Oh Man I Sure Hope the Comics Market Never Crashes as Bad as the Stamps Market 13 13

[Krydel4]

On 3/16/2022 at 10:18 AM, JJ-4 said:

 Disney or AT&T with a division that is in the red.  Just ax them and rent them out.  Or consolidate with Marvel publishing DC properties for economies of scale.

And Short Term Profits as Batman joins the X-Men and Superman joins the Avengers!!! 

Having worked for a couple of Fortune 500 companies it is very easy to see this happening. Divisions of companies that were seen as underperforming (in this context meaning making money but not making the expected amount of money) were asset liquidated, folded into another Division or folded completely. And dont get me started on legacy Divisions and what happens to them when a new CEO or CFO comes in. 

[William-James88]

On 3/15/2022 at 4:49 PM, shadroch said:

Marvel in 1964 was putting out eight books 

 

And all drawn by the same guy

[JJ-4]

On 3/16/2022 at 1:23 PM, William-James88 said:

And all drawn by the same guy

and the were all good 

[Bookery]

On 3/15/2022 at 4:49 PM, shadroch said:

Marvel in 1964 was putting out eight books ...

 

Actually, in 1964, Marvel had 15 on-going titles, plus a couple of one-shots, plus a variety of humor-cartoon magazines and books.  But today, people only think of the hero/fantasy titles.  Which again, kind of makes my point.  Not only have individual titles plummeted in monthly sales over the decades, but whole genres have evaporated.  Even with printed books, whose decline in sales has also been massive, there is still demand for romance books, westerns, detective novels, spy stories, war stories, and humor.  Comics have lost all of this in terms of big mainstream sales (of course there are always low print-run indies of various genres).  I find these periodic threads about the "coming collapse" of comics amusing.  The "coming" part happened decades ago.

[shadroch]

On 3/17/2022 at 12:16 PM, Bookery said:

Actually, in 1964, Marvel had 15 on-going titles, plus a couple of one-shots, plus a variety of humor-cartoon magazines and books.  But today, people only think of the hero/fantasy titles.  Which again, kind of makes my point.  Not only have individual titles plummeted in monthly sales over the decades, but whole genres have evaporated.  Even with printed books, whose decline in sales has also been massive, there is still demand for romance books, westerns, detective novels, spy stories, war stories, and humor.  Comics have lost all of this in terms of big mainstream sales (of course there are always low print-run indies of various genres).  I find these periodic threads about the "coming collapse" of comics amusing.  The "coming" part happened decades ago.

Marvels distribution deal limited them to eight books a month, according to many, many sources that I have read.   Martin Goodmans publishing department did books and magazines but that was a different department and isn't relevant. 

As for the other genres, that was the fault of comic shop owners.  DC's horror line outsold their heroes in the 70s but as the market moved to comic shops, the owners ordered hero books.  Books like House of Mystery and Unknown Worlds were canceled because DC wasn't getting sufficent orders for them.   Those genres thrived in the 80s with independent  publishers who could make a profit on 20,000 sales. 

When Marvel bought Heroes World and launched the suicidal distribution war, the smaller distributors went bankrupt, owing the small publishers thousands of dollars and putting them out of business. 

I remember talking to Mark Hamlin when his company went belly up.  He did everything right. He put out good books, on -time. Brought in young talent and paid them.  He paid his printers, he provided support to his customers.  He put out books people loved.  He sold a lot of books.  Only several distributors didn't pay him and he went broke. 

Edited March 17, 2022 by shadroch

[Bookery]

On 3/17/2022 at 3:19 PM, shadroch said:

Marvels distribution deal limited them to eight books a month, according to many, many sources that I have read.   Martin Goodmans publishing department did books and magazines but that was a different department and isn't relevant. 

They were limited to 8 hero/adventure titles.  In 1964, Marvel was publishing:

Amazing Spider-Man, Daredevil, The Avengers, Fantastic Four, X-Men, Tales to Astonish, Tales of Suspense, Journey Into Mystery, Strange Tales, Sgt. Fury, Millie the Model, Rawhide Kid, Gunsmoke Western, Two Gun Kid, and Patsy & Hedy.

[JJ-4]

On 3/17/2022 at 12:25 PM, Bookery said:

They were limited to 8 hero/adventure titles.  In 1964, Marvel was publishing:

Amazing Spider-Man, Daredevil, The Avengers, Fantastic Four, X-Men, Tales to Astonish, Tales of Suspense, Journey Into Mystery, Strange Tales, Sgt. Fury, Millie the Model, Rawhide Kid, Gunsmoke Western, Two Gun Kid, and Patsy & Hedy.

