Predicament involving GA purchase and cautionary tale about "shaken comic syndrome" 3 3

[tth2]

10 hours ago, Falcon760 said:

Dunno what your deal is.  You complained and they gave your money back.  But you didn't keep the money.  I don't get it.  It was damaged.  Get your money back.  

+1

[manetteska]

Not saying anything specific to this case, but comics can definitely move inside the CGC case, especially if not packed properly and the box is tossed around the shipping facility. 
 

Happened to me on a Cinderella Love where the staple tore the cover and became detached. 

[Robot Man]

Coming from a guy fortunate to own a nice copy of this book, I can feel your pain. 

However, I believe you handled it entirely wrong. 

First you send the book back without their consent. Then you send back their refund check back also without their consent. What is it you want them to do to make you happy? 

If you were after a partial refund because you really wanted the book, you should have tried to negotiate it before giving up the book. You might have got it, you might not but keeping it would have been your choice. Lack of patience has now cost you any chance of owning this copy at all. 

Personally, I rarely offer partial refunds unless a gross error directly on my part. Usually, I say send it back for a full refund. Prevents “buyer’s remorse” or those fishing for a lower price after the fact. 

The Ritters are top notch folks. They tried to make it right and you even refused the refund which you are entitled to. 

Me, I would have kept it and tried to negotiate a little. If they said full refund or nothing, I would have probably kept that one and gotton over it. A VERY tough and in demand issue. 

Sorry for the bad experience...

Edited July 17, 2021 by Robot Man

[Cat-Man_America]

5 hours ago, manetteska said:

Not saying anything specific to this case, but comics can definitely move inside the CGC case, especially if not packed properly and the box is tossed around the shipping facility. 
 

Happened to me on a Cinderella Love where the staple tore the cover and became detached. 

Yep, I can bear witness to that.  I told this sad tale a few years ago in another thread (deja vu all over again).  It's the classic Shake-spearian tragedy of the Church Cat-Man that my late friend, dealer John Verzyl brought over on one of his visits.  

He said "Cat, I just picked up a book that's right up your alley" (I'm paraphrasing, as he'd have appreciated the cat pun).  Anyway, he handed me an old label graded copy of Cat-Man pulled from his short-box.  It was Cat-Man #26, and indeed it was the Edgar Church copy in a very early CGC case.  Looking the book over, I said "this grade is off" -- it was in a 9.2 holder based on my best recollection.  

At first he thought I was kidding or negotiating a lower price, but then I said "This isn't a high grade copy, ...it has a serious staple pull."  When I handed the book back to him I could tell by his shocked expression he hadn't observed this damage.  

The holder and label was one of the very earliest from the CGC, clearly there wasn't an inner envelope or securing tab.  At some point, the book shifted in the holder while being moved, the interior pages pulling free of the cover at the staple, which was held in place by the case.  I couldn't tell if the cover was detached, but there was a clear staple pull from the spine with pages exposed nearly a quarter inch on the right.  John resubmitted the book and it came back in a 7.5 holder.  

I've never owned this book, but the image is archived so I'll include it here in spoilers...

Spoiler

 

[jimbo_7071]

33 minutes ago, Cat-Man_America said:

Yep, I can bear witness to that.  I told this sad tale a few years ago in another thread (deja vu all over again).  It's the classic Shake-spearian tragedy of the Church Cat-Man that my late friend, dealer John Verzyl brought over on one of his visits.  

He said "Cat, I just picked up a book that's right up your alley" (I'm paraphrasing, as he'd have appreciated the cat pun).  Anyway, he handed me an old label graded copy of Cat-Man pulled from his short-box.  It was Cat-Man #26, and indeed it was the Edgar Church copy in a very early CGC case.  Looking the book over, I said "this grade is off" -- it was in a 9.2 holder based on my best recollection.  

At first he thought I was kidding or negotiating a lower price, but then I said "This isn't a high grade copy, ...it has a serious staple pull."  When I handed the book back to him I could tell by his shocked expression he hadn't observed this damage.  

The holder and label was one of the very earliest from the CGC, clearly there wasn't an inner envelope or securing tab.  At some point, the book shifted in the holder while being moved, the interior pages pulling free of the cover at the staple, which was held in place by the case.  I couldn't tell if the cover was detached, but there was a clear staple pull from the spine with pages exposed nearly a quarter inch on the right.  John resubmitted the book and it came back in a 7.5 holder.  

