Church/MH Superman 1 record sale in January 7 7

[rob_react]

On 4/14/2022 at 8:00 PM, MrBedrock said:

Roy is going to be so butthurt!

I would think the fact that his nefarious plot to... something something (I'm not sure what the plot actually is) was found out by the tin foil hat brigade here on the forums would already ruin his day. Now we're just piling on!

[Transplant]

On 4/14/2022 at 7:00 PM, MrBedrock said:

On 4/14/2022 at 6:08 PM, G.A.tor said:

Let’s nudge this thread back and make it about me

Roy is going to be so butthurt!

I thought every thread already was about GAtor and Roy.  Don't believe me?  Just ask them!

[G.A.tor]

On 4/14/2022 at 9:02 PM, Transplant said:

I thought every thread already was about GAtor and Roy.  Don't believe me?  Just ask them!

That’s what I’m taking about. 

[VintageComics]

On 4/14/2022 at 6:16 PM, sfcityduck said:

I'm also mystified (1) how the unrestored version of the book has eliminated the white dots on the upper right of the shorts and lower left inside of cape without a CT notation and (2) why we want to encourage the removal of reversible seals that are intended to prevent further tearing to a book. 

This could be scanner artifact and nothing more. Or debris in or on the holder. It's really important to remember that scans show books differently than holding them in hand. 

[VintageComics]

On 4/14/2022 at 8:00 PM, MrBedrock said:

Roy is going to be so butthurt!

I don't get butthurt anymore. I'm too numb for that. 

[woowoo]

On 4/14/2022 at 5:00 PM, MrBedrock said:

Roy is going to be so butthurt!

Hey @MrBedrockWho is Roy  Thought @VintageComics  was Karen after reading this thread   Sorry you are taking a Roy  

Edited April 15, 2022 by woowoo

[Gotham Kid]

On 4/14/2022 at 4:39 PM, VintageComics said:

People who are new to the hobby may not realize that auction houses have only been a primary means of selling comics in the last decade. Go back more than 10 years and there was only Heritage.

Comiclink, Comic Connect and even Pedigree are all recent venues. 

[The Black Hand ®]

On 4/14/2022 at 6:21 PM, VintageComics said:

I don't get butthurt anymore. I'm too numb for that. 

There's a hemorrhoid ointment joke in there somewhere.

[tth2]

On 4/14/2022 at 10:47 PM, sfcityduck said:

That is a REALLY BAD analogy.  Here's the history on that manipulated (maybe even forged) card and the transactions it underwent:

The most famous T206 Honus Wagner is the "Gretzky T206 Honus Wagner" card. The card's odd texture and shape led to speculation that it was altered.

The Gretzky T206 Wagner first came to attention in 1985, when small-time Hicksville, New York card collector Alan Ray contacted Bob Sevchuk, the owner of a Long Island sports memorabilia store, to arrange a potential $25,000 deal for his T206 Honus Wagner card. Bill Mastro, a sports memorabilia dealer who later founded Mastro Auctions and became one of the most powerful figures in the industry, heard the news, and immediately jumped on the offer. Mastro, with the financial backing of friend Rob Lifson, sought to improve the offer and had Ray add 50 to 75 of his other T206 series cards, including the rare T206 Eddie Plank, into the deal. Ray, who later stated he "had a money situation," agreed to Mastro's terms of the deal.

Mastro sold the card two years later to Jim Copeland for nearly four times the price he had originally paid. Copeland's sizable transaction revitalized interest in the sports memorabilia collection market. In 1991, Copeland sold the card to ice hockey figures Wayne Gretzky and Bruce McNall for $451,000. Gretzky resold the card four years later to Walmart and Treat Entertainment for $500,000 for use as the top prize in a promotional contest.

The next year, a Florida postal worker won the card and auctioned it at Christie's for $640,000 to collector Michael Gidwitz. In 2000, the card was sold via Robert Edward Auctions to card collector Brian Seigel for $1.27 million. In February 2007, Seigel sold the card privately to an anonymous collector for $2.35 million. Less than six months later, the card was sold to another anonymous collector for $2.8 million. In April 2011, that anonymous purchaser was revealed to be Ken Kendrick, owner of the Arizona Diamondbacks.

In October 2013, Bill Mastro, CEO of Mastro Auctions (the owner of Robert Edward Auctions) pleaded guilty to mail fraud in U.S. District Court and later admitted to the court that he had trimmed the "Gretzky" Wagner card to sharply increase its value. 

