Church/MH Superman 1 record sale in January 7 7

[lou_fine]

On 4/14/2022 at 5:50 AM, KCOComics said:

The one thing I would add to this is, it probably wasn't that big of a gamble to crack and press this book. 

I'm sure for a book of this stature Nelson and CGC reviewed it carefully to see what the realistic possibility was of a grade bump. Then it was given royal treatment all the way through the process. 

Of course there is some risk, but I imagine the buyer had a very good idea of where this would end up. 

Based upon how you laid out the scenario here which I would not disagree with, why would you say that there is some risk for the buyer here?  

Especially if the Initializer in this process is also the Finalizer, and as such has the final say on the determination of the final grade.  

Edited April 15, 2022 by lou_fine

[lou_fine]

On 4/14/2022 at 1:16 PM, VintageComics said:

On 4/14/2022 at 12:38 PM, Transplant said:

There was no risk involved.  

Guessing, but also 99% sure, that there was a commitment it would never fall in grade and could only rise.  Then, it was secreted off to be impartially graded without the graders knowing whose book it was or would so belong to, AT ALL.  

No conspiracy theories! 

No cover ups and/or no pleading of the Fifth here!!    

[KCOComics]

On 4/15/2022 at 5:20 AM, lou_fine said:

Based upon how you laid out the scenario here which I would not disagree with, why would you say that there is some risk for the buyer here?  

Especially if the Initializer in this process is also the Finalizer, and as such has the final say on the determination of the final grade.  

I was thinking any time you handle a comic book there is "some risk".  Cracking the slab, pressing, flipping through the pages, all creates some risk. 

Now I carefully handle and read 80 year old comics fairly frequently and I've never damaged one, so I'm sure that risk is minimal.

However, none of my comics come anywhere near that price tag. And while the risk of damage is small, I would have anxiety about the process.

[rob_react]

On 4/15/2022 at 1:49 AM, lou_fine said:

Saw your post earlier today and made a call down to Halperin in his Heritage Dallas corner suite and he agrees 110% with your post here.   

I like Heritage so I'm not even throwing them under the bus here, but the idea that a Heritage auction is being offered up as the Platonic ideal of a comic book sale is hilarious. I mean, Heritage has been the bogeyman on these boards for the past 20 years and now they're the only name we can trust because private sales are icky? 

[Bronty]

On 4/15/2022 at 7:14 AM, rob_react said:

I like Heritage so I'm not even throwing them under the bus here, but the idea that a Heritage auction is being offered up as the Platonic ideal of a comic book sale is hilarious. I mean, Heritage has been the bogeyman on these boards for the past 20 years and now they're the only name we can trust because private sales are icky? 

I think people sometimes take out their frustration on how much things cost at any nearly public target.   

[batman_fan]

On 4/14/2022 at 11:11 PM, tth2 said:

It was only an exchange for a long time.  The auction component came around only after Heritage had been running auctions for a few years, and of course eBay had been around running auctions since at least the mid-90s.

I give Josh credit for being the first major online comic consignment site.  Bob Storms and Metropolis also had websites early on, but my impression at the time was that they were primarily proprietary inventory.  I can’t remember if they even had functionalities to directly upload your books.  In contrast, Comiclink was set up from the get go for individual owners to upload and list their books directly.

I started buying from CLINK when they 1st opened their site (was doing my PhD at the time).  It was an exchange and didn’t start the auction thing until much later.  If I remember correctly, their 1st auction had a lot of odd ball but desirable GA stuff.  

I think people are forgetting all the various comic auctions that happened pre-Heritage.  Big ones, small ones, etc.  Mile High Comics at the 208 S. Broadway, Denver site ran a monthly auction, Comic Haven (sp?) has run one for decades, Nick Kronos (definite sp) did them (one I bid in back in 1990s had tons of key GA stuff).

[Aman619]

CBG advertised a few other private auctions too.  Comic Heaven, and others were regularly scheduled events.  Sothebys and Christies were a high mark in the 90s for wider acceptance. but they petered out as art was getting huge prices and the 1-2M comics auctions became insupportable to their big machines.  Of course Mastro came along, geared to comics and cards and posters (our stuff) but went south too under the weight of their "dealings".

