Oh Man I Sure Hope the Comics Market Never Crashes as Bad as the Stamps Market 13 13

[NewWorldOrder]

On 3/15/2022 at 12:21 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

I wish I could be this optimistic about the health of the planet in general over the next 25-50 years.

Oh the planet?

Yeah it's a wrap! 

Whatever, as long as my oil stocks keeping paying me dividends I will forgo Mother Earth! 

[NewWorldOrder]

On 3/15/2022 at 12:28 PM, shadroch said:

Staying the course in the stock market means doing nothing. Staying the course for the shop owner would have meant years of struggling to meet the monthly nut.

The thousands upon thousands of shops that didn't survive didn't close because the owners had made their fortunes. The guys I sold my shops to were passionate but got tired of reaching into their pockets to keep the place going.  It's a small sampling  but of my fellow shop owners on Long Island in 1988, the few who were open ten years later almost all had pensions or were on disability.  I was shocked when a friend who had what I thought was a very successful shop offered to give it to me. It turned out he was about to be evicted, hadn't paid rent, or insurance for months and owed Diamond for the last six weeks. He was looking for a sucker to step in and pick up his debts. 

When I sold my shop, I was getting 52% off new books and free delivery. Within five years, the typical terms for small shops was 40-45% and not only did you have to pay for shipping, but it came COD which added a few bucks per box.  

I only got 25% of new books from my store in the 90's as their best employee. 

[Bookery]

On 3/15/2022 at 4:49 PM, shadroch said:

Thats not a fair comparison. Marvel in 1964 was putting out eight books so if they all sold 500,000 that means the market for Marvel comics was four million copies a month.  They sell way more than four million units today so sales have not dropped 80%, although losing that percent of readers may be correct. 

 

I wasn't just talking about Marvel.  DC certainly out-sold Marvel for most of the '60s.  Even Dell / Gold Key, and Archie in the early 60s, probably had titles selling in the 500,000 range.  The population of the US has doubled since then.  If the percent of the population reading comics were the same, top comics would need to be selling about 1-million copies per issue.  Printed readership is down, period.  It's not my hypothesis.  It's fact.  There must be hundreds of articles about it over the years.  Comics are not some magical entity that is immune.  Now as collectibles, or as digital properties, that's a different debate and shouldn't be conflated.

[EastEnd1]

On 3/15/2022 at 4:48 PM, Bookery said:

You have to define to which "market" you are referring?  The collectibles market is booming right now (as are many types of collectibles).  But "new" comic book readership keeps declining just as physical book readership has declined over the years.  The printed word itself is declining.  Did it "collapse" in one fell swoop?  No.  But it trickles lower year by year.  In the 1970s there were 15-20 used bookstores in our greater metropolitan area.  Now there are maybe 2.  I carried new-release comics in my shop for 35 years.  They are no longer viable, and we have dropped them.  This will vary from region to region, of course, but the overall trend is obvious.  All printed material will continue to decline in readership, as it shifts to digital, and in some cases, away from reading altogether.

That's all fine.. it's called progress.  Though I will confess that I refuse to read an e-book or buy a paper book from Amazon.  There's still a local book shop nearby and that's where I shop for books... I still love the smell of the paper while I shop in that store.

It's ONE market... generally has been for most collectors since I've been doing this since the 1970s.  You and I have both said and agree that NEW comic book readership has declined for over FIFTY YEARS now.  You can count me as a contributor to that decline... maybe you too?  I haven't purchased a new comic in at least 15 years.  But I've bought literally thousands of VINTAGE comics over that time.  My guess is I'm not the only one based on the rise in transactions, selling venues, and valuations over that period while new comic sales continued their decline.  The comic book market consists of both "new" AND "vintage" comics.  And while it's true the purchasers of new comics has declined greatly since the 1960s, it is equally relevant that the value of the entirety of vintage comics in the 1960s was probably less than the value of ONE single near mint Action Comics #1 today.  The vintage market barely existed! 

The comic book market has not collapsed... it's EVOLVED... and thanks to that evolution (which continues btw), it's bigger than it's ever been.

[Hmmm, just made me think of that line from The Godfather... "We're bigger than U.S. Steel."]

