THE MARVELS starring Brie Larson, Iman Vellani and Teyonna Parris (2023) 9 9

[Bosco685]

1 minute ago, @therealsilvermane said:

In the movie, Kamar Taj is in Kathmandu which is in Nepal, so the Ancient One could have been Nepalese, I don't know. I didn't look into interviews with the movie's writer, all I know is watching the movie, an Asian Ancient One could have come off as very stereotypical but whatever. It's not my favorite MCU film anyway. I didn't really really like Cumberbatch as Dr Strange until Infinity War. I think when Strange is taking on Thanos on Titan, that's when everybody else really became a fan, too.

I disagree, as there are many Doctor Strange fans. Assuming it wasn't until much later fans cared is your opinion, and just your opinion. And offensive to the contributions of Steve Ditko which when Scott Derrickson made it clear he was heavily influenced by the early work.

But no. The screenwriter (the person that actually writers the story) made it clear he was told to change the origin to avoid upsetting the Chinese box office. So now your enlightened mindset ignores that so as to avoid disagreeing with a Feige decision which even NOW he admits was wrong?

[drotto]

34 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

It was not the complete right answer as the writer even admitted back then a strong reason why they did it is so not to offend the Chinese market with a Tibetan character.

So like with Mulan where Disney thanked a local region known for prison camps this can be perceived as appeasing a entity for its box office versus 'enlightened individuals' expecting a Disney to call out atrocious activities. This could be seen as offensive to the people of Tibet.

Did you consider that in your enlightened meditations? It is quite troubling.

Well they are also having issues with Shang Chi for similar reasons.  Even though the character is now the Mandarin (in and of itself problematic for the Chinese), his father was originally Fu Man Chew and the public knows this and hates that character.

[Bosco685]

8 minutes ago, drotto said:

Well they are also having issues with Shang Chi for similar reasons.  Even though the character is now the Mandarin (in and of itself problematic for the Chinese), his father was originally Fu Man Chew and the public knows this and hates that character.

Now THAT character is a problem because of how stereotypical it was written. Not a situation of sacrificing human values over box office.

Quote

The stories of Dr Fu Manchu, both in print and on screen, have sparked numerous accusations of racism and orientalism, from his fiendish design to his nonsensical Chinese name. After the release of Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer's film adaptation of The Mask of Fu Manchu (1932), which featured the Chinese villain telling his followers that they must "kill the white man and take his women", the Chinese Embassy in Washington, DC, issued a formal complaint against the film.

 

Following the release of Republic Pictures' serial adaptation of Drums of Fu Manchu (1940) the U.S. State Department requested that the studio make no further films about the character, as China was an ally against Japan during the Second World War. Likewise, Rohmer's publisher, Doubleday, refused to publish additions to the best-selling series for the duration of the Second World War once the United States entered the conflict. BBC Radio and Broadway investors subsequently rejected Rohmer's proposals for an original Fu Manchu radio serial and stage show during the 1940s.

Marvel only backed off on the character because it lost the comic book rights. But it is definitely for the best. You cannot compare that to origin-shifts for the sake of box office results and ignoring the troubling societal situation connected to the change for all the wrong reasons.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Bosco685

[drotto]

7 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

Now THAT character is a problem because of how stereotypical it was written. Not a situation of sacrificing human values over box office.

Marvel only backed off on the character because it lost the comic book rights. But it is definitely for the best. You cannot compare that to origin-shifts for the sake of box office results and ignoring the troubling societal situation connected to the change for all the wrong reasons.

Yeah, I read something recently that the character was created in the 1910's and was popular since then.  Apparently, the Chinese government requested as far back as the late 1930's that the US stop using the character.  Needless to say we did not.  Then in the 1960's Marvel licensed the character to be the father of Shang Chi. When the rights lapsed the character then became the Mandarin.  

 

Apparently, the Chinese government is very well aware, that despite the name change they are the same character,  and they have not forgotten. They see Shang Chi's father as Fu Man Chew regardless. Thus why the movie is facing a massive uphill battle for Chinese release.