Where publishing all of these titles every month in 1964?  They could they be getting around that 8 titles a month by publishing less than monthly.

Example. Only 9 issues of Millie published in '64 which included the annual, looks like it went monthly in September.

Millie the Model Comics #118	January 1964	1963-10-08
Millie the Model Comics #119	March 1964	1963-12-09
Millie the Model Comics #120	May 1964	1964-02-11
Millie the Model Comics #121	July 1964	1964-04-09
Millie the Model Comics #122	September 1964	1964-06-09
Millie the Model Annual #3	1964	1964-07-02
Millie the Model Comics #123	October 1964	1964-07-09
Millie the Model Comics #124	November 1964	1964-08-11
Millie the Model Comics #125	December 1964	1964-09-08

[Cephusdog]

On 3/17/2022 at 3:25 PM, Bookery said:

They were limited to 8 hero/adventure titles.  In 1964, Marvel was publishing:

Amazing Spider-Man, Daredevil, The Avengers, Fantastic Four, X-Men, Tales to Astonish, Tales of Suspense, Journey Into Mystery, Strange Tales, Sgt. Fury, Millie the Model, Rawhide Kid, Gunsmoke Western, Two Gun Kid, and Patsy & Hedy.

Most, if not all were published on a bimonthly schedule. I know Avengers, Daredevil, and X-Men, and Two-Gun were.

[shadroch]

I know they played with the schedule bit but it looks like Marvel published eight books some months and  11 or 12 in others from Jan.-July 1964.

I have heard a lot about Marvels eight book a month distribution but don't know the real details. 

Edited March 18, 2022 by shadroch

[Bookery]

On 3/17/2022 at 9:59 PM, shadroch said:

I know they played with the schedule bit but it looks like Marvel published eight books some months and  11 or 12 in others from Jan.-July 1964.

I have heard a lot about Marvels eight book a month distribution but don't know the real details. 

Yeah... it seems it's a bit complicated.  Apparently the initial agreement was for 8 titles, but the distributor gave-in a little over time.  It appears Marvel ceased publishing its romance titles by 1963.  Not sure if this was due to declining sales or because of the distribution agreement?

[D2]

On 3/16/2022 at 2:27 PM, Krydel4 said:

Having worked for a couple of Fortune 500 companies it is very easy to see this happening. Divisions of companies that were seen as underperforming (in this context meaning making money but not making the expected amount of money) were asset liquidated, folded into another Division or folded completely. And dont get me started on legacy Divisions and what happens to them when a new CEO or CFO comes in. 

If anything, people should learn to expect the unexpected.

If there is one constant in this world, it is change.

If there are two constants in this world, it is death.

and if there are three constants in this world, it is that any business will cut anything that doesn't make a profit.

[HouseofComics.Com]

I think both you guys are right--I have read various things about the number of books "allowed" to be published per month by Marvel before the agreement came to an end in 1968 and noticed the discrepancy in # of issues per month. Seems somewhat variable.

I assume the dropping of the romance books in 1963 is due to wanting to ride the superhero wave more, which gave them room in the schedule to do Avengers and ASM and X-Men and Daredevil. Or move some superhero titles from 6 or 9 times a year to 12. Clearly, the increasing sales were in the superhero titles and I assume romance books were declining.

[lordbyroncomics]

On 3/18/2022 at 10:09 AM, Bookery said:

Yeah... it seems it's a bit complicated.  Apparently the initial agreement was for 8 titles, but the distributor gave-in a little over time.  It appears Marvel ceased publishing its romance titles by 1963.  Not sure if this was due to declining sales or because of the distribution agreement?

Actually, a few of the romance titles kept going, albeit on a bi-monthly schedule. While it evolved into a "teen" comic over time, Millie the Model (for example) was published until 1973. Let's not forget that Marvel tried some new romance comics in the 70s' as well- "My Love" started out with new material from the Bullpen in 1969, went to reprints through the early 70s', and ceased being published in 1976. So there was still non-superhero material it's just generally less chronicled and less regarded. 

[shadroch]

Comics were much more diverse when they  relied on news stands.  As the Direct Market evolved, store owners had to order and sometimes pay in advance.  They ordered more heroes and less suspense and mystery.  Marvel kept the Western genre alive with reprints until the direct market started but shop owners didn't orfder enough to make it profitable.  The first generation of shop owners were almost all fans, many were under-financed, and they gravitated to the stuff they knew and loved. 

