Welcome CGC to the world of pulps" CGC will be grading them. 7 7

[Mmehdy]

New President of CGC has confirmed in a interview that CGC will grade pulps and will still award the "blue" unrestored label to pulps which are trimmed and take that into account in the overall grading of the issue. As a  pulp collector of the 1970's on this is an earthquake development  our the pulp collecting world. Which quite recently has been stirred up by the Big 3 auction houses now getting into separate auctions with HA leading the way, CC following the leader with a current auction right now, and other will follow. CC or ComicConnect just announced today that will be attending  "pulpfest".

 Watch for new collectors and investors to enter the pulp market now that CGC certified pulps as collectable and gradable.

 Any thoughts?

Edited July 20, 2021 by Mmehdy

[Funnybooks]

Game changing news 100 years in the making. Extra pulp please. 

[Polonsky]

On 7/20/2021 at 3:42 PM, Funnybooks said:

Game changing news 100 years in the making. Extra pulp please. 

Nice to see your posts and collection expending into the pulpoverse

[Funnybooks]

On 7/20/2021 at 5:26 PM, Polonsky said:

Nice to see your posts and collection expending into the pulpoverse

I'm more of an apple guy but I'm loving oranges too

[Polonsky]

On 7/20/2021 at 7:03 PM, Funnybooks said:

I'm more of an apple guy but I'm loving oranges too

I’ve done well with Apple, but pulp is much more fun!

[aardvark88]

Sad that trimming is Cgc blue label but how else are we going to avoid S.P.S. (shaken pulp syndrome), and rampant chipping flakes in the slab.

[Polonsky]

On 7/20/2021 at 8:12 PM, aardvark88 said:

Sad that trimming is Cgc blue label but how else are we going to avoid S.P.S. (shaken pulp syndrome), and rampant chipping flakes in the slab.

I’m fine with a blue label and a little note that says trimmed. It will be tricky, but I’m curious to see how they do it.

[OtherEric]

I tend to think blue labeling trimmed books is the right call... it's just too common on pulps to PLOD them all.  I do think it should be hammered pretty hard, though.

[detective35]

They’ve been working on the pulp slabbing details for months and months.

The most challenging thing was to design a holder and an interior that would protect all different sizes of overhangs no matter what side they were more prominent, front or back cover.

TRIMMING

I’ll chat about this, because somebody mentioned it.

In talking a few times with Matt about pulp slabbing, we did discuss trimming.

I really can’t tell you anymore as Matt, would not disclose any details.  He was just doing his due diligence and talking to people no pulps and possible slabbing in general.

However, personally I feel that there has to be some notation of trimming or else you’d have every clown/scumbag trimming off the overhangs, just to get a higher grade.

For me personally trimming is one of the  worst things, but maybe not as bad for people coming in from Comics because they are used to having comic books factory trimmed.

A blue label is fine, but I personally feel that there needs to be a clear notation saying “hand trimmed” because many people will Not know whether they were hand trimmed at home, or factory trimmed.

Another reason to keep it out of the purple label is sometimes trimming is extremely difficult two squad were determined even if you’re an experienced Collector and seller.

The problem is when trying to identify trimming you can have the same issue of the same title in the same month of different sizes of overhangs on top bottom etc. and most the time you can tell if it’s trimmed, even if it’s well done because there should be an overhang on either the top or bottom if they were the type of pulps that had overhangs.  However I do have pulps that were bought right off the rack and put away as a handful of Shadows from 1937-39 from the Strasser or the Yakima collection,and they had very little to no overhang on the top and bottom, and I know the families, persons weren’t taking them out of the stacks and trimming a handful of books.  At first appearance they seem trimmed, but they are not, even if other copies of the same month, do have an overhang on the top or bottom.  The difference with Pulps is that there was little to no quality control during that time period.

Sometimes trimming is easy to spot, and sometimes it is just really difficult to identify accurately, even if you have handled thousands of high-grade Pulps.

Probably noting different levels of trimming is would be good to do, and yes the grade should be hammered.

