Church/MH Superman 1 record sale in January 7 7

[Peter G]

Amazing

[Mr bla bla]

On 4/13/2022 at 9:53 PM, LDarkseid1 said:

So my only question regarding this and I’m sure my judgement is in error, but isn’t there a leniency to slight CT when it comes to golden age compared to everything else? That’s why I assumed it made sense to still be in a blue holder, but just with the notation.

Yes, GA books with CT are evaluated differently by cgc than CT books from later eras. That policy is highly irregular. Due to this inconsistency cgc is not treating books on equal footing.

[Straw-Man]

i say burn the witch!!

[Lazyboy]

On 4/13/2022 at 4:30 PM, Nic8612 said:

They used to be one and the same, just two sides of the same coin. But I did still confuse the names.  Regardless, they bought CGC last year and now this top graded, top grail comic shows up regraded with a bump and completely ignoring the newly found restoration just so they can announce a record sales figure and drive the market higher

CGC's policy on very minor GA restoration hasn't changed since they opened and the color touch was not completely ignored.

[nearmint]

On 4/13/2022 at 10:05 AM, MasterChief said:

When you run the Church 8.0 cert number (1072525001) the book pops as an 8.5 graded January 10, 2022. Same cert number. Apparently, the original cert number was used for the upgrade. First time I've seen that. In the past when a book is resubed, the old number is zeroed-out and a new number issued with new grade/label. Interesting aside, the color touch is identified as "Restoration" in the grader notes.

 

That's odd.  I wonder why?

[Larryw7]

The Church copy of Adventure 40 has very minor CT and has been in a blue slab for 20 years or so. So this policy is nothing new.

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 4/13/2022 at 4:52 PM, VintageComics said:

Yep. There's no 'book value' on top items. There's only what the seller is willing to accept to part with an item and that usually has to be a strong number.

If it wasn't a strong number, everyone would be jumping at the opportunity to buy the book, wouldn't they?

 

 

I hope the only way the MH Action 1 ever sells is at auction.   A ton of publicity beforehand, and maybe Seinfeld gets into a bidding war with this guy...

[sagii]

On 4/13/2022 at 7:23 PM, Larryw7 said:

The Church copy of Adventure 40 has very minor CT and has been in a blue slab for 20 years or so. So this policy is nothing new.

My copy of Hangman Comics 3 also falls into this group

[Professor K]

Oh Jeez. That's a lot. Is it safe to assume the current owner resubmitted it and got the .5 upgrade? And hope I don't get destroyed here but how do we know it really sold for 5.3? Probably did , I'm just a skeptic at heart. It just seems to me "why go public" with the sale. And if you gonna why not inflate the price a little.

[Professor K]

On 4/13/2022 at 1:05 PM, MasterChief said:

First 8.0 appeared in census July 01, 2001.

Second 8.0 appeared in census December 30, 2014.

8.0 removed from census December 28, 2021.

8.5 appears in census February 08, 2022.

When you run the Church 8.0 cert number (1072525001) the book pops as an 8.5 graded January 10, 2022. Same cert number. Apparently, the original cert number was used for the upgrade. First time I've seen that. In the past when a book is resubed, the old number is zeroed-out and a new number issued with new grade/label. Interesting aside, the color touch is identified as "Restoration" in the grader notes.

 

 

On 4/13/2022 at 9:19 PM, szav said:

Because the seller probably doesn’t want to pay more tax on the gain than they need to, nor run afoul of the IRS etc.

Yes but a legal agreement of sale signed in front of witnesses among other financial proof would supersede an article in The CGC Times.

I am making no accusations at all, only pointing out how easy it would be to publically inflate numbers in a private sale between unknown entities. Also that it would be benificial to do so for the purpose of maximizing profits of future sales.

I'm still trying to get all this straight in my head. All that MasterChief stated appears to be true. So two anonymous parties sold/bought a book for 5.3 million. New owner then takes what would be a huge gamble and resubs it and gets bumped up a grade. Several months after the sale CGC announces it and doesn't mention that they graded it again and gave it the bump. Plus the keeping the same # and the color touch. 

 

[Aman619]

You guys kill me.  Always spinning wild tales and taking news that’s been reported and disbelieving it. Looking for holes in the story. People in the know knew about the sale.  There are no secrets, just the ones no one told you about. But others talk. What’s so hard to understand here?  A buyer wants a big book. A Really Big Book. Dealers scurry to make a deal. Buyer and seller are matched up. Buyer is told it’s probably upgradeable, but still a great deal at the price. Buyer rolls the dice. Bingo. Happens all the time with books graded 20 years ago. Sale is leaked but Info gets garbled. Everyone goes quiet until a few months pass by and there’s a press release confirming the rumors  

but that just invites criticism and speculation of wrongdoing. The only aspect thats new is keeping the old serial number, but , isn’t that a case for greater transparency? The census shows the 8.0 disappearing and an 8.5 appearing. And with the same serial number it’s even more obvious. Wonder if it’s a change for all books or just this one big book. 
 

anyway, on with the show!