Edited March 20, 2022 by shadroch

[lordbyroncomics]

On 3/20/2022 at 4:39 PM, shadroch said:

Comics were much more diverse when relied on news stands.  As the Direct Market evolved, store owners had to order and sometimes pay in advance.  They ordered more heroes and less suspense and mystery.  Marvel kept the Western genre alive with reprints until the direct market started but shop owners didn't order enough to make it profitable.

Honestly, it's because a lot of comic shop owners were fanboys and focused on what they knew and liked which was super-heroes. 

[bc]

The original agreement after the American News Company closed in May of '57 was that Goodman was allowed to publish 16 titles, 8 per month thru Independent News (owned by DC).

This forced the publishing of titles on a bi-monthly basis for several years.

The agreement was amended several times as Marvel Comics gained popularity in the '60s. By 1968, Independent News allowed them to publish an unlimited number of titles based on demand.

Once Goodman had that secured, he sold the business to Perfect Film and Chemical Corporation later in 1968.

In 1969, Marvel dropped the agreement with Independent News/DC Comics and signed with the Curtis Circulation Company, which also was a large magazine wholesaler.

-bc

[bc]

Just as a follow up...

Starting with a cover date of Sept '63, Marvel was releasing at least 9 superhero titles a month (ST112, JIM96, TOS45, TTA47, FF18, ASM4, Sgt Fury3, Avengers1, XMen1)

Feb '65 raised that to 10 (ST129, JIM113, TOS62, TTA64, FF35, ASM21, Sgt Fury15, AV13, DD6, Marvel Collectors Item Classics1)

Feb '66 had 11 titles (ST141, JIM125, TOS74, TTA76, FF47, ASM33, Sgt Fury27, AV25, XMen17, DD13, Fantasy Masterpieces1)

By April '66 that had raised to 12 titles (ST143, TOS76, TTA78, FF49, ASM35, SgtFury29, AV27, Xmen19, DD15. MCIC2, Fantasy Masterpieces2, Thor 127)

Feb '67 saw that increase to 13 titles per month (ST153, TOS86, TTA88, FF59, ASM45, SgtFury39, AV37,Xmen29, DD25, MCIC7, FM7, Thor 137, Ghost Rider1)

Aug '67 grew to 14 titles (ST159, TOS92, TTA94, FF65, ASM51,SgtFury45, AV43, Xmen35, DD31, MCIC10, FM10, Thor143, Ghost Rider4, Not Brand Echh1)

1968 saw that increase after Independent News allowed them to publish "at will".

Sorry, didn't record Western, War or Romance comic data in my old spreadsheets....

-bc

 

[William-James88]

On 3/20/2022 at 7:59 PM, bc said:

Just as a follow up...

Starting with a cover date of Sept '63, Marvel was releasing at least 9 superhero titles a month (ST112, JIM96, TOS45, TTA47, FF18, ASM4, Sgt Fury3, Avengers1, XMen1)

Feb '65 raised that to 10 (ST129, JIM113, TOS62, TTA64, FF35, ASM21, Sgt Fury15, AV13, DD6, Marvel Collectors Item Classics1)

Feb '66 had 11 titles (ST141, JIM125, TOS74, TTA76, FF47, ASM33, Sgt Fury27, AV25, XMen17, DD13, Fantasy Masterpieces1)

By April '66 that had raised to 12 titles (ST143, TOS76, TTA78, FF49, ASM35, SgtFury29, AV27, Xmen19, DD15. MCIC2, Fantasy Masterpieces2, Thor 127)

Feb '67 saw that increase to 13 titles per month (ST153, TOS86, TTA88, FF59, ASM45, SgtFury39, AV37,Xmen29, DD25, MCIC7, FM7, Thor 137, Ghost Rider1)

Aug '67 grew to 14 titles (ST159, TOS92, TTA94, FF65, ASM51,SgtFury45, AV43, Xmen35, DD31, MCIC10, FM10, Thor143, Ghost Rider4, Not Brand Echh1)

1968 saw that increase after Independent News allowed them to publish "at will".

Sorry, didn't record Western, War or Romance comic data in my old spreadsheets....

-bc

 

Thanks for this, could you tell me which of those years had new Kirby art in the highest amount of titles?