I've never owned this book, but the image is archived so I'll include it here in spoilers...

  Hide contents

 

I bought the book as a 7.5. I had actually thought about bidding on it in the Nic Cage auction in October of 2002 when it was still a 9.2; I wish I had.

It was slabbed for that auction with the notation "From the Collection of Nicholas Cage," so the slab shouldn't have been too early. Apparently loose inner wells were a problem at least through mid '02.

ETA: This comic can slide all over the place inside the inner well. At some point I will have to drive to Sarasota in order to have it re-holdered (since CGC doesn't do re-holders at cons).

Edited July 18, 2021 by jimbo_7071

[fifties]

I got this book in today.  It has an inner sleeve, just as all the slabbed books I've received have.  Once I removed it from the outer shell, I banged it on it's side, to try to move the book sideways, and that didn't occur.  So unless the OP had a slab W/O the inner sleeve, there simply doesn't seem to be any way his book could have moved.

[Heronext]

9 hours ago, Robot Man said:

First you send the book back without their consent.

Absolutely not.  Not sure where you got this idea.

[Heronext]

9 hours ago, Robot Man said:

Me, I would have kept it and tried to negotiate a little. If they said full refund or nothing, I would have probably kept that one and gotton over it. A VERY tough and in demand issue.

Perhaps a visit here when I received the book would have been a good move.  This was a freak situation.  A lot was going on between the days I got the book and put it back in the mail.

Yes I regretted it and tried a Hail Mary pass, but my money doesn't deserve to be held hostage.  It also doesn't make me a "problem customer" which someone richly intimated. 

"[Seller's] poor communication is a bad look," someone said earlier. This is the key takeaway.  A refund to my original form of payment (credit card) could solve this in a snap.

[Heronext]

10 hours ago, Robot Man said:

Coming from a guy fortunate to own a nice copy of this book, I can feel your pain. 

Appreciate the words. I have a lot of nice grails.  There will be others.

[Sensei Ryan]

1 hour ago, Heronext said:

Yes I regretted it and tried a Hail Mary pass, but my money doesn't deserve to be held hostage.  It also doesn't make me a "problem customer" which someone richly intimated. 

Just caught up on this thread, but what was the purpose of mailing the check back to them that they sent you as the refund?  And did you provide them any tracking info on the returned check?  If not, they are most likely hesitant to refund you as how do they know you don't have the check still (assuming it never made it to them if you did mail it back)? I'd be absolutely hesitant as a seller to accidentally potentially double-refund a customer with both a check (which has yet to be cashed and possibly held on to) and through a credit card.  I know you've heard this already, but mailing them the refund check back was not the best move and I understand why they've not sent it yet.   Granted, they could cancel the check in advance through their bank but this was just an odd thing to do.

I do agree with you 100% that books can get SCS in transit, though...and I am very particular about my books, too.  In this case, it appears like the others have said that this book is just loose and not detached - you most likely could have shifted it back into place on your own but I know that's not the ideal thing because it leaves you wondering if it's actually a 3.5.  It's a difficult game to play, this game we all are in...the graded comic collecting game.

[Heronext]

11 hours ago, Sensei Ryan said:

what was the purpose of mailing the check back to them that they sent you as the refund?

This key event seems to interest many.  I think this is the best way to explain.

Imagine this takes place at a convention.  Seller has book for sale.  It is the first appearance of Namora.  I say, I'll take that please, and pay by credit card.

Seller hands book to a third party to hand to me, say, a collector friend of theirs, and they drop it on the floor.  Book is damaged as illustrated previously.  I pick it up, look at it, and can't believe what has happened.  I'm in shock, and extremely disappointed.  I hold up the book, point out the damage, and ask the seller what they think.

Yep, looks damaged, they say.  Gee, I thought that friend of mine was really good at handing comics to people.  Wasn't our fault.  You can get a full refund.

I hand it back to the third party, who holds it for a while.  Still dumbfounded, I say to seller, OK, I'll take the refund I guess.