Edited May 19, 2021 by drotto

[Bosco685]

1 minute ago, drotto said:

Yeah, I read something recently that the character was created in the 1910's and was popular since then.  Apparently, the Chinese government requested as far back as the late 1930's that the US stop using the character.  Needless to say we did not.  Then in the 1960's Marvel licensed the character to be the father of Shang Chi. When the rights lapsed the character then became the Mandarin.  

 

Apparently, the Chinese government is very well aware, that despite the name change they are the same character,  and they have not forgotten.  Thus why the movie is facing a massive uphill battle for Chinese release.

Wow! That could be a huge problem going forward. Not just for this film. But knowing Disney they will sort this out somehow. Maybe thank a few prison guards and their supervisors.

[@therealsilvermane]

20 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

I disagree, as there are many Doctor Strange fans. Assuming it wasn't until much later fans cared is your opinion, and just your opinion. And offensive to the contributions of Steve Ditko which when Scott Derrickson made it clear he was heavily influenced by the early work.

But no. The screenwriter (the person that actually writers the story) made it clear he was told to change the origin to avoid upsetting the Chinese box office. So now your enlightened mindset ignores that so as to avoid disagreeing with a Feige decision which even NOW he admits was wrong?

Mmm, were there a lot of general audience fans of Dr Strange before Infinity War, though?

Stephen Strange, for a majority of the movie Dr Strange, is a selfish jerk. And not that funny (just ask Wong). Strange doesn't sort of start to become a hero until after the Ancient One tells him "It's not all about you." And then his big battle with Dormammu is just Strange pulling a Groundhog Day trick on the Big D. I mean, don't get me wrong, I liked the movie (it's MCU of course), but I didn't come out of the movie thinking, "yeah! Dr. Strange!" It wasn't until Infinity War and after the Russo Bros and the Infinity War writers did their treatment of Dr Strange did I think, "yeah, this Dr. Strange is a bad muthaf***a", and that wasn't until he's fighting Thanos on Titan. In fact, I'd say besides the Ditko Dr Strange comics, that Dr. Strange's Infinity War battle with Thanos was the most important three minutes of Dr Strange's career and it's what really put him on the worldwide pop culture icon map, not his first movie. I know, my assumption, but I bet I'm right.

[@therealsilvermane]

9 minutes ago, drotto said:

Apparently, the Chinese government is very well aware, that despite the name change they are the same character,  and they have not forgotten. They see Shang Chi's father as Fu Man Chew regardless. Thus why the movie is facing a massive uphill battle for Chinese release.

Eh, I read that the China government actually has a problem with the movie's star, Simu Liu, being critical of the Chinese government on social media. That's the kind of stuff they care about. Propaganda. I don't think the gov't over there cares whether Fu Manchu is in the movie or not. That's what I remember reading anyway.

[drotto]

Just now, @therealsilvermane said:

Eh, I read that the China government actually has a problem with the movie's star, Simu Liu, being critical of the Chinese government on social media. That's the kind of stuff they care about. Propaganda. I don't think the gov't over there cares whether Fu Manchu is in the movie or not. That's what I remember reading anyway.

It actually both, they have some political issue with him, and feel he is not attractive enough to be an action hero.  The Eternals director is also a major issue, she is persona non grata in China.  The Chinese did not air the Oscar's because she was nominated, and have not released to the public she won.

[@therealsilvermane]

5 minutes ago, drotto said:

It actually both, they have some political issue with him, and feel he is not attractive enough to be an action hero.  The Eternals director is also a major issue, she is persona non grata in China.  The Chinese did not air the Oscar's because she was nominated, and have not released to the public she won.

Well, either way, I think Shang Chi will be a very good film. Daniel Destin Cretin is another very good filmmaker acquired by Marvel Studios (along with Chloe Zhao and Ryan Coogler) who makes very good smart personal films. I think Shang Chi will be far more than just a Marvel action movie with stereotypical kung fu in it. If China audiences want to weirdly skip out on the MCU's first Asian super-hero, that's their odd choice of course.

[drotto]

2 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

Well, either way, I think Shang Chi will be a very good film. Daniel Destin Cretin is another very good filmmaker acquired by Marvel Studios (along with Chloe Zhao and Ryan Coogler) who makes very good smart personal films. I think Shang Chi will be far more than just a Marvel action movie with stereotypical kung fu in it. If China audiences want to weirdly skip out on the MCU's first Asian super-hero, that's their odd choice of course.

