Not OK, really not ok... 4 4

[Randall Ries]

On 11/5/2021 at 1:46 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

I know people who have triple what I have at CGC currently, and they are furious.

I don't give the fuzzy crack of a rat's heinie if they are furious. They are their own problem. They have created the problem for themselves and other collectors who only submit one or two books.

[badback83]

On 11/24/2021 at 10:23 AM, Randall Ries said:

fuzzy crack of a rat's heinie

[Randall Ries]

On 11/10/2021 at 1:47 PM, Ride the Tiger said:

Honestly because they suck at it so much, they should stop giving out estimates for TATs. They're sucking at alot of things these days come to think of it. 

That's sort of how I have been looking at it as well. But then I started thinking about the profiteers who send in 1,000 books per month. What I imagine to be pretty valueless books just so they can sell them for x10 of what they are worth because they are graded.

So, if these sellers are doing THAT and there are a LOT of them doing it, they really have no room to complain about TAT. It's them who are creating the problem. If I have a raw Batman #230 and I would like to have it graded, this situation is something I would avoid. I get to sit and wait months for one book while a profiteer sends in 1k books, then the same people complain about TAT? They are the problem.

CGC isn't going to turn business away, obviously. But isn't it reasonable to assume that books with actual value are being damaged because everyone has to step up the pace to accommodate dealers selling worthless modern books? I always felt like the grading process SHOULD take a little time. So books don't get mishandled and damaged. Or lost. But if they have to process 10,000 useless books to every 100 books that are actually relevant and worth a good deal of money, I can see why the people involved in the process might start to get a little jaded.

[Lord Gemini]

On 11/24/2021 at 9:18 AM, Randall Ries said:

What are you submitting? Modern junk to get your 9.8's? Or books that are actually worth something? There seems to be a clash of cultures going on here. You seem to have sent in almost 1,000 books that are likely worth zip while someone else sent in one Avengers #4 he would like to get back before he dies.

That is certainly your privilege, but I would postulate it is dealers that send in 1,000 books at a time per month that probably aren't important to anyone except them and their income while actually valuable and collectable books are getting damaged, suffering interminable wait times or both just so dealers don't have to go get a real job.

I guess I don't have too much sympathy for dealers who flood a grading company with brand new drek that will never be worth diddly at 1,000 submissions per month per dealer. It would seem as though they are the main problem with TAT if this is actually the case.

And I don't have much sympathy for people who judge others based on what they're submitting, and frankly you don't have any idea what brand new "drek" will be valuable down the line and what won't.

[Randall Ries]

On 11/24/2021 at 7:31 PM, Shawn Everidge said:

And I don't have much sympathy for people who judge others based on what they're submitting, and frankly you don't have any idea what brand new "drek" will be valuable down the line and what won't.

People can submit whatever they want. I am postulating they have created the very problem they are complaining about. And it's a pretty good guess most modern stuff that's being submitted is trash. Only looking for that 9.8. Yeah, it's a judgment call and I'm making it, see?

[MetalPSI]

Yet, still calling it drek

[Lord Gemini]

On 11/24/2021 at 8:03 PM, Randall Ries said:

People can submit whatever they want. I am postulating they have created the very problem they are complaining about. And it's a pretty good guess most modern stuff that's being submitted is trash. Only looking for that 9.8. Yeah, it's a judgment call and I'm making it, see?

I'm well aware of the judgment being made. I can judge too.

[bayesian_acolyte]

The reason that more books are being sent in to get graded is that there is more demand for graded books. I don't think it makes much sense to blame those who are helping fulfill that demand. The delays are a predictable consequence of the rapid increase in demand and it's not really anyone's fault (yet), at least on the supply side.

I wouldn't really blame the demand side either. In every rarified goods collecting community there are people who look down on those who collect goods that are less rarified than the goods they collect. To me this blaming of those collecting or helping fulfill demand for "trash" or "drek" is awfully close to elitism and snobbery. 

Edited November 26, 2021 by bayesian_acolyte

[toro]

Just to throw my 2 cents in.  We have been calling everything from the 1990s to today's date modern drek for years.  It is not a sign of elitism or snobbery.  I still buy modern drek every Wednesday at my LCS to read and enjoy.  Every so often I laugh and drag out one of those drek books to send to CGC because it has now become a hot book(Young Avengers 1, Goon 1, etc.. )  We all collect comics.  Not exactly a glamorous collectible.  But this old time collector is bothered more by people who are investors who are only into it for the profit and nothing else.  It bothers me when I hear some say they have never even read a comic, yet they invest in them to flip for a quick dime.  But my God they cry every time CGC does not give their book a 9.8.  If they never read a book they probably don't always check to see if the book has some internal problem keeping it out of the 9.8 grade. 