Edited March 21, 2022 by William-James88

[bc]

On 3/20/2022 at 10:16 PM, William-James88 said:

Thanks for this, could you tell me which of those years had new Kirby art in the highest amount of titles?

This is like a thread-surrection question

 

Also this:

https://www.cbr.com/comic-book-questions-answered-how-many-pages-did-jack-kirby-draw-in-a-day/#:~:text=Jack often did more than,with this in more detail.

Summary: "We have heard so many stories about how fast Kirby was, but how many pages did he actually draw a day? The one I heard the most often was about three pages a day, which is a remarkably high amount of pages."

"To find out for sure, I went to everyone's favorite Jack Kirby expert, Mark Evanier, and here's what he had to say:"

"Jack often did more than three a day. During the 1963-1967 period, he often did five or six a day. His 1970 deal with DC required fifteen a week and he sometimes did twenty."

 

This is somewhat confirmed by this post:

https://www.penciljack.com/forum/divergent-discussions/break-room/47634-

Three a day may have been his latter day output but, not his prime. Jack would've call three a day "naptime."

Picking blindly out of my Spidey box, I get ASM 21, Feb 1965. A month of no special importance, no different than any other. The letters page holds an INCOMPLETE checklist of "this months" books. Repeat: INCOMPLETE! The list held eight titles and Jack was involved in every one of them.

Fantastic Four 35 (20 + cover)
Avengers 12 (20 + cover)
X-men 9 (20 + cover)
JIM 112 - Thor+Tales of Asgard (21 + cover)
Suspense 62 - Captain America (10 + cover)
Astonish 64 (cover)
Strange Tales 129 (cover)
Sgt Fury 14 (cover)

That's 99 pages (minimum) in 22 days! 

Remember that Jack wasn't drawing art or history, he was drawing: house payments, heating oil, food for his children and shoes for their feet. Contrary to the libelous nonsense of FF 511 () where Jack shows up as god, Jack's pencils had no erasers. The reason was simple: You don't get paid to erase.

 

That amount of output is astounding to me, and to think it went on month after month for several years is just insane.

So to circle back to your original question: a good guess is at least 8 titles per month in 1965.

-bc

 

[Krydel4]

On 3/21/2022 at 3:15 PM, bc said:

This is like a thread-surrection question

 

Also this:

https://www.cbr.com/comic-book-questions-answered-how-many-pages-did-jack-kirby-draw-in-a-day/#:~:text=Jack often did more than,with this in more detail.

Summary: "We have heard so many stories about how fast Kirby was, but how many pages did he actually draw a day? The one I heard the most often was about three pages a day, which is a remarkably high amount of pages."

"To find out for sure, I went to everyone's favorite Jack Kirby expert, Mark Evanier, and here's what he had to say:"

"Jack often did more than three a day. During the 1963-1967 period, he often did five or six a day. His 1970 deal with DC required fifteen a week and he sometimes did twenty."

 

This is somewhat confirmed by this post:

https://www.penciljack.com/forum/divergent-discussions/break-room/47634-

Three a day may have been his latter day output but, not his prime. Jack would've call three a day "naptime."

Picking blindly out of my Spidey box, I get ASM 21, Feb 1965. A month of no special importance, no different than any other. The letters page holds an INCOMPLETE checklist of "this months" books. Repeat: INCOMPLETE! The list held eight titles and Jack was involved in every one of them.

Fantastic Four 35 (20 + cover)
Avengers 12 (20 + cover)
X-men 9 (20 + cover)
JIM 112 - Thor+Tales of Asgard (21 + cover)
Suspense 62 - Captain America (10 + cover)
Astonish 64 (cover)
Strange Tales 129 (cover)
Sgt Fury 14 (cover)

That's 99 pages (minimum) in 22 days! 

Remember that Jack wasn't drawing art or history, he was drawing: house payments, heating oil, food for his children and shoes for their feet. Contrary to the libelous nonsense of FF 511 () where Jack shows up as god, Jack's pencils had no erasers. The reason was simple: You don't get paid to erase.

 

That amount of output is astounding to me, and to think it went on month after month for several years is just insane.

So to circle back to your original question: a good guess is at least 8 titles per month in 1965.

-bc

 

Then you get to today's artists who get a 6-8 week head start before publication that need a fill in by Issue 3 cause they've fallen behind. And it's the only book they work on. 🤦‍♂️

Edited March 21, 2022 by Krydel4
Clarity