They likely will not be given the choice, and even if they are the public in China tends to side with the government.  They take anything that is viewed as attacking their culture very seriously, and will usually skip it.

 

At this time, both films are missing from the approved releases for 2021 in China.  You also have to remember in China, Disney must release all films in partnership with a Chinese owned film distributor, which is partially owned by the government. In addition, all films must pass government censorship committees. It is an uphill battle for these films.  There also a feeling that the Eternals may be too diverse to appeal to a Chinese audience. 

[@therealsilvermane]

5 minutes ago, drotto said:

They likely will not be given the choice, and even if they are the public in China tends to side with the government.  They take anything that is viewed as attacking their culture very seriously, and will usually skip it.

 

At this time, both films are missing from the approved releases for 2021 in China.  You also have to remember in China, Disney must release all films in partnership with a Chinese owned film distributor, which is partially owned by the government. In addition, all films must pass government censorship committees. It is an uphill battle for these films.  There also a feeling that the Eternals may be too diverse to appeal to a Chinese audience. 

And China is possibly going to miss out on some hometown pride as two Chinese born actors are starring in Shang Chi and Eternals (Kevin Feige has stated recently that Gemma Chan's Sersi will be the star of Eternals) in the beloved (in China) MCU. Maybe China will make Marvel remove Chloe Zhao's name from the Eternals credits or something before approving it.

[drotto]

12 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

And China is possibly going to miss out on some hometown pride as two Chinese born actors are starring in Shang Chi and Eternals (Kevin Feige has stated recently that Gemma Chan's Sersi will be the star of Eternals) in the beloved (in China) MCU. Maybe China will make Marvel remove Chloe Zhao's name from the Eternals credits or something before approving it.

My point is the Goverment determins home town pride in China, and they are against these movies as it stands.  There citizens are fickle and will pick party and China over the MCU. If the part says these movies are bad, and not in line with Chinese views, that will be the narrative and it will destroy the box office there. They will never let a western company dictate their morality, or decide what is accurate representation of Chinese culture. So you may say it is great representation and important for diversity.  We as westerners, can not determine that for their market, and are often wrong trying to determine what plays in that market.

 

I also think the Eternals has the added issue of LGBTQ+ being very baked into the film.  This is a country where young men currently take government classes on how to act like men, and basically denies there are any LGBTQ+ people in the country.  Those aspects are not going to go over well.  They took a very brief lesbian kiss out of Star Wars, you think they will be OK with full blown relationships that are reported to be in Eternals? 

 

This movie, if approved, is going to be very heavily edited, which risks ruining the basic fabric of any movie.

Edited May 19, 2021 by drotto

[pemart1966]

7 hours ago, Angel of Death said:

She should probably be doing squats...

When does she start her acting lessons?

[@therealsilvermane]

2 minutes ago, pemart1966 said:

When does she start her acting lessons?

She won an Oscar for Best Acting, genius.

[@therealsilvermane]

Just now, @therealsilvermane said:

She won an Oscar for Best Acting, genius.

Note my use of "genius" in the above post is the direct polar opposite of how I use it in regards to Kevin Feige.

[Bosco685]

58 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

Mmm, were there a lot of general audience fans of Dr Strange before Infinity War, though?

Stephen Strange, for a majority of the movie Dr Strange, is a selfish jerk. And not that funny (just ask Wong). Strange doesn't sort of start to become a hero until after the Ancient One tells him "It's not all about you." And then his big battle with Dormammu is just Strange pulling a Groundhog Day trick on the Big D. I mean, don't get me wrong, I liked the movie (it's MCU of course), but I didn't come out of the movie thinking, "yeah! Dr. Strange!" It wasn't until Infinity War and after the Russo Bros and the Infinity War writers did their treatment of Dr Strange did I think, "yeah, this Dr. Strange is a bad muthaf***a", and that wasn't until he's fighting Thanos on Titan. In fact, I'd say besides the Ditko Dr Strange comics, that Dr. Strange's Infinity War battle with Thanos was the most important three minutes of Dr Strange's career and it's what really put him on the worldwide pop culture icon map, not his first movie. I know, my assumption, but I bet I'm right.