[Lord Gemini]

On 11/25/2021 at 11:55 PM, toro said:

Just to throw my 2 cents in.  We have been calling everything from the 1990s to today's date modern drek for years.  It is not a sign of elitism or snobbery.  I still buy modern drek every Wednesday at my LCS to read and enjoy.  Every so often I laugh and drag out one of those drek books to send to CGC because it has now become a hot book(Young Avengers 1, Goon 1, etc.. )  We all collect comics.  Not exactly a glamorous collectible.  But this old time collector is bothered more by people who are investors who are only into it for the profit and nothing else.  It bothers me when I hear some say they have never even read a comic, yet they invest in them to flip for a quick dime.  But my God they cry every time CGC does not give their book a 9.8.  If they never read a book they probably don't always check to see if the book has some internal problem keeping it out of the 9.8 grade. 

I don't know. I think it's a bit elitist and dismissive of some of the great stories that have come out of the last three decades to call them drek. I don't mind people that try to flip new stuff for a profit as long as the regular customer can get their hands on the issues (limiting sales of a specific comic at your LCS helps), because there is still a lot of risk involved. More power to them. I do some spec, but the volatility of the market keeps me from diving in too much because of the stress and money involved.

[bayesian_acolyte]

@toro Just to be clear, I have no problem with the term "drek" itself. I've used the term myself regarding books I own. My issue is when less valuable books are used as a scapegoat for TAT issues and CGC damaging books, such as these quotes:

On 11/24/2021 at 12:05 PM, Randall Ries said:

But isn't it reasonable to assume that books with actual value are being damaged because everyone has to step up the pace to accommodate dealers selling worthless modern books?

It's them who are creating the problem... They are the problem.

If people want to pay their hard earned cash to buy these graded books, then they are by definition not worthless. All this "profit seeking" talk misses the mark. The job of a comic dealer is helping people get books that they are willing to pay for, and I don't think they deserve vitriol for just doing their job. That demand is going to be filled one way or another.

One dealer choosing not to send in 1000 books isn't really going to make any difference because it's a tiny percent of overall submissions. If all the dealers got together and formed a big cartel to judge which books are Truly Worthy of being submitted to CGC and which aren't, that might make a difference if they were sufficiently snobby. But it would be elitist and go against the interests of comic collectors. 

[Randall Ries]

On 11/26/2021 at 4:25 PM, bayesian_acolyte said:

@toro Just to be clear, I have no problem with the term "drek" itself. I've used the term myself regarding books I own. My issue is when less valuable books are used as a scapegoat for TAT issues and CGC damaging books, such as these quotes:

If people want to pay their hard earned cash to buy these graded books, then they are by definition not worthless. All this "profit seeking" talk misses the mark. The job of a comic dealer is helping people get books that they are willing to pay for, and I don't think they deserve vitriol for just doing their job. That demand is going to be filled one way or another.

One dealer choosing not to send in 1000 books isn't really going to make any difference because it's a tiny percent of overall submissions. If all the dealers got together and formed a big cartel to judge which books are Truly Worthy of being submitted to CGC and which aren't, that might make a difference if they were sufficiently snobby. But it would be elitist and go against the interests of comic collectors. 

A scapegoat, eh? How about just getting your head around the idea that flooding CGC with common, frightfully easy to obtain books to grade thousands at a clip consistently is very likely the PROBLEM. Unless we other collectors are sending in all our Bat 1's, Supes 1's and thousands of runs of silver age Spiderman's and Fantastic Four's and are gumming up the works? Well, how about it? As I have said many times: People can spend their money any way they wish. I don't care. And if someone is paying the bills and selling their moderns, well good for them. Beats real work. And when I say that I find the writing in modern comics lacking or outright terrible, there is plenty of evidence to support that. Along with the artwork.

But if that's someones thing, if they like substandard, then that's ok by me, too. If that makes me "elitist", then I take it as a compliment. I do have an appreciation of superior craftsmanship and pride of excellence. And know what excellence is, BTW. You want Frank Robbins or Bob Brown or you want Alex Ross and Neal Adams? Particularly in the US, the bar is set so low it seems like most people have no idea what quality is anymore. They only seem to realize it isn't quality when the "deal" they thought they were getting on that outdoor patio furniture was actually because it was made out of garbage and fell apart when subjected to the use they expected they could get out of it.

