Anybody know the story on the supposed fake Bethlehems? 1 1

[RareHighGrade]

On 10/15/2021 at 9:23 PM, Aman619 said:

On the surface that’s fairly correct.  But the story I’ve been told was a bit more complicated and less black and white of an attempted swindle.  It was between two big old school collectors, exchanging  pedigree copies for their collection. 
 

this was back in the simple olde timey days when just a few guys cared for or coveted or even were aware of of pedigree” comics or collections. 
 

the deal was at an impasse so a few nice copies were marked with Church codes to swap to make the deal conclude. 
 

That’s my memory of what happened. But don’t think I have all the details, 

Not sure this version makes it any better or more forgivable, especially if the tampering was never disclosed in subsequent sales.

[adamstrange]

On 10/16/2021 at 12:41 PM, buttock said:

Well that's kinda the issue.  The Weird Mysteries 4 in HA has the alleged fake stamp. 

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/weird-mysteries-4-bethlehem-pedigree-gillmor-1953-cgc-vf-75-off-white-pages/p/7248-36026.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515

CGC's pedigree recognition has been questionable at times, especially in the 2nd gen label era.  There was an Action in the last HA signature auction that was labeled the San Francisco copy inaccurately.    

I could see the "different stamp" theory working if there was some consistency, but there are other books from the same era and same publisher with the appropriate stamp.  In fact there are 3 other stamped Bethlehems currently at auction from 1953, all of which have the appropriate stamp, and typically a date stamp on the back cover also, which the WM 4 doesn't have.  Heritage has almost 100 1953 Bethlehems in their archive.  I just went through around 30 of them, and of all of them that have a stamp (most of them) they're all the correct stamp.  

Here's a book from the same month, 4/53, which has the correct stamp.  

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/witches-tales-18-bethlehem-pedigree-harvey-1953-cgc-vf-nm-90-off-white-to-white-pages-lee-elias-cover-howard-nostrand/a/14102-17784.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515#

Definitely doesn't smell right.  

I have also heard of fake Bethlehem stamps but don't recall where I read it.  I have seen a few fakes in the wild.  In all cases, they did not look like real Bethlehem copies.

[N e r V]

I would think as brought out with such little to gain to begin with someone going to all the trouble to create a duplicate stamp would have at the very least checked, and double checked things like spacing, spelling, etc. on your stamp.

Still I never underestimate stupidity.

On the possible misspelling being legit and having grown up in a era when stamps were still used it wasn’t that uncommon to have more than one stamp. A couple of the used books stores I went to that also carried new comics had several for employees to use. Same with those grease pens for writing dates. I used them for my address stamps on envelopes at one time before switching to preprinted labels and finally printed envelopes. I had a few stamps and my first one I got back from the shop that made them spelled it color vs colour on my name. They sent me a replacement but I don’t see it as a stretch one of the people helping me at the time using it. 
 

I do like the dumb counterfeit story better though. Has more swarmyness in it with someone deep down in their basement defiling high grade books unnecessarily…

[DanCooper]

Has anyone ever seen a "EJ Kery/Bethlehem" stamp on any Bethlehem books beyond 1957 or 1958? (I think they started using a straight date stamp - no more store name/location - after this time frame on some copies. Other Beths have no stamps at all)

The reason I ask is I haven't seen any Kery stamps after this period, and you would think if anyone was going to fake the Kery Bethlehem stamps, they would have used it on the key Marvel superhero books of the early 1960s (many that had more than one copy in the legitimate Bethlehem collection)

[jimbo_7071]

On 10/16/2021 at 12:41 PM, buttock said:

Well that's kinda the issue.  The Weird Mysteries 4 in HA has the alleged fake stamp. 

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/weird-mysteries-4-bethlehem-pedigree-gillmor-1953-cgc-vf-75-off-white-pages/p/7248-36026.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515

CGC's pedigree recognition has been questionable at times, especially in the 2nd gen label era.  There was an Action in the last HA signature auction that was labeled the San Francisco copy inaccurately.    

I could see the "different stamp" theory working if there was some consistency, but there are other books from the same era and same publisher with the appropriate stamp.  In fact there are 3 other stamped Bethlehems currently at auction from 1953, all of which have the appropriate stamp, and typically a date stamp on the back cover also, which the WM 4 doesn't have.  Heritage has almost 100 1953 Bethlehems in their archive.  I just went through around 30 of them, and of all of them that have a stamp (most of them) they're all the correct stamp.  

Here's a book from the same month, 4/53, which has the correct stamp.  

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/witches-tales-18-bethlehem-pedigree-harvey-1953-cgc-vf-nm-90-off-white-to-white-pages-lee-elias-cover-howard-nostrand/a/14102-17784.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515#

Definitely doesn't smell right.  

I seem to recall that they had a "San Francisco" pedigree notation on a Fiction House book with a cover date well past 1945, which is when the San Francisco pedigree is widely acknowledged to have ended.

 

As for the Bethlehem books, it's tough to know. If fakes were put into circulation, it probably happened around the time the pedigree surfaced, when there was some buzz around the collection.

[jimbo_7071]

This is slightly off topic, but does anyone know who printed the counterfeit Cerebus #1s? I don't really collect BA books, but I'm curious because back in the day I heard that it was somebody in Michigan (which is where I'm from).