If it’s a real bad trim like with the scissors maybe put it in a purple label;  all this is for Matt to decide. 

Why note Trimming

A good example of this was the shadow “the partners of peril”  that sold at heritage In the last pulp auction. (a few years back a group of  shadows from 1935 to 1939 …including this copy of the partners of peril …were auctioned individually  on eBay individually, they were all trimmed right to the cover edge and sold for next to nothing because no one wanted severely trimmed books).  

That issue should have large overhangs, but they were severely trimmed right to the cover edge, and that is severe when it’s on a Street and Smith Shadow pulp from 1936.  

Heritage to their credit, accurately noted “trimmed”, however when it’s below in the general description,  newcomers to the hobby have no idea whether that means It was trimmed at home, or it was factory trimmed, or whether that’s acceptable or un acceptable.  The result is a severely trimmed book sold for nearly a $1000.  

That is an example where slabbing would be good for that book in order to describe the type and level of trimming In order to give the buyer detailed information.

I’m sure that these are all details that Matt will figure out,  and I’m sure he’ll do a great job!

 

Edited July 21, 2021 by detective35

[Bookery]

On 7/21/2021 at 2:33 AM, detective35 said:

Sometimes trimming is easy to spot, and sometimes it is just really difficult to identify accurately, even if you have handled thousands of high-grade Pulps.

 

Weird Tales can be especially tricky from certain eras.  Often they only had trimming on the bottom edge, but this can vary enormously.  The overhang also seemed to dwindle over time to the point they were eventually factory-trimmed.  I agree that pulp trimming is not the same as comic trimming.  There is no reason to trim a comic other than to make it look better than it is.  However, in some ways, pulps were meant to be trimmed by their owners.  They were manufactured cheaply and un-trimmed, and many people just read them and tossed them like with most magazines.  But those that kept them often trimmed them both to protect them from further tearing and to make them line-up on a bookshelf.  This is a holdover from the 18th and 19th centuries wherein customers would often order their books from the publisher un-bound and un-trimmed so that they could have them bound in the binding of their choice to match their library, etc.

[detective35]

Tim,

This is one area that has to be handled carefully.  No matter what the reason trimming has to be noted on the label in detail as well as any other type of alteration done.  The consumer/buyer has the right to know.

 I understand what you are saying about the multiple reasons for old-timers trimming, and your outstanding historical insight about hardcovers etc., specifically that were sent out  with the buyers left to trim the covers to hardcovers to fit their library, and I have heard in some cases even the interior pages had to be trimmed as well.

However hardcovers are different than Pulps, which are different than Comics.  At no time have I ever heard or read in all my research that companies manufactured, then sent out pulps with overhangs, with the expectations that people would trim them to fit in their library.

Whether a person feels that pulps were meant to be trimmed or not, motive can have no bearing when it comes to professional grading.  They can be left in a blue label but the degree of trimming has to be noted, as it is a defect.

I’m not saying that you disagree with noting the trimming, but I am going to list why identifying trimming is so important and thus noting it.

Yes I have heard that reasons that old-timers trimmed Pulps, so that they better fit in a bookcase, etc. Or that they didn’t do it to make it look better or to deceive.  Guess what, they should have had stored the damn things flat!!  That’s like having a Painting or an expensive movie poster and cutting it down to 3/4 of the size and saying that’s OK, because at the time that was the standard size of most frames. I’ve seen that before.

I’ve heard a similar argument with the reason why people taped the inside covers of the overhangs…. just simply  protect the overhangs.  Again It was common place, but still has yo be noted.  I know this is different than the historical context of hardcovers being sent out consumers having to trim the covers etc.

On the flipside I think we can still blue label trimmed pulp ,with the degree of trimming noted, and Matt can decide how it  impacts the grade.  In my opinion there certainly has to be some type of impact on the grade, because when money comes into play, you could  have people simply trimming books to make them look better.

Once you determine on whether the book is trimmed or not and the severity of it (which is not easy and some cases as I mentioned in the previous post), then you can note it on the label of the slab.  If the Trimming is so slight that they not sure whether it was done or not, then give it the benefit of the doubt and don’t note anything.