So, maybe someone could provide the actual statistics. If there are statements flying around here like "I have almost 1,000 modern books waiting to be graded and that is MY USUAL MONTHLY NUMBER and I am not alone in this I know MANY people who have MORE submitted and they are angry", I would like to know how many people are sending those in, the numbers v how many people are sending in actual collectible books in the Gold, Silver and Bronze genres? Is someone sending in thousands of silver age books per month consistently? Or bronze?

Because I have been puzzled all these months reading about damage to peoples books. That Avengers 4 thing by Phil the Governor set me off more than it did him, it seemed. WHY would a company who prides themselves on grading and customer service suddenly experience the damages and seeming lack of QC alla sudden? Contempt? No. Inept? Don't think so. It's a painstaking process that requires TIME and thought. A certain deftness. It isn't like Laverne and Shirley at the brewery. But that was suddenly focused for me when someone in this thread mentioned now many books they send in per month. And he wasn't alone. Apparently MANY dealers do this and more.

Because my point has simply been if MANY dealers are sending in thousands of modern books per month, then sitting on pins and needles and citing "My way of life and my primary income source", they are the ones gumming the works. They want them graded to sell the 9.8's, I have to imagine. To overcharge for books that probably aren't worth what they are asking. Charge $25 for a book that'll never be worth more than $3.99. Versus an Avengers #4 which has actual historic and financial value and is worth more than your monthly submissions by far and in every way imaginable.

And my point - if this is actually THE problem - included they should NOT be complaining about TAT. They are the problem. They have created the problem not only for themselves, but for everyone else. Not just high TAT, but the resulting damages inflicted on books actually worth a damn by going too fast in every step and process of grading a book. The point isn't whether they have the right to. Of COURSE they do. It's whether or not they have the right to whine about TAT when their business model apparently is creating the crush of hyper common books being sent in to be graded. It isn't the point of "Well, how do YOU know what will be valuable in the future?" I DON'T. But I can draw a pretty good hypothesis when I go to any LCS and see 40-50 long boxes filled with mediocrity.

"How do YOU know they are mediocre?" Because they are sitting there en masse not selling, that's why. And for months. They have been looked over a billion times and they are not selling because no one wants them. They have no VALUE and they never will. As of late, it seems like sellers have been fabricating ways to MAKE useless books worth something. In fact, I found a copy of Punisher War Journal 6 I had stashed away in a box with some othe rgarbage. I thought to myself: Self? This book is in mighty nice shape. It has both Wolvie and Punisher in it. It's Pt 1 of a 3 part "saga". It's worthless. What would make it valuable? OH I KNOW! I'll claim it's the first appearance of the Cheetah pelt! Yeah! A 1st appearance!" No. It's a reach but it's the reach we have been seeing more an more of lately. Maybe LCS should pack them all up and send them to CGC for grading! ALL LCS. Hit them with 10's of thousands of books all at once!

CGC, CBCS, PGX and the new grading company's function is to grade. But selfishly (IMO) sending 1,000 books per month of modern drek (I am not the only person using that word) cheats the actual collector and the NON profiteer who has some books that are rare, keys or are actually valuable on the books own merit, not the stupid 9.8. Why in the world would anyone want a run of the mill 2021 book graded? High print run. Meh art and dreadful story. To try to sell to a neophyte? A speculator? You can call it filling a demand and customer service all day long but at the end of the day, it's to push off a "product" by the hundreds or thousands.

I am simply saying if that is the case, the dealers who want to sell volumes of books in this speculative "market" ARE the problem with TAT. And TAT - AFAIK - is the issue at hand here. Not MY dfinition of "drek" or substandard art and stories. So, maybe they ought to just suck it up, wait like the rest of us and don't cry about it. Plenty of employment out there. Go find a real job and do that while you wait for your moderns to come back. Because of you guys, I have to wait just as long or longer to get my 8.0-ish Bat 232 to get graded and returned hopefully unharmed. Because backlog means the minions are forced to go faster. And faster means mistakes and mistakes means damage and loss. It's easier to deal with a CGC inflicted scrape on a 9.8 Newsstand Detective 1000 than it is a 7.5 Flash 123 "Flash Of Two Worlds". Why not buy top loaders or simply bag and board and put your drek in those and let the customer decide whether or not to send them in to grade. You are abusing what CGC and the grading companies were meant to do. Barring that, wait like the rest of us. Because of them, the rest of us have to wait and look at the rip in our 9.4 Batman 227 that was NOT there before CGC got their hands on it. .

