Some Unconfirmed Speculation About Two Brothers 16 16

[sfcityduck]

Having said that, I'm not going to float a name without basis.  So if Heritage or CGC want to establish to me that my speculation is wrong, I'll abandon my speculation.  I'm sure that they would not attempt to mislead me in order to suppress the story of these brothers from being confirmed.

[sfcityduck]

6 hours ago, AJD said:

 

And as for "I would not want to facilitate a screw job by staying silent" - oh, please.

You do realize that I was responding to a hypothetical, right?  I'm not suggesting that the family, Heritage or CGC have done anything wrong. 

Obviously, if the facts were as the hypothetical put forth, that our silence was necessary to prevent family members with a RIGHT to the books from knowing of their existence and stopping the auction, then, yes, I would not want to aid anyone in ripping off family members with a legitimate right to the comics out of a selfish desire to have a shot at buying them sooner rather than later.  I can't imagine anyone would think otherwise.

[comicginger1789]

5 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

Having said that, I'm not going to float a name without basis.  So if Heritage or CGC want to establish to me that my speculation is wrong, I'll abandon my speculation.  I'm sure that they would not attempt to mislead me in order to suppress the story of these brothers from being confirmed.

All of what you said in the prior reply makes perfect sense. I am curious why the family obviously told enough of the story to connect dots but chose to not be like "Hey I am Ted and this was my insert relation here's collection!" If I had such a collection in my family, I would be proud.

But I would also never sell it....so maybe therein lies part of the reason, as maybe they are worried someone will know they received a hefty sum for them when it is all said and done and if more public than just the comic community, it might open up some doors for some unsavoury people to think of doing unsavoury things.

[Point Five]

The family could have any number of legitimate reasons for maintaining their privacy, as any family might. Since we don't know those reasons, all we can do is speculate. I personally would rather err on the side of respecting those wishes.

 

[jimjum12]

10 minutes ago, Point Five said:

The family could have any number of legitimate reasons for maintaining their privacy, as any family might. Since we don't know those reasons, all we can do is speculate. I personally would rather err on the side of respecting those wishes.

 

Absolutely... for example, all it takes is one nut-job that finds out you've had a windfall ... 

Personally, I would respect their wishes and let the books speak for themselves, yet here I am, still reading this thread... and yes, I also watch I.D. Channel. As for the family already revealing too much, the average person is incredibly naive , perhaps even so with them. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

Edited May 18, 2021 by jimjum12

[jimjum12]

...to the OP, your research skills are formidable and impressive ... as always.  GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[sfcityduck]

I certainly have a lot of sympathy for the notion that a lottery winner should be entitled to remain anonymous.  And, again, I might be wrong in my I.D. and don't want to paint anyone in a false light.  

But, as Brian and Matt recognized, the story is all important for this collection.  The story is front and center.  And, frankly, the story of the two brothers, as far as I know it, is better than the truncated story that the family has let Heritage tell.

To be clear, I have copies of the older brother's draft registration card and the younger brother's death documents, I have verified the general facts of their military service, I know where they lived, what their father did for a living, when they set out to make their own independent way in the world, what the older brother was doing during the later part of WWII (and it was not sitting at home), and when and where the younger brother died in Korea, and it is a fantastic and inspiring story.  

But, I'm not going to jump the gun in revealing any names.  So maybe there's a compromise.

As I give time for someone to establish I'm wrong, I could start telling the facts about the two brothers I found, without revealing their names or other identifying information ... yet.  I think that would thread the needle here.

Anyone object to that?

 

[SteveDuin]

I'm only skeptical about Heritage's claim that the family wants anonymity because that claim so conveniently allows Heritage to parse and control the narrative.

[midwestfourcolors]

have you considered the names were false from the jump?

[vheflin]

He's not exposing the heirs, only verifying the provenance.

Let's hear it.

[Transplant]

12 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

the story is all important for this collection.  The story is front and center. 

Isn't that all a pedigree is? Provenance and a story with nice books.  If you're selling the story as part of the reason for value, don't be surprised when people want to know about the story BEFORE they buy anything.  

[skypinkblu]

I tend to lean towards being more private about family things, hence I don't do facebook.  So the details about the story that have been told by Heritage and the family's wish for privacy seem to work against each other a bit here.

They may want the most they can get from the collection, but not want TV, news and potential robbers and kidnappers. They may also be trying not to find more long lost relatives, I have no idea.

I enjoy reading mysteries, so I'm enjoying the detective work...and it seems that the OP is to me, having fun with the mystery, but trying to maintain some privacy for the family.

Nothing is perfect.

[Funnybooks]

I respect privacy like we all do, but, once the family consented to putting out a press release I believe anonymity is no longer a viable option. If we keep this clean and deferential, I believe the truth will only serve to benefit the collection.

[sfcityduck]

 

23 minutes ago, midwestfourcolors said:

have you considered the names were false from the jump?

Yes.  I've considered whether every aspect of the story and, indeed, whether the entire story is false.

When I first read the story on Bleeding Cool, I thought:  "This "Promise' story is frigging ridiculous!"  It is either "family mythology" or really naïve and cynical puffery.  I thought, "This is just a spin on the San Francisco story where it wasn't the family buying the comics and storing them while the soldier is at war, it is the OO buying the comics with the storing part changed to after he dies."  I was shocked they were retreading a story, the SF story, that had never even been verified.  The story seemed entirely implausible. 