[G.A.tor]

Just because a few folks don’t want to give credit to this sale doesn’t change the fact that it is a legit sale known by those that need/needed to know 

comic sales have existed outside of auctions for 80+ years. Someones opinion not involved with the sale Doesn’t validate or invalidate anymore than anyone else’s opinions. While everyone is entitled to an opinion that fact remains that opinions can be and are often just plain wrong 

[MyNameIsLegion]

On 4/15/2022 at 9:09 AM, G.A.tor said:

Just because a few folks don’t want to give credit to this sale doesn’t change the fact that it is a legit sale known by those that need/needed to know 

comic sales have existed outside of auctions for 80+ years. Someones opinion not involved with the sale Doesn’t validate or invalidate anymore than anyone else’s opinions. While everyone is entitled to an opinion that fact remains that opinions can be and are often just plain wrong 

when you time a press release to make knowledge of the private sale public, all bets are off, and everything is questionable. Everything. Period. 

[KCOComics]

On 4/15/2022 at 10:09 AM, G.A.tor said:

Just because a few folks don’t want to give credit to this sale doesn’t change the fact that it is a legit sale known by those that need/needed to know 

comic sales have existed outside of auctions for 80+ years. Someones opinion not involved with the sale Doesn’t validate or invalidate anymore than anyone else’s opinions. While everyone is entitled to an opinion that fact remains that opinions can be and are often just plain wrong 

 

I actually wonder if he even believes what he posts or if he's just trying to get a rise out of people?

Of course it's a legit sale.  Of course a high grade Sup 1 is far more valuable than a high grade AF15. It's not even really debatable.  

AF15 is a great book. The 4 9.6 copies and the handful of yet to be graded NM+ copies are all among the top 10 to 20 most valuable individual books in this hobby.  But they aren't #1... Or even top 5. 

 

Edited April 15, 2022 by KCOComics

[G.A.tor]

On 4/15/2022 at 10:22 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

when you time a press release to make knowledge of the private sale public, all bets are off, and everything is questionable. Everything. Period. 

Questionable by whom? That now public sale is way more transparent than an auction result. 
we know who the seller is. We know who the buyer is. We know the price paid. It was witnessed by multiple folks etc etc 

 

an auction is way less transparent. We don’t know, in many cases, who the buyer or seller is. We don’t know if the book actually traded hands or not. We don’t know the payment terms etc. We do know many high profile auction realized prices are the results of shills or manipulation or some other reason.

A private now made public sale is way more transparent. And while the buyer told me the reason for the delay, there is nothing questionable about it. Just because you (or anyone ) doesn’t know, doesn’t make it so 

[Robot Man]

This thread prompted me to give Redbeard a call yesterday. Been a while. He wasn’t aware of the sale and wasn’t surprised. I asked him if he was sorry he sold it and he said not in the least. He figured he made a nice profit and had the pleasure of owning it for a while. He gave me a lot of details about the sale, (and his purchase of the book), which out of respect to the seller and buyer I’m not going to disclose. There is a lot about this book I didn’t know about. 

I told him we would love it if he came back here and shared a little of what we talked about. We will see. 

None the less, it was great catching up with a good friend and laughing about old times. Ron is one of the “old guard” and is full of great stories of when this hobby was a much simpler and fun time. 

[MyNameIsLegion]

On 4/15/2022 at 9:35 AM, G.A.tor said:

Questionable by whom? That now public sale is way more transparent than an auction result. 
we know who the seller is. We know who the buyer is. We know the price paid. It was witnessed by multiple folks etc etc 

 

an auction is way less transparent. We don’t know, in many cases, who the buyer or seller is. We don’t know if the book actually traded hands or not. We don’t know the payment terms etc. We do know many high profile auction realized prices are the results of shills or manipulation or some other reason.

A private now made public sale is way more transparent. And while the buyer told me the reason for the delay, there is nothing questionable about it. Just because you (or anyone ) doesn’t know, doesn’t make it so 

oh I agree, auction payment terms are quite sketchy, for all the reason's I outlined above. But so is a private sale. Show me the cancelled check, because there's no proof it happened or what the terms were either. There coulda been a cash trade deal, who knows. That you have first hand knowledge is great, and I'm certainly not calling you a liar, your rep is pretty pristine AFAIK.  But even your first hand knowledge doesn't necessarily guarantee this was a cash sale. 