While third party is still holding the book, I take out my phone, search the Internet, and can't find another copy for sale.  Seller has his back to me but is within earshot.  I say Hey, on second thought, what do you think you'll do with that book?  If you crack it out (I assumed it would be cracked out and inspected), can I have first shot at buying the book again?  I am confident seller heard.

(Call me old school, but I think given that seller/intermediary failing to deliver to me comic in state it was at time of purchase, seller might feel some obligation to give me some kind of satisfaction by say, considering my proposal seriously and obliging if in any way he can, even if just to say Look, I popped it back into place.  Looks good to me.  Do you want it for the same price you paid the first time?). 

Seller is handed the book, goes behind a curtain, and comes back.  He puts a check on my side of the table.

I'm confused at this point for 2 reasons: 1, I paid by credit card so why didn't they process the refund that way, and 2, didn't he hear me say I preferred to keep the book, somehow, some way?

I hand the check over and say, What about the idea I can keep the book after all?

He says, When you returned this, we're out the fees the credit card company charged us from the original purchase.  When my partner comes back, I'll let him know you want to keep the book and we'll get back to you. 

If you don't understand the statement in bold or its relevance, neither do I. I'm thinking, aren't they the ones who accept credit cards? Aren't they the ones with the liberal return policy? (not that the appropriateness of a return in this situation is in question).  Won't they no longer be out the credit card fees if we ultimately agree to just leave the original sale in place, unreversed?

Even though I didn't understand the thing about the credit cards, I say Hey, I didn't know this thing about the credit cards.  In the future, I'd be happy to pay with Zelle, Venmo, or personal check.  Are you set up to accept those forms of payment?

Sellers go away with the book and the check.  Someone runs up and screams, HEY EVERYONE!  NAMORA IS GOING TO BE IN THE BLACK PANTHER MOVIE NEXT YEAR!

I wait for the seller to come back, but never hear from them again.  Much later, someone tells me they have consigned the book to an auction house.  What I thought was pretty serious damage appears magically fixed.

This part is pure speculation, but maybe sellers thought, This is now a problem book.  Instead of reselling it on our own site, let's consign it to a dumping ground auction that doesn't report to GPA.  There will be no record of the sale.  It will fit right in with the books with problematic back covers consignors hope to pass off to unseasoned and undiscerning collectors. Plus, now certain rumors regarding Namora are spreading, maybe it will sell for a lot more than we got from that other guy. (Not saying this happened, but maybe it did.  If this book had been, say, Grape Ape #11, I think I'd be holding the book now.)

Now, what were my mistakes?  A mistake can only be judged in the context of a desired outcome.  If I wanted to keep the book, was it a mistake to hand it back to the seller, and signal acceptance of the return idea?  That is blatantly obvious.

Was it a mistake to give the refund check back?  Only if they are never, ever, going to give me my money back.  Many boardies say the sellers are good people.  I believe those boardies, and good people would not keep my money indefinitely.  Therefore, I'm confident that handing the check back will not end up having been a mistake.

Edited July 18, 2021 by Heronext

[Cat-Man_America]

3 hours ago, fifties said:

I got this book in today.  It has an inner sleeve, just as all the slabbed books I've received have.  Once I removed it from the outer shell, I banged it on it's side, to try to move the book sideways, and that didn't occur.  So unless the OP had a slab W/O the inner sleeve, there simply doesn't seem to be any way his book could have moved.

Barex inner sleeves started going away when the last source shut down in late 2015.  The CGC modified holders in early 2016.  They also did a label redesign.  If it's a larger grade box on the label, it's a post-barex slabbed book and ...unless something has radically changed... there's no inner sleeve.  The book you cracked out today was encapsulated before the changeover which is described in the link below...

https://www.cgccomics.com/news/article/5383/

Although the link doesn't specifically mention inner sleeves it talks about improved clarity ...which you get without the Barex sleeve... and mentions issues complained about which turned into bigger issues.

The OP purchased a book in a newer holder (larger grade box).  The other issues with encapsulation in newer holders have been discussed ad infinitum and supposedly have been addressed so there's no need to rehash them here, but any speculation on what happened to the book Heronext purchased should probably be considered in that context.  Not being argumentative here, just trying to keep facts straight.   