[sckao]

I think that if you were to ask CGC who they'd prefer... you with your ultra-rare $33,000 Walkthrough copy of whatever that they charge you $1000 for versus a modern submitter who submits 40 books at a time over and over for between $900-$1500 (fast track) each time, the economics would not be in your favor. They have a payroll to maintain, rent to pay, and a business to run. Someone who submits 1000 books a month is generating at least $22,000 a month in gross revenue for them.

(They cater to everyone and would no doubt love to see the Batman #1 for the minutes it takes to grade it... but bottom line, the mass submissions probably pay the bills.)

 

[innocuous]

I went to the grocery store to buy some ice cream for Thanksgiving. They were all out of the salted caramel vanilla that goes great with the apple pie. 

I BLAME all the kids who were likely hoarding the ice cream knowing Thanksgiving was coming. The ice cream manufacturers already knew Thanksgiving was coming, so they prepared by buying milk wholesale. I know this because the price of milk is higher than it was last Thanksgiving.

If people would just STOP BUYING ICE CREAM and buy more brussel sprouts, the market would equalize.

It's so bad, there's now a black market. My neighbor had chocolate, but we were desperate for something to go with the pie. I had to let them borrow our leaf blower in exchange for a couple of scoops.

I just feel so bad for the ice cream manufacturers. I hope they come out with more signature flavors and increase their prices so that they can stay in business. 

[Randall Ries]

On 11/26/2021 at 6:40 PM, sckao said:

I think that if you were to ask CGC who they'd prefer... you with your ultra-rare $33,000 Walkthrough copy of whatever that they charge you $1000 for versus a modern submitter who submits 40 books at a time over and over for between $900-$1500 (fast track) each time, the economics would not be in your favor. They have a payroll to maintain, rent to pay, and a business to run. Someone who submits 1000 books a month is generating at least $22,000 a month in gross revenue for them.

(They cater to everyone and would no doubt love to see the Batman #1 for the minutes it takes to grade it... but bottom line, the mass submissions probably pay the bills.)

 

That has nothing to do with it. Don't try changing the subject. The point is that the people submitting 1,000's of books per month are the ones slowing everything down. Causing TAT to be ridiculously extended. It is what it is. They have no room or reason to cry about it. By extension, they are also the reason books are being damaged and lost.

Of course CGC would prefer them to everyone else. Their involvement with the hobby begins and ends with their bottom line. Oh and dictating terms to the collector. But if dealers are going to person_without_enough_empathy about TAT, then they have themselves to blame for it.

[I like pie]

On 11/4/2021 at 12:45 PM, theCapraAegagrus said:

It is true. Why do you think they added an, "opening packages from the week of ____" statement to the website...?

What is the 2 month mark past when you think your TAT 'should' have been completed?

https://www.cgccomics.com/news/article/9110/ccg-turnaround-times/

In case no one has corrected you yet.

[Lord Gemini]

On 11/26/2021 at 5:08 PM, Randall Ries said:

And when I say that I find the writing in modern comics lacking or outright terrible, there is plenty of evidence to support that. Along with the artwork.

No, you don't. The quality of art (writing and artwork) is entirely subjective. Stop telling people what they should consider good or bad.

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 11/26/2021 at 9:01 PM, I like pie said:

https://www.cgccomics.com/news/article/9110/ccg-turnaround-times/

In case no one has corrected you yet.

No one had done it, I noticed it but didnt have the time. You should tell  @Fisionbomb too. As hard a time they gave the guy

 

[thehumantorch]

On 11/10/2021 at 12:48 PM, lostboys said:

 

 

"How much complaining can you do? Eventually they find you with a broken hip." 

 

~Livia Soprano

 

 

Seriously though...its the %#@$-offs sending in 200 books at a time that caused all these issues.

 

CGC was not created to slab a book that came out last week.

 

SMH

CGC was created to grade and slab books.  If someone is willing to pay for the service they can send in what they want and as many as they want.  

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 11/26/2021 at 9:41 PM, thehumantorch said:

CGC was created to grade and slab books.  If someone is willing to pay for the service they can send in what they want and as many as they want.  

He knows that. He just wants to b&c about others that b&c. To get them to stop. Its the song that never ends. 

He even admits to it and apologizes for it in the first post, why the conversation has gone on more than a page is beyond me. Sentences, I blame @kav