[Krydel4]

On 3/15/2022 at 1:50 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

Most new comics are garbage filler anyway.  Save trees and cancel most of them I say. 

 

I actually agree with the last part as it relates to the Big 2. I have said for years that the line needs to be cut down. 2 Titles for Bats and Supes, 1 title for WW, Aquaman and everyone on that level. A couple of team books (excluding GL who gets 1 title for GL  and 1 title for Corps). One anthology series to introduce and try new characters ala B&B or Showcase style title.  The big earth changing multi-title + its own miniseries crossovers that come out ever 3 months need to stop and have just one Mega event every 3-4 years that is contained within that miniseries. For Marvel rinse and repeat. But I would probably go with 1 book each for the A listers and the B listers would be put together on team books ala Defenders or Invaders. Max 3 X-Men books with a Solo Wolverine title. All in all it would probably come out to about 15-20 books from each company. The best talent would be on these books. Quality over quantity.

Edited March 15, 2022 by Krydel4
Clarity

[JJ-4]

On 3/15/2022 at 3:37 PM, Krydel4 said:

Quality over quantity.

Having fewer titles that were must reads would be great.

[shadroch]

On 3/15/2022 at 3:37 PM, Krydel4 said:

I actually agree with the last part as it relates to the Big 2. I have said for years that the line needs to be cut down. 2 Titles for Bats and Supes, 1 title for WW, Aquaman and everyone on that level. A couple of team books (excluding GL who gets 1 title for GL  and 1 title for Corps). One anthology series to introduce and try new characters ala B&B or Showcase style title.  The big earth changing multi-title + its own miniseries crossovers that come out ever 3 months need to stop and have just one Mega event every 3-4 years that is contained within that miniseries. For Marvel rinse and repeat. But I would probably go with 1 book each for the A listers and the B listers would be put together on team books ala Defenders or Invaders. Max 3 X-Men books with a Solo Wolverine title. All in all it would probably come out to about 15-20 books from each company. The best talent would be on these books. Quality over quantity.

How would a store survive selling 20 books from a few companies and less from others?  How would Marvel make money selling 20 titles a month? 

If fifteen X-books average 50,000 per title, do you think a single title would sell 750,000?

Edited March 15, 2022 by shadroch

[Krydel4]

On 3/15/2022 at 3:59 PM, shadroch said:

How would a store survive selling 20 books from a few companies and less from others?  How would Marvel make money selling 20 titles a month? 

Marvel isn't a comic book only company anymore. Hasn't been for the past 20 years and moreover since the Disney purchase. All the LCS in my area 80% of their business is Ancillary Merchandise, Toys, Funkos, statues, TPB etc. Pop Culture stores with comics. Marvel and DC have already downsized their publication offices and staff. In terms of quality most of the Hot books in terms of fans and quality are coming out of the smaller publishers like IDW, Boom, Image etc. 

[Coverless 9.8]

On 3/15/2022 at 5:13 PM, EastEnd1 said:

The comic book market has not collapsed... it's EVOLVED... and thanks to that evolution (which continues btw), it's bigger than it's ever been.

[Hmmm, just made me think of that line from The Godfather... "We're bigger than U.S. Steel."]

https://memes.getyarn.io/yarn-clip/0a00e1f3-5a7f-44c3-9ce9-2faa0ed83dea

[Krydel4]

On 3/15/2022 at 4:29 PM, Sefageus Magnipab said:

Sorry to hear you live in a crappy part of the country. Luckily what you say hasn't happened around here and the comic stores are still comics first, all else second.

It's just the business model evolving. It's like the Cons today. They are not Comic centric anymore, they are Pop culture centric, with TV celebrity signings, video games, clothing dealers, etc. All the comic stores in my area and the proprietors have been around at least 30+ years in the business running their stores. They started out as comic first. And then over the years to supplement their business they bring in t-shirts,  then toys and then...and so forth. The other stuff is to supplement the comics so they can keep bringing in the comics cause that's their first love.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 3/15/2022 at 2:47 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

Better than owning no flakes.  How you are thinking right there is honestly the problem I have with most people.  

Everyone has to start somewhere. 

This is America!  If you can afford something.  