[fifties]

2 hours ago, Cat-Man_America said:

Barex inner sleeves started going away when the last source shut down in late 2015.  The CGC modified holders in early 2016.  They also did a label redesign.  If it's a larger grade box on the label, it's a post-barex slabbed book and ...unless something has radically changed... there's no inner sleeve.  The book you cracked out today was encapsulated before the changeover which is described in the link below...

https://www.cgccomics.com/news/article/5383/

Although the link doesn't specifically mention inner sleeves it talks about improved clarity ...which you get without the Barex sleeve... and mentions issues complained about which turned into bigger issues.

The OP purchased a book in a newer holder (larger grade box).  The other issues with encapsulation in newer holders have been discussed ad infinitum and supposedly have been addressed so there's no need to rehash them here, but any speculation on what happened to the book Heronext purchased should probably be considered in that context.  Not being argumentative here, just trying to keep facts straight.   

How do you know that his book was in a newer holder, sans the inner sleeve.

Heronext, did the slab have an inner sleeve, do you remember?

[jimbo_7071]

@Heronext

Did you request a refund when you sent the book back, or did you send it back to be reviewed? If you didn't ask for a refund, then the book still belongs to you and the dealer had no business sending you a refund check.

Am I to understand that this dealer listed the book in a Comiclink auction without having it regraded even though he knew that it had sustained damage in the slab? That's a pretty sleazy dealer.

[Cat-Man_America]

37 minutes ago, fifties said:

How do you know that his book was in a newer holder, sans the inner sleeve.

Heronext, did the slab have an inner sleeve, do you remember?

Complete changeover included the new larger grade-box labels. This included new heat sealing process, raising the label out front in a higher visibility plane and elimination of the Barex inner sleeve.  Do the research, it backs me up,

His book was graded after the changeover.  Trust me, it’s a newer holder, no Barex inner sleeve. 

[Ryan.]

3 hours ago, jimbo_7071 said:

@Heronext

Did you request a refund when you sent the book back, or did you send it back to be reviewed? If you didn't ask for a refund, then the book still belongs to you and the dealer had no business sending you a refund check.

Am I to understand that this dealer listed the book in a Comiclink auction without having it regraded even though he knew that it had sustained damage in the slab? That's a pretty sleazy dealer.

Heronext bought comic from Worldwide via credit card. 

Comic shows up damaged. 

Heronext sent comic back to WW. 

WW sent refund via check for some reason, inferring that they agreed to refund. 

Heronext decided he wanted comic anyway and sent back refund check instead of, I think, confirming with WW that he was going to send the check back. Destroying the check was never considered apparently. Communication between the parties is fuzzy here. 

The check is currently floating in the void somewhere. 

WW, likely done with this whole transaction and annoyed with the comic, sent it off to auction. Not great. 

Currently, Heronext awaits the refund. 

Obvious solution: WW cancels the check and refunds the original payment method, which is a credit card. 

Edited July 18, 2021 by Ryan.

[vheflin]

7 hours ago, Heronext said:

This key event seems to interest many.  I think this is the best way to explain.

Imagine this takes place at a convention.  Seller has book for sale.  It is the first appearance of Namora.  I say, I'll take that please, and pay by credit card.

Seller hands book to a third party to hand to me, say, a collector friend of theirs, and they drop it on the floor.  Book is damaged as illustrated previously.  I pick it up, look at it, and can't believe what has happened.  I'm in shock, and extremely disappointed.  I hold up the book, point out the damage, and ask the seller what they think.

Yep, looks damaged, they say.  Gee, I thought that friend of mine was really good at handing comics to people.  Wasn't our fault.  You can get a full refund.

I hand it back to the third party, who holds it for a while.  Still dumbfounded, I say to seller, OK, I'll take the refund I guess.

While third party is still holding the book, I take out my phone, search the Internet, and can't find another copy for sale.  Seller has his back to me but is within earshot.  I say Hey, on second thought, what do you think you'll do with that book?  If you crack it out (I assumed it would be cracked out and inspected), can I have first shot at buying the book again?  I am confident seller heard.

(Call me old school, but I think given that seller/intermediary failing to deliver to me comic in state it was at time of purchase, seller might feel some obligation to give me some kind of satisfaction by say, considering my proposal seriously and obliging if in any way he can, even if just to say Look, I popped it back into place.  Looks good to me.  Do you want it for the same price you paid the first time?). 