Be careful as someone so blindly fanatical can come across as suffering from cult of personality. Even when you attempt to write off mistakes that individual admits to. Yes. Doctor Strange has had fans before Infinity War. That's the reason why it was such a fantastic hit for the MCU.

I fear you may be putting blinders on when you want to convince yourself of an assumption. And in this case that is crazy to assume nobody cared about this character before Infinity War. Who do you think spent $59M domestically on DVD and blurays alone to rewatch this film again?

[Bosco685]

1 hour ago, drotto said:

It actually both, they have some political issue with him, and feel he is not attractive enough to be an action hero.  The Eternals director is also a major issue, she is persona non grata in China.  The Chinese did not air the Oscar's because she was nominated, and have not released to the public she won.

Marvel’s ‘Shang-Chi,’ ‘Eternals’ May Face Uphill Battle to Enter China

Quote

The Shadow of Fu Manchu
A number of issues have sparked discontent, although it is unclear which, if any, have actually influenced authorities.

 

First off is the character Fu Manchu, the villain from the original comics who turns out to be Shang-Chi’s father. The character, seen through the years as an embodiment of the “Yellow Peril” stereotype, has been written out of the new film to distance it from these racist connotations. He has been revamped as Wenwu, or “the Mandarin,” played by Hong Kong acting legend Leung.

 

But many online in China are unaware that the 2021 film has re-imagined the old Fu Manchu character, or simply didn’t care.

 

“Although ‘the Mandarin’ is not the same person as Fu Manchu, it still is under the shadow of ‘Fu Manchu,’” the official Communist Youth League paper China Youth Daily warned back in 2019. “Even just the announcement of the characters has caused huge controversy in China. Marvel wants ‘Shang-Chi to earn money from global audiences… [but] faces a big challenge. The film itself will decide whether it will end in tears or laughter.”

 

This week, many Weibo users echoed the sentiment. “So you change the name and it’s not Fu Manchu anymore? The Mandarin is inherently a character that blackens the image of the Chinese people,” one wrote. “I hope China Film and the [censorship authorities] won’t be bought out by this; this kind of film is not worthy of coming to China to make money off us while calling us fools.”

But this may not have been covered by credible fanatical news sites like We Got This Covered. 

[pemart1966]

15 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

Note my use of "genius" in the above post is the direct polar opposite of how I use it in regards to Kevin Feige.

She must have forgotten everything that got her that award by the time she did Captain Marvel.  

When I read that she was in a movie entitled "Trainwreck" I assumed that the title was referencing Captain Marvel...turns out that I was right!

[drotto]

10 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

Marvel’s ‘Shang-Chi,’ ‘Eternals’ May Face Uphill Battle to Enter China

But this may not have been covered by credible fanatical news sites like We Got This Covered. 

This is also being released by Disney, who have recently proven that doing everything to please the Chinese government and tailor a western made film to appeal to Chinese audiences can still flop majorly.  Mulan was made with every step and measure taken to please that audience.   It was made in China, using a traditional Chinese myth, using a primarily Chinese cast, and they took great lengths to keep it sensative to their beliefs.  The main actress is even an open supporter of how the Chinese handled Hong Kong.  Yet it flopped hard and pleased nobody.

 

Western companies are so far from figuring out how this market works.  It almost feels like movies made in the west do better when they do not try to please and represent the Chinese culture.  That may be why the MCU has done so well to this point.  The only thing they have done so far to appease them, with Dr Strange, ended up hurting the film. Now when they are trying more openly to cater to China, they may end up making the same mistakes as they did with Mulan.

[@therealsilvermane]

14 minutes ago, pemart1966 said:

She must have forgotten everything that got her that award by the time she did Captain Marvel.  

When I read that she was in a movie entitled "Trainwreck" I assumed that the title was referencing Captain Marvel...turns out that I was right!

Huh? What does Brie's comedy Trainwreck have to do with Captain Marvel and how does the word trainwreck even begin to reference Captain Marvel at all since the movie exceeded expectations and made 1.3 billion dollars for Marvel Studios?