In August 2020, the T206 record was broken when a Mike Trout 2009 Bowman Chrome Draft Prospects Superfractors series rookie card with a card count of 1, a manufactured collectible, sold in August 2020 for a record setting $3.93 million. 

Other T206 Wagners, both legitimate and fake, have surfaced in recent years. Some of the real cards have fetched hundreds of thousands of dollars in auctions. One particular T206 Honus Wagner owned by John Cobb and Ray Edwards has attracted media controversy over its authenticity.

I hope to God comics are not equivalent to baseball card collecting, but I fear that is or may be becoming the case.

You’re so busy getting lost in the trees that you’ve completely missed the point.

[tth2]

On 4/15/2022 at 6:13 AM, rob_react said:

99.99% of people in the world don't know who Roy is, I'll give you that. 

 

For the first time in my life, I envy the 99.99%.

[tth2]

On 4/15/2022 at 10:56 AM, Gotham Kid said:

It was only an exchange for a long time.  The auction component came around only after Heritage had been running auctions for a few years, and of course eBay had been around running auctions since at least the mid-90s.

I give Josh credit for being the first major online comic consignment site.  Bob Storms and Metropolis also had websites early on, but my impression at the time was that they were primarily proprietary inventory.  I can’t remember if they even had functionalities to directly upload your books.  In contrast, Comiclink was set up from the get go for individual owners to upload and list their books directly.

[MyNameIsLegion]

I'm just as dubious about a private sale as I am some of the public auction sales.  About the only thing I would believe is a canceled cashiers check for the full amount. And if other parties are involved, brokers or auction houses, I want to see what the consignor actually received $$$$ in their hands, not just what the buyer "paid". If this involved a known comic art dealer, just as it's happened with comic art dealers bidding on HA- it's all funny money. They use fronted credits from the auction house or proceeds from previous auctions to bid on other items in future auctions. No actual money changes hands, they don't pay sales tax, they get a % of the BP or don't pay sellers commission.  The IRS would have a field day if they ever scrutinized the Dealer/HA circle jerk. Meanwhile the market has been further manipulated as to what the FMV of anything actually is.  Doesn't matter how many zeros we are talking about.  It's more perception that reality, but everyone is cool with it, because most everyone "needs" it to be real when they sell or trade. If this wasn't 100% a cash deal, (well there was X % in trade, bah, whatever) I don't think this means much other than a well timed attention grab. 

Edited April 15, 2022 by MyNameIsLegion

[lou_fine]

On 4/14/2022 at 8:59 AM, rob_react said:

c'mon, no one could EVER manipulate a public auction 

Saw your post earlier today and made a call down to Halperin in his Heritage Dallas corner suite and he agrees 110% with your post here.   

Edited April 15, 2022 by lou_fine

[nearmint]

On 4/14/2022 at 10:44 PM, MyNameIsLegion said:

I'm just as dubious about a private sale as I am some of the public auction sales.  About the only thing I would believe is a canceled cashiers check for the full amount. And if other parties are involved, brokers or auction houses, I want to see what the consignor actually received $$$$ in their hands, not just what the buyer "paid". If this involved a known comic art dealer, just as it's happened with comic art dealers bidding on HA- it's all funny money. They use fronted credits from the auction house or proceeds from previous auctions to bid on other items in future auctions. No actual money changes hands, they don't pay sales tax, they get a % of the BP or don't pay sellers commission.  The IRS would have a field day if they ever scrutinized the Dealer/HA circle jerk. Meanwhile the market has been further manipulated as to what the FMV of anything actually is.  Doesn't matter how many zeros we are talking about.  It's more perception that reality, but everyone is cool with it, because most everyone "needs" it to be real when they sell or trade. If this wasn't 100% a cash deal, (well there was X % in trade, bah, whatever) I don't think this means much other than a well timed attention grab. 

Why wouldn’t proceeds from past auctions be a legitimate funding source?  What does the fact that they don’t pay sales tax have to do with anything?  Anyone with a business license stating they’re in the business of buying and selling collectibles doesn’t pay sales tax at Heritage.  

