics are involved, there is a better chance the children will excel at using the force.

Not to mention, their parents would most likely know how to train and bring out those powers, from their experiences. 

The best example in canon would be Anakin>Leia>Ben Solo.

So, you're not objecting to the "Jedi are everywhere" problem of all the Star Wars stories since Disney took over?  I thought that was a complaint.

In canon, Anakin>Leia>Ben Solo were passing along Jedi training.  If parents who were never identified were never trained, there'd be nothing to pass along until a Jedi identified and trained one of their children, seemingly "another new Jedi" with no backstory.

[I like pie]

On 10/10/2023 at 5:22 PM, valiantman said:

So, you're not objecting to the "Jedi are everywhere" problem of all the Star Wars stories since Disney took over?  I thought that was a complaint.

In canon, Anakin>Leia>Ben Solo were passing along Jedi training.  If parents who were never identified were never trained, there'd be nothing to pass along until a Jedi identified and trained one of their children, seemingly "another new Jedi" with no backstory.

Not so much that Jedi(or Sith) are everywhere. More that everyone has the potential to become one, with the correct guidance.

I believe during one of the Mando seasons, it was mentioned that Grogu had repressed his abilities from not training or using them so long(trauma may have added to this too).

When Luke was training him, he told Ahsoka that it wasn't so much training him but helping him remember.

On the flip side, I think if Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan never went to Tatooine, Anakin would have grown up to be a really good pod racer and mechanic.

[valiantman]

On 10/10/2023 at 5:29 PM, I like pie said:

On the flip side, I think if Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan never went to Tatooine, Anakin would have grown up to be a really good pod racer and mechanic.

Would Anakin have survived the Tusken actions that killed his mother? 

[I like pie]

On 10/10/2023 at 5:36 PM, valiantman said:

Would Anakin have survived the Tusken actions that killed his mother? 

I would assume he and Shim would be free by then, with all the winnings from racing

[fantastic_four]

On 10/10/2023 at 6:22 PM, valiantman said:

In canon, Anakin>Leia>Ben Solo were passing along Jedi training.  If parents who were never identified were never trained, there'd be nothing to pass along until a Jedi identified and trained one of their children, seemingly "another new Jedi" with no backstory.

I don't understand what you're saying here.  Anakin didn't train Leia, and Leia didn't train Ben.  That example right there is one of the absolute clearest in the story that it's mostly genetics.  How was Leia trained?  Luke did it.  And before Luke did it, who WANTED to train her?  Yoda, as expressed in Empire Strikes Back when Obi-Wan said "that boy was our last hope," and Yoda says "no, there is another."  Why was Leia their "last hope" if Luke ended up dying to Vader on Bespin?  Because Yoda knew she was likely to have a high midichlorian count like her father.  If everybody has the same capacity to control the Force then neither Luke nor Leia are anyone's last hope, right?  Yoda and Obi-Wan can just go to the far reaches of their galaxy, or even to another galaxy entirely, and start training a whole new generation of Jedi to take on Palpatine and Vader.  And the major Force users in the Abams/Johnson sequels don't have to be the kids of Force users from the previous trilogy.

Most humans with genetic potential don't use that potential, but those genetics still get passed along and who knows, their kids might use it.  The great majority of people in excess of 7 feet tall never play basketball, but it doesn't mean their kids don't have the genetic potential to be better at playing if they decide to do so.

Edited October 11, 2023 by fantastic_four

[fantastic_four]

On 10/10/2023 at 6:29 PM, I like pie said:

I believe during one of the Mando seasons, it was mentioned that Grogu had repressed his abilities from not training or using them so long(trauma may have added to this too).

They said he started repressing it after Palpatine executed Order 66 because if had shown his ability the Empire might have become aware he had survived the purge.

[I like pie]

Ahsoka ties in to Fallen Order games.

[awakeintheashes]

On the topic of force sensitives and repressing their abilities - there were a few (maybe more) cultures around the SW galaxy that extremely distrusted the Jedi and force users, and there are examples of characters keeping their abilities hidden. There were even attempts to eliminate any and all force sensitives (Jedi, sith, and civilian force sensitive)

Edited October 13, 2023 by awakeintheashes