In any case, the marketplace will ultimately determine the value of a trimmed or altered pulp.

Dwight

Edited July 21, 2021 by detective35

[asimovpulps]

On 7/21/2021 at 8:42 AM, detective35 said:

On the flipside I think we can still blue label trimmed pulp ,with the degree of trimming noted, and Matt can decide how it  impacts the grade.  In my opinion there certainly has to be some type of impact on the grade

Just spit balling...but my name also happens to be Matt and it sounds like you all are waiting for my decision ...

I wonder if there's a hybrid approach between Blue Label and PLOD, where you grade the pulp first without regard to trimming and then note TRIMMED on the actual grade sticker and some notation of degree (somewhat similar to the APPARENT and CONSERVED marks on PLOD slabs). This opens up the full range of grades to allow for more nuance in grading, but still clearly calls out the trimming as a defect without the negative connotations of PLOD.

Assuming trimming is as common as it sounds, the alternative approach where trimming just caps out at a certain grade (call it VG) would force trimmed issues into a very tight grading band that might create issues in itself.

Agreed @detective35 that the masses will ultimately decide relative value. 

Caveat: my bias is as a low/mid grade collector, so may be wildly different than collecting high grade

 

[ThothAmon]

Great news.  I’ve got a few worthy of slabbing.  The market will never be the same. 
 

[htp]

Is trimming really that common? It sounds like that's the reason to blue label them, but in my experience, I see maybe one trimmed issue for every ~5-10 with overhang in various states of decay. That might just be because the trimmed ones aren't (weren't?) traded as much, or my specific experience, so I'd be curious what the pros think.

I can definitely see the argument for just not wanting to deal with it though. This is always #1 in the list of reasons why CGC will never slab pulps.

[Funnybooks]

On 7/21/2021 at 3:54 PM, ThothAmon said:

Great news.  I’ve got a few worthy of slabbing.  The market will never be the same. 
 

I see you've got a type

[MSGComics]

NICE!!!

[Bookery]

On 7/21/2021 at 11:42 AM, detective35 said:

Tim,

This is one area that has to be handled carefully.  No matter what the reason trimming has to be noted on the label in detail as well as any other type of alteration done.  The consumer/buyer has the right to know.

Of course.  I've always noted it and down-graded accordingly.  I've addressed trimming in my guide.  I've also just posted about what I'm going to call "block trimming" over in the "are pulps the new big thing" thread.

On 7/21/2021 at 11:42 AM, detective35 said:

 However hardcovers are different than Pulps, which are different than Comics.  At no time have I ever heard or read in all my research that companies manufactured, then sent out pulps with overhangs, with the expectations that people would trim them to fit in their library.

I'll clarify.  No, pulp publishers didn't intend that you do anything with a pulp other than buy it from them.  After that, they wouldn't care if you wall-papered your house with it.  Why should they?  I meant to suggest that it wasn't a new idea for pulp collectors to trim their pulps, as trimming and binding of books were not uncommon in the not-so-distant past at the time.

On 7/21/2021 at 11:42 AM, detective35 said:

Yes I have heard that reasons that old-timers trimmed Pulps, so that they better fit in a bookcase, etc. Or that they didn’t do it to make it look better or to deceive.  Guess what, they should have had stored the damn things flat!!

I strongly disagree.  They should have done with their property whatever made them happy.  Most of this trimming was done back when the pulps were purchased off the stands in the 30s-50s.  There was no reason to believe they had any collectibility any more than last week's newspaper did.  There was also no way they could have predicted that a number of these stories would ever be reprinted.  So they preserved them for their own future enjoyment, not with some eye to preserving them for top dollars down the road.  Obviously, if someone does it today, they are likely misinformed about the impact it has.  But back when this was often done, even up through the '60s and '70s... few pulps had any real significant value.

On 7/21/2021 at 11:42 AM, detective35 said:

 That’s like having a Painting or an expensive movie poster and cutting it down to 3/4 of the size and saying that’s OK, because at the time that was the standard size of most frames. I’ve seen that before.