After all, if you're a 19 to 21 year old going off to war, are you really going to tell your brother:  "If something happens to me take care of my funny books"!?!  Not "take care of my dog" or "take care of our sisters" or "take care of our parents" or "take care of my girl" even.  Instead, the story told by the family through Heritage was "take care of my funny books"! 

"Funny books" were only worth pennies on the dollar back then.  And I don't think soldiers going to war, especially if, as the family through Heritage told the story, they were volunteering to go to war to protect a family member, would have their "funny books' uppermost in their thoughts.   My initial impression was: "What total B.S.  A dumb story for a dumb pedigree name."

You could not make up a story more targeted to the present comic market.  The story seemed too good to be true.

And I don't think I was alone in thinking that.  Does anyone really disagree?

So I set out to find out what I could.  And to do that, I have to take something from the story as true.  If the starting premise is that Heritage is lying about the story, your end point is that the story is entirely made up.  I wasn't prepared to jump to that conclusion. So I took certain information on faith, and started verifying what I could.

Turns out, it was a very interesting and inspiring story.  So I'll start telling it without any names or identifying information for the family.

Edited May 18, 2021 by sfcityduck

[Dr. Love]

Yeh the truth counts. Facts do matter.

And apparently the facts are as HA reported

Edited May 18, 2021 by Dr. Love

[Robot Man]

Maybe the family wants privacy for tax reasons, maybe they live in a small community and don’t want to be bugged by nosy neighbors, maybe there are family members wanting a share that might not be entitled to it. I know full well how family members turn on each other when money is involved. Maybe they don’t want a bunch of fan boys knocking on their door or coming by taking pictures of their house. I know whomever owns the Church house have had to deal with it. Maybe there are legal ramifications between the family and HA. I don’t know or care. They have their reasons and I am willing to let them have them. 

That being said, it would cool to see a picture of these young men especially if comics were pictured in the photo. Nice to put a face to these dedicated collections such as Church, Larson, Crippen, Macon. 

Believe me, if HA could do it they would. They understand marketing. You can’t get any better marketing than these boards. 

At the end of the day, this wonderful collection is going to be finally broken up and scattered to the winds. I wonder what Junie would have thought? 

Edited May 18, 2021 by Robot Man

[Courageous Cat]

speaking about Tales From the Flipside , whatever happened with their GA show Vintage voyage. That was a fun show.

[Funnybooks]

6 minutes ago, Dr. Love said:

Yeh the truth counts. Facts do matter.

HA: Our lips are sealed. But not really!  It was the younger brother's. Or the older brother's. Well it wasnt a sister, that we're sure of!  And then the brother passed away. Last year. Or 20 years ago. Who knows? Oh, that's right, we do! We think. Don't we?

[comicginger1789]

Could the story still be told just using the names we are given? Does knowing the true name (now) really matter to the story. Like you can call the brothers Bob and Lob and still tell their story in a lot of detail that, if someone REALLY wanted to get the real names from all the other info they could. I know I won't. I am more interested in the story.

Edited May 18, 2021 by comicginger1789

[sfcityduck]

The story of the two brothers I found starts with their parents.  The father, we'll call him "Sr.," was born after the turn of the century.  The mother, we'll call her "Mom" was five years younger than her husband.  How'd they meet?  I don't know.  Must have been a love match because Sr. and Mom were married only three months before their first child was born.  And they stayed married until the end as far as I can tell.  They had been born in different states in the East, but had moved a bit westward and presumably met in the city in which they were married.

Folks have speculated that the family must have been rich for a kid or kids to have amassed 5,000 comics.  That's not the case, because we know that the OOs of the MH, Cooktown, Larson, and Dave Wigransky's 5,000+ book collection were all compiled by middle class folks. 

Here, various documents reflect that Sr. attended 8 years of school and then worked a laborer, a shoemaker, an attendant, and for the government.  Mom stayed home to take care of the four kids - two boys and two daughters, in that order.  They were a pretty typical working/middle class family.  Lived in a house.

The two boys were born around 1928 and 1931.   "Robert," the older, is an interesting fellow.  A blue eyed blonde haired kid with a light complexion, he apparently dropped out of H.S. in the early part of 1944, probably right after turning 16, and volunteered for the Merchant Marine.  At the time, Merchant Marine sailors were civilians, but Merchant Marine ships could carry weapons and they were auxiliaries to the Navy.  Innumerable Merchant Marine transports were torpedoed during WWII.  But, it could be a very good job.  Especially if you had steady work in an area where there was no risk of your ship being sunk.  The Merchant Marine worked the Atlantic, Pacific, Caribbean, and even the Great Lakes.  We can infer that Robert was a sailor in the Merchant Marine, because his WWII draft card from 1946 (the year he turned 18) reflects that he had a tattoo on his upper arm.  Robert wasn't living with the rest of his family when he executed the 1946 draft card after he turned 18, as far as I can tell.

The younger brother, we'll call him "Jr.", was two years younger than Robert.  He was a kid throughout WWII. 

And this is where I have to stop, pause, and again acknowledge that I am speculating because the story is about to diverge a bit from Heritage's telling.