[tth2]

On 4/15/2022 at 1:44 PM, MyNameIsLegion said:

I'm just as dubious about a private sale as I am some of the public auction sales.  About the only thing I would believe is a canceled cashiers check for the full amount. And if other parties are involved, brokers or auction houses, I want to see what the consignor actually received $$$$ in their hands, not just what the buyer "paid". If this involved a known comic art dealer, just as it's happened with comic art dealers bidding on HA- it's all funny money. They use fronted credits from the auction house or proceeds from previous auctions to bid on other items in future auctions. No actual money changes hands, they don't pay sales tax, they get a % of the BP or don't pay sellers commission.  The IRS would have a field day if they ever scrutinized the Dealer/HA circle jerk. Meanwhile the market has been further manipulated as to what the FMV of anything actually is.  Doesn't matter how many zeros we are talking about.  It's more perception that reality, but everyone is cool with it, because most everyone "needs" it to be real when they sell or trade. If this wasn't 100% a cash deal, (well there was X % in trade, bah, whatever) I don't think this means much other than a well timed attention grab. 

I guess the comic book world will just have to somehow continue without your seal of approval.

[MyNameIsLegion]

On 4/15/2022 at 1:33 AM, tth2 said:

I guess the comic book world will just have to somehow continue without your seal of approval.

 

 

[lou_fine]

On 4/13/2022 at 10:05 AM, MasterChief said:

In the past when a book is resubed, the old number is zeroed-out and a new number issued with new grade/label.

I am quite sure that this same process is still in place for all regular resubs where the Joe Average submittor like you and me mails their book and submission form into the Receiving Department  of CGC and the book then trudges it all the way through the regular grading process until it makes its way right up to the Finalizer who then determines the final grade for the resubbed book.  

On 4/13/2022 at 10:05 AM, MasterChief said:

When you run the Church 8.0 cert number (1072525001) the book pops as an 8.5 graded January 10, 2022. Same cert number. Apparently, the original cert number was used for the upgrade. First time I've seen that.

In any business, there are customers and then there are customers, and not all customers are treated equally.  Since CGC is clearly a business, it only makes business sense and totally understandble that there are customers/books and then there are customers/books, and not all customers/books are treated equally.  This then should not be a big concern if certain customers/books receive special preferred treatment or services as long as it does not mean they receive special or preferred grades because after all, that is the bottom-line cornerstone of their business.  

As such, this type of customer/book does not simply mail their book and submission form into the CGC Receiving Department, but instead the book is most probably brought into CGC and starts their process at the top of the food chain in order to determine the best process for the book before it is then placed into the system at the appropriate step.  I am sure we would all want to get this preferred treatment for all of our resubs, but from a pure business POV totally understandable why we do not and this is fine with me as long as the book is still graded the same way as all other books.  

On 4/13/2022 at 4:08 PM, nearmint said:

That's odd.  I wonder why?

Yes, totally weird as I've never understood why they didn't simply grab a blank CGC submission form and used that new serial number instead of reusing the same old CGC serial number again.    

[lou_fine]

On 4/13/2022 at 10:20 PM, VintageComics said:

Has CGC ever announced the previous grade on a book when the grade has changed? 

No. So why would you expect them to do so here?

Because we are not talking about the previous grade on the book here, but the CURRENT grade on the book which they clearly knew when they did their press release.  

[lou_fine]

On 4/14/2022 at 4:48 AM, Timely said:

It’s possible in todays arena, the MH is better than his, why? 30-35 years back, the MH was viewed as a restored 7.0 to 8.0, depending on who you asked. Everyone knew it was restored, with some resto having been removed since those days, such as piece removal. If the other copy was only a 6.5, by default a 6.5 unrestored trumps any restored copy, MH or not! Flash forward to the world of restoration removal, grading and grading bumps, it’s not so clear. 

Totally agree with you since it's rather quite obvious that grading standards have changed from the time when CGC first started as compared to what we have today, and sadly, not necessarily for the better.  

Being a long time collector from well before the days of CGC, I personally prefer the old school grading which CGC seems to have initially started with before it evolve (or is it devolve ) over time into a grading system whereby the additional revenue generating types of defects seemingly kept moving up on their hit parade chart with a bullet. So yes, it's quite possible that Dave's current copy might indeed present and look much nicer from a simple visual presentation POV, even though it might still conceivably grade out slightly lower if graded in today's grading environment. Then again, he might simply have gone for his current non-pedigree copy since it's completely unrestored, whereas this is certainly not the case with the Church copy.    

Edited April 15, 2022 by lou_fine

[lou_fine]

On 4/14/2022 at 7:26 AM, sfcityduck said:

For me CGC has taken some credibility hits recently.

What kind of credibility hits are you referring as I am aware of the silly one to do with the grading of "invisible" comic books, but not much else. 

Definitely nothing at all compared to the time in 2005 or thereabouts with the whole Jason Ewert fiasco and when the issue of pressing first came to light on these very boards here.  Now, that was most definitely a time when CGC's credibility was at rock bottom.