I’ve heard a similar argument with the reason why people taped the inside covers of the overhangs…. just simply  protect the overhangs.  Again It was common place, but still has yo be noted.  I know this is different than the historical context of hardcovers being sent out consumers having to trim the covers etc.

Well, the hardcovers are indeed different, because you would trim it only to have it bound.  Pretty easy to tell a privately bound copy from a publisher's edition (assuming the publisher even printed their own binding, which wasn't always the case).

 

[detective35]

On 7/21/2021 at 4:09 PM, Bookery said:

Of course.  I've always noted it and down-graded accordingly.  I've addressed trimming in my guide.  I've also just posted about what I'm going to call "block trimming" over in the "are pulps the new big thing" thread.

Absolutely Tim.  

I just want to ,make sure that the trimming is identified on the label and that new collectors know that this is not factory trimmed, it was done at home.

 

On 7/21/2021 at 4:09 PM, Bookery said:

I'll clarify.  No, pulp publishers didn't intend that you do anything with a pulp other than buy it from them.  After that, they wouldn't care if you wall-papered your house with it.  Why should they?  I meant to suggest that it wasn't a new idea for pulp collectors to trim their pulps, as trimming and binding of books were not uncommon in the not-so-distant past at the time.

I agree, trimming has always been done, and in the past, for many different reasons.

On 7/21/2021 at 4:09 PM, Bookery said:

I strongly disagree.  They should have done with their property whatever made them happy.  Most of this trimming was done back when the pulps were purchased off the stands in the 30s-50s.  There was no reason to believe they had any collectibility any more than last week's newspaper did.  There was also no way they could have predicted that a number of these stories would ever be reprinted.  So they preserved them for their own future enjoyment, not with some eye to preserving them for top dollars down the road.  Obviously, if someone does it today, they are likely misinformed about the impact it has.  But back when this was often done, even up through the '60s and '70s... few pulps had any real significant value.

Well, the hardcovers are indeed different, because you would trim it only to have it bound.  Pretty easy to tell a privately bound copy from a publisher's edition (assuming the publisher even printed their own binding, which wasn't always the case).

 

I think we are saying the same thing.  

I agree that collectors in the past could do whatever they wanted to do with their own books.  Hell, how many Mile-High's were given a dot of color touch back in the early 80's because at that time it was not that big of a deal.

I think we are on the same page. I just want to make sure that if we blue label a trimmed pulp, the grade is affected.  If it is a ridiculous trim with a scissor causing major damage, then purple label it.  I just want to make sure that the new collectors coming into the market (especially the comic market where all comics are factory trimmed) know that trimming  is a form of restoration or considered a defect and how this differs from factory trimming.  I agree that slight trimming done well should not be hit as hard with the pulps as comics, but it still needs tp be noted in detail.  Having this clearly stated on the label and the grade affected is important when money comes into play, if not,  you could have people trimming books to enhance them, or create a narrative where trimmed books command the same value as untrimmed. 

 

 

Edited July 21, 2021 by detective35

[asimovpulps]

Curious what folks think about Pulps without overhangs which are trimmed? Should they be treated the same/differently as those with overhangs?

Untrimmed, no overhang:

Trimmed (look at story title on bottom right):

 

 

[Bookery]

On 7/21/2021 at 8:00 PM, asimovpulps said:

Curious what folks think about Pulps without overhangs which are trimmed? Should they be treated the same/differently as those with overhangs?

Untrimmed, no overhang:

Trimmed (look at story title on bottom right):

 

 

This appears to be the sort of "block-trimming" I referenced earlier... although generally I've seen it done on top or bottom in order to even out the height (presumably) to match other books on a shelf.  Not sure, other than a shallow bookcase, why one would hack off the right edge?  I mark on my notes, when putting these out in the shop, as being "heavily trimmed", and give them a "good" (2.0) valuation at best.  I see these as damaged rather than restored, so I think a universal grade is in order, just a low grade with appropriate description.  I don't believe this could be a production mistake, as I'm pretty sure the covers were cut separately from the interior pages.