[jimjum12]

On 4/13/2022 at 7:23 PM, Larryw7 said:

The Church copy of Adventure 40 has very minor CT and has been in a blue slab for 20 years or so. So this policy is nothing new.

It's not just keys either. I had the Rockford Copy of Adventure 75 for awhile.... slabbed CGC 6.0 with "dried glue". I broke it out and enjoyed the Burnley, Baily, S&K(2), Lehti, and more inside, for many years  GOD BLESS....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[Jaydogrules]

Another "private sale".  Yeah, okay.  

Until a sale happens publicly, subject to the same public scrutiny as all of the other public sales that have managed to break records publicly, AF 15 is still top dog.

Period.  

-J.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Jaydogrules

[Professor K]

On 4/13/2022 at 11:07 PM, szav said:

I don't see how inviting scrutiny, by government/an IRS auditor, or anyone, of the money involved and by publicly stating something other than what gets reported on the relevant tax forms is advantageous for the seller, or why he would participate in the fraud.  I guess its possible people who aren't very bright were behind all this. but it just doesn't seem likely.  Or maybe there are ways to bury the real information and this sort of proposed scheme has some benefit I'm not seeing.

What future sales are they maximizing, the dozens of other Superman #1s they have?  I love a good conspiracy theory, but maybe it just took this long for CGC to put it on the front page  because they did their due diligence in verifying it was a real sale and that took time?

 

 

On 4/13/2022 at 11:41 PM, Aman619 said:

You guys kill me.  Always spinning wild tales and taking news that’s been reported and disbelieving it. Looking for holes in the story. People in the know knew about the sale.  There are no secrets, just the ones no one told you about. But others talk. What’s so hard to understand here?  A buyer wants a big book. A Really Big Book. Dealers scurry to make a deal. Buyer and seller are matched up. Buyer is told it’s probably upgradeable, but still a great deal at the price. Buyer rolls the dice. Bingo. Happens all the time with books graded 20 years ago. Sale is leaked but Info gets garbled. Everyone goes quiet until a few months pass by and there’s a press release confirming the rumors  

but that just invites criticism and speculation of wrongdoing. The only aspect thats new is keeping the old serial number, but , isn’t that a case for greater transparency? The census shows the 8.0 disappearing and an 8.5 appearing. And with the same serial number it’s even more obvious. Wonder if it’s a change for all books or just this one big book. 
 

anyway, on with the show!

You guys are probably right. Probably. 

[VintageComics]

On 4/13/2022 at 10:48 PM, Professor K said:

Yes but a legal agreement of sale signed in front of witnesses among other financial proof would supersede an article in The CGC Times.

I suppose I have to say something otherwise people will think I have something to hide.

Like all the witnesses who see all details in a public auction?

On 4/13/2022 at 10:48 PM, Professor K said:

I am making no accusations at all, only pointing out how easy it would be to publically inflate numbers in a private sale between unknown entities. Also that it would be benificial to do so for the purpose of maximizing profits of future sales.

Anything is possible of course but if you've followed my posts on those topics in the past, I've exposed some of the methods used to inflate prices.

This is a real sale. Neither the people nor the book are a secret to most old school collectors. 

And let's face it, this isn't the only big sale in the last year. We've seen Batman #1's, Cap #1's, Superman #1's, Action #1's, Detective #27's, AF #15s etc all sell for record numbers in the past year and they ALL fall into a range where they were expected to, relative to each other. There would be almost NO benefit to artificially inflating the sale of one book compared to all the other books around it. It would stick out like a sore thumb. More importantly, a Superman #1 CGC 7.0 sold for $2.6MIL 5 months ago. This is the highest graded copy and a Church to boot. 

Even before the sale happened, Superman #1 was readily accepted by most to be a top 4-5 or more likely a top 3 book of all time. The discussions were had both here and even in the SA forum so is this book really an outlier?

On 4/13/2022 at 10:48 PM, Professor K said:

Several months after the sale CGC announces it and doesn't mention that they graded it again and gave it the bump.

Has CGC ever announced the previous grade on a book when the grade has changed? 

No. So why would you expect them to do so here?

On 4/13/2022 at 10:48 PM, Professor K said:

Plus the keeping the same # and the color touch.