[G.A.tor]

On 4/15/2022 at 10:45 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

oh I agree, auction payment terms are quite sketchy, for all the reason's I outlined above. But so is a private sale. Show me the cancelled check, because there's no proof it happened or what the terms were either. There coulda been a cash trade deal, who knows. That you have first hand knowledge is great, and I'm certainly not calling you a liar, your rep is pretty pristine AFAIK.  But even your first hand knowledge doesn't necessarily guarantee this was a cash sale. 

I guess a couple of points (and these are generic questions/points, not necessarily directed just to you)..1)why do you feel need the need to have the sale proved to you?...were you involved? do you have first hand interest? does this sale somehow affect you or deals are you involved in?...if so, and you have (or anyone) has a legal right to know the details,  they can be provided if a judge orders

2)what bothers you the most? sale price? or public notice of the sale 3 months after it happened (just curious)?

how about this hypothetical :

maybe the seller had a net price in mind he would be willing to sell the book for....maybe (hypothetically) the price was, say $4 million...maybe (hypothetically), an accountant calculated that the tax owed on such a sale, would be 1.3 million...so maybe (hypothetically), and agreed upon price of 5.3 million is what it would take for the seller (well known who it is) to accept the buyers offer (say its all cash)... or maybe it is the 90 days after the rumor/report of the sale that bothers some...now maybe the buyer, between the contracts and legal documents, wanted/needed 90 days to make said price payment in full....you certainly wouldn't announce completion of a sale until such a time, right? or maybe the seller wanted a retract clause, that would allow termination of the sale for any reason, say, within 90 day period?...and there are other reasons to delay announcing, but thats NONE of my business...who knows, this is all hypothetical, but certainly might explain both the price and timing?... I have no clue, just thinking outloud

Edited April 15, 2022 by G.A.tor

[rob_react]

On 4/15/2022 at 10:09 AM, G.A.tor said:

Just because a few folks don’t want to give credit to this sale doesn’t change the fact that it is a legit sale known by those that need/needed to know 

comic sales have existed outside of auctions for 80+ years. Someones opinion not involved with the sale Doesn’t validate or invalidate anymore than anyone else’s opinions. While everyone is entitled to an opinion that fact remains that opinions can be and are often just plain wrong 

👍👍👍👍🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆💪💪💪💪

[MyNameIsLegion]

On 4/15/2022 at 10:03 AM, G.A.tor said:

I guess a couple of points (and these are generic questions/points, not necessarily directed just to you)..1)why do you feel need the need to have the sale proved to you?...were you involved? do you have first hand interest? does this sale somehow affect you or deals are you involved in?...if so, and you have (or anyone) has a legal right to know the details,  they can be provided if a judge orders

2)what bothers you the most? sale price? or public notice of the sale 3 months after it happened (just curious)?

how about this hypothetical :

maybe the seller had a net price in mind he would be willing to sell the book for....maybe (hypothetically) the price was, say $4 million...maybe (hypothetically), an accountant calculated that the tax owed on such a sale, would be 1.3 million...so maybe (hypothetically), and agreed upon price of 5.3 million is what it would take for the seller (well known who it is) to accept the buyers offer (say its all cash)... or maybe it is the 90 days after the rumor/report of the sale that bothers some...now maybe the buyer, between the contracts and legal documents, wanted/needed 90 days to make said price payment in full....you certainly wouldn't announce completion of a sale until such a time, right? or maybe the seller wanted a retract clause, that would allow termination of the sale for any reason, say, within 90 day period?...who knows, this is all hypothetical, but certainly might explain both the price and timing?... I have no clue, just thinking outloud

1. why make knowledge of it public at all?  To what end? I question the motive as much or more than the fact. That's drawing the scrutiny. The parties involved (the buyer and seller) may all be above reproach, and this is all cynicism brought on by rampant market manipulation in the hobby (and I'm more in the OA side, where it's more concentrated and egregious)

2. See above.  I don't care how many zeros it has, or if DC or Marvel is top dog (it's DC BTW, at least for another couple decades, and I'm a Marvel guy, those are just facts, for DC to drop, Super Hero Funny books have to drop in importance within the cultural zeitgeist of Western Civilization, and Marvel would go down harder and faster)

#. Now you make several good points here, I'm fuzzy on when it was regraded, was that before or after the sale? And maybe there were terms tied to the regrade and payment terms and even price were tied to it. That makes a lot of sense to me.  I do think the timing was somebody's hubris or $$ motivation because of the Cap sale. 