[N e r V]

On 10/16/2021 at 1:55 PM, szav said:

Or a smart counterfeiter knowing the misspelling would call into question why anyone who faked it would misspell it, thus giving it cover as a common mishap in custom stamps of the day.  Kinda like that doctor a few years ago who was convicted of murder, where his wife’s corpse was found a few hundred feet away from the house, but his defense had been more or less “Im a doctor therefore too smart to have done something so dumb, surely if I did it I’d have done a better job concealing it.”

Didn’t work to well for Harrison Ford though…

 

[electricprune]

On 10/16/2021 at 3:34 PM, DanCooper said:

Has anyone ever seen a "EJ Kery/Bethlehem" stamp on any Bethlehem books beyond 1957 or 1958? (I think they started using a straight date stamp - no more store name/location - after this time frame on some copies. Other Beths have no stamps at all)

The reason I ask is I haven't seen any Kery stamps after this period, and you would think if anyone was going to fake the Kery Bethlehem stamps, they would have used it on the key Marvel superhero books of the early 1960s (many that had more than one copy in the legitimate Bethlehem collection)

Old request, but I have one from Dec. ‘57. This wasn’t advertised as a Bethlehem Pedigree, so I can’t say for sure that it is. I’m not even sure if the Pedigree had Romance books included.

[buttock]

On 8/10/2023 at 7:12 AM, electricprune said:

Old request, but I have one from Dec. ‘57. This wasn’t advertised as a Bethlehem Pedigree, so I can’t say for sure that it is. I’m not even sure if the Pedigree had Romance books included.

Interesting.  Seems like a legitimate stamp.  @storypapers any thoughts?

[jimbo_7071]

On 8/10/2023 at 9:12 AM, electricprune said:

Old request, but I have one from Dec. ‘57. This wasn’t advertised as a Bethlehem Pedigree, so I can’t say for sure that it is. I’m not even sure if the Pedigree had Romance books included.

The grade looks a bit low, so it could just be that a non-pedigree comic sold through the same shop happened to survive. I don't know whether a comprehensive list of Bethlehem books exists.

[electricprune]

 Pretty sure I have at least one more from the same time period with the stamp too. 

[october]

Here's a fake stamp on my BB 115. It's nice enough that it could have plausibly been a pedigree, but CGC caught it and did not label it a Beth. I think the faker caught on to the misspelling and tried to cover that up with smeared, multiple or partial stamps to mask it. I have seen a few fakes with similar partial stamps, but I have not seen a real Bethlehem with the same issues.

[sfcityduck]

Just curious

On 8/10/2023 at 7:59 AM, jimbo_7071 said:

The grade looks a bit low, so it could just be that a non-pedigree comic sold through the same shop happened to survive. I don't know whether a comprehensive list of Bethlehem books exists.

If the stamp was applied by a store, how do you know whether a book is part of a pedigree or not?  You can't just say low grade are not pedigrees but high grade are, because its not the grade that matters but the OO.

[adamstrange]

On 8/10/2023 at 1:30 PM, sfcityduck said:

Just curious

If the stamp was applied by a store, how do you know whether a book is part of a pedigree or not?  You can't just say low grade are not pedigrees but high grade are, because its not the grade that matters but the OO.

Pedigree determination is often difficult so CGC determines pedigree to the best of their ability.  When they aren't confident, they won't assign it. 

[vaultkeeper]

Here's half of a Bethlehem stamp on a Tomb of Terror #7 CGC 7.5.

 

[DanCooper]

On 8/10/2023 at 9:12 AM, electricprune said:

Old request, but I have one from Dec. ‘57. This wasn’t advertised as a Bethlehem Pedigree, so I can’t say for sure that it is. I’m not even sure if the Pedigree had Romance books included

Thank you!

That's probably the latest date on a EJ Kery/Bethlehem stamp I've seen.

It would probably get Bethlehem pedigree status if submitted to CGC.

There were romance books (as well as all genres represented) in the Beth collection.

From the Heritage archives (not mine)

[electricprune]

On 8/11/2023 at 8:23 AM, DanCooper said:

Thank you!

That's probably the latest date on a EJ Kery/Bethlehem stamp I've seen.

It would probably get Bethlehem pedigree status if submitted to CGC.

There were romance books (as well as all genres represented) in the Beth collection.

From the Heritage archives (not mine)

Here's another one that goes into '58.

[Dr. Balls]

Does anyone have any Bethlehem books that have ink smearing on the front cover? It looks like the "real" stamps are clean and were allowed a few extra seconds to dry (at least in the examples I have seen), where the "fakes" are smeared, which would indicate that something lay on top of it immediately after stamping to smear the ink.

Assuming that someone was stamping them as they came in, you'd flip the cover over, stamp it, then set another one on top, cover face down and stamp it - repeat. If the smudges ones were true Bethlehems, I would assume that there would be others of the same misspelled stamp that would have ink smear on the front covers.

[Johnny545]

On 8/10/2023 at 9:09 AM, october said:

Here's a fake stamp on my BB 115. It's nice enough that it could have plausibly been a pedigree, but CGC caught it and did not label it a Beth. I think the faker caught on to the misspelling and tried to cover that up with smeared, multiple or partial stamps to mask it. I have seen a few fakes with similar partial stamps, but I have not seen a real Bethlehem with the same issues.

How did it end up grading? Very solid looking book.

[october]

On 8/11/2023 at 3:32 PM, Johnny545 said:

How did it end up grading? Very solid looking book.

7.0