People have complained for years that CGC changes serial numbers on upgrades as though they are trying to hide something.

Now they keep the same serial number and they still complain. 

And why on earth would they remove the color touch notation if the color touch is still there?

On 4/14/2022 at 12:23 AM, Jaydogrules said:

Another "private sale".  Yeah, okay.  

Until a sale happens publicly, subject to the same public scrutiny as all of the other public sales that have managed to break records publicly, AF 15 is still top dog.

Period.  

-J.

But, but, but...the Superman #1 had white pages. 

This is a public sale. You know as much about this sale as you do about an auction house sale. 

Edited April 14, 2022 by VintageComics

[sfcityduck]

On 4/13/2022 at 7:48 PM, Professor K said:

 

So two anonymous parties sold/bought a book for 5.3 million. New owner then takes what would be a huge gamble and resubs it and gets bumped up a grade. Several months after the sale CGC announces it and doesn't mention that they graded it again and gave it the bump. Plus the keeping the same # and the color touch. 

 

Not sure what the problems are.

Are the buyer and seller really unknown (I'm sure some folks posting here know who both sides of the transaction are)?  Or was it Bechala?  Buyer anonymity is a given in most every auction. 

The grade bump is not surprising.  The same serial number is, and it is a welcome change!

Minimal color touch is noted just as it always was.  Apparently, the market does not view insignificant CT as a significant problem. 

 

[jimjum12]

On 4/14/2022 at 1:48 AM, sfcityduck said:

Not sure what the problems are.

Are the buyer and seller really unknown (I'm sure some folks posting here know who both sides of the transaction are)?  Or was it Bechala?  Buyer anonymity is a given in most every auction. 

The grade bump is not surprising.  The same serial number is, and it is a welcome change!

Minimal color touch is noted just as it always was.  Apparently, the market does not view insignificant CT as a significant problem. 

 

There was a recent auction for a HULK 3 that was green label CGC 8.5 due to replaced staples. I was hoping it would fetch less than 1500 due to the work, ... maybe I could afford it, and It went for what the last blue label CGC 8.5 went for. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

Edited April 14, 2022 by jimjum12

[tth2]

On 4/13/2022 at 11:25 PM, sfcityduck said:

On 4/13/2022 at 11:17 PM, jimjum12 said:

The Church AC1 is 20M by itself. GOD BLESS...

 

That is a big premium that is all speculation until someone writes the check.  The pool of buyers is getting very small at that level.  Too much of a hot potato for someone to buy for any reason other than love.

Well, if the Church Superman 1 (not the best copy) just sold for $5.3m and then the Church Action 1 and AT Tec 27 (both reputed to be the best copy) sell for only $7m or so each, then either the buyer of the Action 1 and Tec 27 will feel they got a great deal or the buyer of the Superman 1 will feel like they way overpaid. 

[tth2]

On 4/14/2022 at 4:13 AM, Aman619 said:

On 4/14/2022 at 2:25 AM, jimjum12 said:

That's why I think his ACI might garner 20 .... it has legendary status in the hobby. It's THE book. GOD BLESS....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

The Church Action 1 value today is a fun guessing game.  But since it will "never" be for sale one can say it's worth 10M today, or 20M  or even 30M ... because before it finally changes hands (which could be 20 years from now(!) it Will be worth an ever increasing amount.  Say, whatever the highest sale to date times 3 until some point where the number is REALLY crazy.  Then again what is crazy?  Not that  long ago most of us thought 5M was the crazy number for it.  Now look where we are,  with a Superman 1 in much lower condition but also from same Church collection already there... as an 8.0.  Ive heard the deal was made as an 8.0 as is.  They buyer's "team" helped it happen with confidence about the upgrade.  Question now is how much of the 5.3 is due to the Church copy significance.  Whats the other 8.0 worth, now standing lonely left behind!  

I would argue that this hobby has actually been held back to some degree by the fact that its biggest, most valuable copy has not sold in recent memory.  I think if it ever did sell, the Church Action 1 would set a definitive benchmark in valuation and would become an investment asset that flips periodically at ever increasing prices just like the Gretzky T206 did.

[Professor K]

On 4/14/2022 at 1:20 AM, VintageComics said:

I suppose I have to say something otherwise people will think I have something to hide.

 

Now I feel terrible. I feel I owe you an apology. I shouldn't have said any of what I said. I also should have known a lot of people here on the board knew who the people involved were.  You do understand I was not making any accusations, but in this case even speculating the slight possibility of something being anything but completely on the up and up was wrong of me. Sorry I put you through that.

Congratulations on your part in this historic sale.