Edited April 15, 2022 by MyNameIsLegion

[G.A.tor]

On 4/15/2022 at 10:43 AM, Robot Man said:

This thread prompted me to give Redbeard a call yesterday. Been a while. He wasn’t aware of the sale and wasn’t surprised. I asked him if he was sorry he sold it and he said not in the least. He figured he made a nice profit and had the pleasure of owning it for a while. He gave me a lot of details about the sale, (and his purchase of the book), which out of respect to the seller and buyer I’m not going to disclose. There is a lot about this book I didn’t know about. 

I told him we would love it if he came back here and shared a little of what we talked about. We will see. 

None the less, it was great catching up with a good friend and laughing about old times. Ron is one of the “old guard” and is full of great stories of when this hobby was a much simpler and fun time. 

whats interesting is all this info is already known...the buyer (from redbeard), the price, the interior flaws, the color touch, etc...its all "out there" and has been for a long time...but I too, always love talking to redbeard!

[G.A.tor]

On 4/15/2022 at 11:15 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

1. why make knowledge of it public at all?  To what end? I question the motivate as much or more than the fact. That's drawing the scrutiny. The parties involved (the buyer and seller) may all be above reproach, and this is all cynicism brought on by rampant market manipulation in the hobby (and I'm more in the OA side, where it's more concentrated and egregious)

2. See above.  I don't care how many zeros it has, or if DC or Marvel is top dog (it's DC BTW, at least for another couple decades, and I'm a Marvel guy, those are just facts, for DC to drop, Super Hero Funny books have to drop in importance within the cultural zeitgeist of Western Civilization, and Marvel would go down harder and faster)

#. Now you make several good points here, I'm fuzzy on when it was regraded, was that before or after the sale? And maybe there were terms tied to the regrade and payment terms and even price were tied to it. That makes a lot of sense to me.  I do think the timing was somebody's hubris or $$ motivation because of the Cap sale. 

1 is a good question...our hobby loves to hear about these extraordinary sales...and of course, the buyer wants folks to know that the book has been bought, and has changed hands, and to make that info public...that kind of sale is a big deal...now the buyers long term plans are their own, and I'm not a liberty to disclose even if I knew (I have to speculate like everyone else), but our hobby has always announced these huge and important sales (way back when OSPG started to report it was always a highlight for me)...if this was 1985, the majority of non insiders would have to wait a year to see the sale reported in OSPG (not 90 days, or 1 day, or 3 seconds), etc... but in this era of "instant" information, its too easy to forget how these type sales were once made known...and while some buyers want sales prices to remain private, a public accounting of this sale was made

2) the timing had NOTHING to do with the cap sale...the decision to make public was made back in January (at least thats what the buyer told me and others in Janurary, long before a Cap sale ), and the delay could have been for a myriad of reasons (I speculated on some, but you are welcome to add your own  )

Edited April 15, 2022 by G.A.tor

[rob_react]

On 4/15/2022 at 11:16 AM, G.A.tor said:

whats interesting is all this info is already known...the buyer (from redbeard), the price, the interior flaws, the color touch, etc...its all "out there" and has been for a long time...but I too, always love talking to redbeard!

Information on the buyer in the 1990s  didn't have to come from Redbeard. That sale was on CNN. My mother called me to talk about it since she had met him a few times. I did some work for him in the 1990s. She called me and said, do you know anything about this? Your friend was on CNN. 

[G.A.tor]

On 4/15/2022 at 11:25 AM, rob_react said:

Information on the buyer in the 1990s  didn't have to come from Redbeard. That sale was on CNN. My mother called me to talk about it since she had met him a few times. I did some work for him in the 1990s. She called me and said, do you know anything about this? Your friend was on CNN. 

exactly...that's why I said all the info has been out there for a long time