Seller is handed the book, goes behind a curtain, and comes back.  He puts a check on my side of the table.

I'm confused at this point for 2 reasons: 1, I paid by credit card so why didn't they process the refund that way, and 2, didn't he hear me say I preferred to keep the book, somehow, some way?

I hand the check over and say, what about the idea I can keep the book after all?

He says, When you returned this, we're out the fees the credit card company charged us from the original purchase.  When my partner comes back, I'll let him know you want to keep the book and we'll get back to you. 

If you don't understand the statement in bold or its relevance, neither do I. I'm thinking, aren't they the ones who accept credit cards? Aren't they the ones with the liberal return policy? (not that the appropriateness of a return in this situation is in question).  Won't they no longer be out the credit card fees if we ultimately agree to just leave the original sale in place, unreversed?

Even though I didn't understand the thing about the credit cards, I say Hey, I didn't know this thing about the credit cards.  In the future, I'd be happy to pay with Zelle, Venmo, or personal check.  Are you set up to accept those forms of payment?

Sellers go away with the book and the check.  Someone runs up and screams, HEY EVERYONE!  NAMORA IS GOING TO BE IN THE BLACK PANTHER MOVIE NEXT YEAR!

I wait for the seller to come back, but never hear from them again.  Much later, someone tells me they have consigned the book to an auction house.  What I thought was pretty serious damage appears magically fixed.

This part is pure speculation on my part, but maybe sellers thought, This is now a problem book.  Instead of reselling it on our own site, let's consign it to a dumping ground auction that doesn't report to GPA.  There will be no record of the sale.  It will fit right in with the books with problematic back covers consignors hope to pass off to unseasoned and undiscerning collectors. Plus, now certain rumors regarding Namora are spreading, maybe it will sell for a lot more than we got from that other guy. (Not saying this happened, but maybe it did.  If this book had been, say, Grape Ape #11, I think I'd be holding the book now.)

Now, what were my mistakes?  A mistake can only be judged in the context of a desired outcome.  If I wanted to keep the book, was it a mistake to hand it back to the seller, and signal acceptance of the return idea?  That is blatantly obvious.

Was it a mistake to give the refund check back?  Only if they are never, ever, going to give me my money back.  Many people here say the sellers are good people.  I believe those members, and good people would not keep my money indefinitely.  Therefore, I'm confident that handing the check back will not end up having been a mistake.

Thus we have the great philosophical question of our time: If a comic book is sold but not reported to GPA, did it really sell?

[jimbo_7071]

9 hours ago, Heronext said:

This key event seems to interest many.  I think this is the best way to explain.

Imagine this takes place at a convention.  Seller has book for sale.  It is the first appearance of Namora.  I say, I'll take that please, and pay by credit card.

Seller hands book to a third party to hand to me, say, a collector friend of theirs, and they drop it on the floor.  Book is damaged as illustrated previously.  I pick it up, look at it, and can't believe what has happened.  I'm in shock, and extremely disappointed.  I hold up the book, point out the damage, and ask the seller what they think.

Yep, looks damaged, they say.  Gee, I thought that friend of mine was really good at handing comics to people.  Wasn't our fault.  You can get a full refund.

I hand it back to the third party, who holds it for a while.  Still dumbfounded, I say to seller, OK, I'll take the refund I guess.

While third party is still holding the book, I take out my phone, search the Internet, and can't find another copy for sale.  Seller has his back to me but is within earshot.  I say Hey, on second thought, what do you think you'll do with that book?  If you crack it out (I assumed it would be cracked out and inspected), can I have first shot at buying the book again?  I am confident seller heard.

(Call me old school, but I think given that seller/intermediary failing to deliver to me comic in state it was at time of purchase, seller might feel some obligation to give me some kind of satisfaction by say, considering my proposal seriously and obliging if in any way he can, even if just to say Look, I popped it back into place.  Looks good to me.  Do you want it for the same price you paid the first time?). 

Seller is handed the book, goes behind a curtain, and comes back.  He puts a check on my side of the table.

I'm confused at this point for 2 reasons: 1, I paid by credit card so why didn't they process the refund that way, and 2, didn't he hear me say I preferred to keep the book, somehow, some way?