"Make more money"

I could also "own" stocks in a comic book. Doesn't make it a good idea.

[Nic8612]

On 3/15/2022 at 8:23 PM, Krydel4 said:

It's just the business model evolving. It's like the Cons today. They are not Comic centric anymore, they are Pop culture centric, with TV celebrity signings, video games, clothing dealers, etc. All the comic stores in my area and the proprietors have been around at least 30+ years in the business running their stores. They started out as comic first. And then over the years to supplement their business they bring in t-shirts,  then toys and then...and so forth. The other stuff is to supplement the comics so they can keep bringing in the comics cause that's their first love.

I went to a "comic convention" a few weeks ago that had over 100 tables/booths and only TWO had comics. I was there with a backpack full of books looking to make some trades and left extremely disappointed that I paid $20 just to go inside and waste my day

[lostboys]

 My comics WILL NOT increase in value after I die!

 

Wanna bet?

 

[Bookery]

On 3/15/2022 at 6:59 PM, shadroch said:

How would a store survive selling 20 books from a few companies and less from others?  How would Marvel make money selling 20 titles a month? 

If fifteen X-books average 50,000 per title, do you think a single title would sell 750,000?

You're right... it couldn't now.  It's too late.  But if years ago they began concentrating on fewer, solid titles, with fewer multi-title crossovers, I think each title would be selling more today than it is.  This doesn't mean they even needed to abandon all those other stories... but they should have been packaged into graphic novel one-shots and trades.  The other really annoying things is... the Big 2 are owned by Disney and AT&T -- two of the largest corporations the world has ever seen.  But they won't pay for a single TV ad promoting their comic book lines.  They won't even put ads on at the beginning of their own movies.  If the people that produce comics books don't care, why should the readers?

[JJ-4]

On 3/16/2022 at 8:20 AM, Bookery said:

You're right... it couldn't now.  It's too late.  But if years ago they began concentrating on fewer, solid titles, with fewer multi-title crossovers, I think each title would be selling more today than it is.  This doesn't mean they even needed to abandon all those other stories... but they should have been packaged into graphic novel one-shots and trades.  The other really annoying things is... the Big 2 are owned by Disney and AT&T -- two of the largest corporations the world has ever seen.  But they won't pay for a single TV ad promoting their comic book lines.  They won't even put ads on at the beginning of their own movies.  If the people that produce comics books don't care, why should the readers?

That's the problem with big corporations, they would need a long term plan for promoting comics.  Unless it's something they can point to in the next quarterly results they probably wont do it and just kick the can, which puts us where we are today.

[october]

On 3/16/2022 at 11:25 AM, JJ-4 said:

That's the problem with big corporations, they would need a long term plan for promoting comics.  Unless it's something they can point to in the next quarterly results they probably wont do it and just kick the can, which puts us where we are today.

Short term profits that lead to short term stock bumps that lead to executive compensation based on said bumps >>>>> long term gains. 

Poorly aligned incentives suck. 

[JJ-4]

On 3/16/2022 at 9:59 AM, october said:

Short term profits that lead to short term stock bumps that lead to executive compensation based on said bumps >>>>> long term gains. 

Poorly aligned incentives suck. 

I agree, and as long as the comic division wasn't losing money let them continue down the same road generating IP (with no reinvestment or long term strategy).  Now that they are at the break even tipping point I wouldn't be surprised to see further pull back as nobody wants to be the middle manager at Disney or AT&T with a division that is in the red.  Just ax them and rent them out.  Or consolidate with Marvel publishing DC properties for economies of scale.

And Short Term Profits as Batman joins the X-Men and Superman joins the Avengers!!! 

[NewWorldOrder]

On 3/16/2022 at 4:46 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

I could also "own" stocks in a comic book. Doesn't make it a good idea.

apples and oranges. 

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 3/16/2022 at 1:24 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

apples and oranges. 

So you're admitting that they're both fruits?

[JJ-4]

On 3/16/2022 at 4:46 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

I could also "own" stocks in a comic book. Doesn't make it a good idea.

Totally agree.  Unless of course anyone wants to own a fractional piece of any of my high dollar comics (up to 49.5%!).

Just send me a check.