I hand the check over and say, what about the idea I can keep the book after all?

He says, When you returned this, we're out the fees the credit card company charged us from the original purchase.  When my partner comes back, I'll let him know you want to keep the book and we'll get back to you. 

If you don't understand the statement in bold or its relevance, neither do I. I'm thinking, aren't they the ones who accept credit cards? Aren't they the ones with the liberal return policy? (not that the appropriateness of a return in this situation is in question).  Won't they no longer be out the credit card fees if we ultimately agree to just leave the original sale in place, unreversed?

Even though I didn't understand the thing about the credit cards, I say Hey, I didn't know this thing about the credit cards.  In the future, I'd be happy to pay with Zelle, Venmo, or personal check.  Are you set up to accept those forms of payment?

Sellers go away with the book and the check.  Someone runs up and screams, HEY EVERYONE!  NAMORA IS GOING TO BE IN THE BLACK PANTHER MOVIE NEXT YEAR!

I wait for the seller to come back, but never hear from them again.  Much later, someone tells me they have consigned the book to an auction house.  What I thought was pretty serious damage appears magically fixed.

This part is pure speculation on my part, but maybe sellers thought, This is now a problem book.  Instead of reselling it on our own site, let's consign it to a dumping ground auction that doesn't report to GPA.  There will be no record of the sale.  It will fit right in with the books with problematic back covers consignors hope to pass off to unseasoned and undiscerning collectors. Plus, now certain rumors regarding Namora are spreading, maybe it will sell for a lot more than we got from that other guy. (Not saying this happened, but maybe it did.  If this book had been, say, Grape Ape #11, I think I'd be holding the book now.)

Now, what were my mistakes?  A mistake can only be judged in the context of a desired outcome.  If I wanted to keep the book, was it a mistake to hand it back to the seller, and signal acceptance of the return idea?  That is blatantly obvious.

Was it a mistake to give the refund check back?  Only if they are never, ever, going to give me my money back.  Many people here say the sellers are good people.  I believe those members, and good people would not keep my money indefinitely.  Therefore, I'm confident that handing the check back will not end up having been a mistake.

What was your communication with the seller? Did you send the book back for review, or did you request a refund? Once you request a refund, the seller has no obligation to offer the item to you again.

However, if the book is being listed at auction in the same slab—without being re-graded—that should tell you everything you need to know about the seller's character.

[Heronext]

6 hours ago, jimbo_7071 said:

Am I to understand that this dealer listed the book in a Comiclink auction without having it regraded even though he knew that it had sustained damage in the slab?

I have used the term "damage" to describe what happened to the book.  I believed it had been damaged at the time, it could have been damaged.  In fact I could not see the staple through the staple hole when viewing it from the spine side, so I thought, 100%, this cover has become detached.

What may have happened is the following: Imagine you take a legal-size piece of paper, fold it in half, and put a staple in the "spine".  Then, pinch the spine on either side of the staple, and make a tear in the "cover" 1/4 to 1/2 inches long, one just above the staple, one just below, through both the "front" and "back".  Then, poke the staple with your index finger so hard that it "inverts".  It is still attached to the cover, but has some play/range of motion afforded by the pair of tears.

That may be what have happened here.  There could have been additional damage done when the staple was inverted (extension to tears) that would reduce the grade, or maybe not.  What I can say is that I personally would not be comfortable selling this on to someone else without having it regraded.  A professional seller who has dealt in tens of thousands of transactions and has perhaps seen this type of thing happen before?  I can see see how they might be comfortable with the "pop-into-place-and-resell" maneuver.

Edited July 18, 2021 by Heronext

[Heronext]

6 hours ago, jimbo_7071 said:

Did you request a refund when you sent the book back, or did you send it back to be reviewed? If you didn't ask for a refund, then the book still belongs to you and the dealer had no business sending you a refund check.

In my convention example above, when I say "say" it refers to something that was communicated via email.  I don't doubt that sellers believed I was returning the book for a refund.  I did not know this would come down to a "possession is 9/10ths of the law" sort of scenario.

As people have said, seller had the right to keep the book upon return back to them.  I'm not disputing that.  However, seller never informed me they had decided that, and that it could not be offered to me again.  It was left open-ended.

Edited July 18, 2021 by Heronext