Sent in Pedigree Came back Qualified No Pedigree 2 2

[telerites]

On 6/25/2022 at 5:41 PM, comicginger1789 said:

I know that, my apologies as I was unclear. I specifically meant that for the Big Apple one, most are higher...that's all. Especially the Golden Age ones. 5.5 was lowest Big Apple I could find. Many are 7.0-9.0 or so.

I have a Big Apple graded as a 4.5.  Good PQ though.

[Dr. Balls]

It's probably obvious to others - but I don't have any experience with pedigrees - but doesn't a pedigree collection pretty much mean that it's one owner, untouched, etc? The deeper understanding that the owner of the books would likely not be the kind of collector that would bother marrying a CF to a book? Or is that thinking a little too far into the details of the pedigree owner?

And if the case is made that a significantly-priced pedigree book is sold as complete/unrestored/whatever - the buyer has some recourse with the seller on reversing the sale? (Recourse in the sense that the buyer has some ground to stand on, whether the seller abides is something else altogether).

Edited June 25, 2022 by Dr. Balls

[buttock]

On 6/24/2022 at 8:14 AM, buttock said:

I bought an early GA book from Joe Latino way back when that was around a 3.0 and a Big Apple, but IIRC there's been some concern about non-Big Apple books being labeled otherwise (didn't CGC revoke it as a pedigree a while ago?).  In the case of a book like this, attribution of provenance is going to be a best guess, and with only a somewhat typical marking and no other identifiers my guess is that CGC would need more proof.  

I went back through my records.  My book was a Diamond Run, which is the pedigree since defrocked.  Wanted to clarify that.

[Courageous Cat]

that hunk o' is no big apple. Please stop trying to make excuses for this dealer

[jimbo_7071]

On 6/24/2022 at 11:29 AM, zzutak said:

Correct!  Some pedigrees have distinctive original owner markings on at least part of the collection (Windy City, Winnipeg, etc).  Other pedigrees have distinctive distributor or retailer markings (or no markings at all).  And we all know that distributors/retailers distributed/sold more than a single copy of each issue.  Hence, in the absence of a distinctive, nearly-impossible-to-forge cover/interior marking (supported by other condition characteristics, such as a distinctive odor or white pages), knowledge of a book's provenance becomes essential.  And, in my opinion, that's the way it should be. 

I agree that it is not a Big Apple copy. It might have come from the same distributor as the Big Apple copy.

[BlackOut21]

On 6/24/2022 at 2:13 PM, jaybuck43 said:

Lowest I've seen is a 4.5 that looked really nice (probably had much of the damage on the back.  I really don't think this is the Big Apple copy.  Here's why.  The mid 1940s books in the Big Apple collection were stored in a trunk in the house.  The "newer" books were stored in a shed.  That's why so many of them have lower page quality (cream to off white etc.)  But if you go back and look at those 1940s books, they have gorgeous page quality (usually white pages).  This book has rat chew (or some other non-marvel chipping), taped up back cover, a missing centerfold that was then married in.  I mean, it fits none of the rest of the pedigree as I've seen it.  Also, OP, you said that it was purchased from a "reputable" source but then seemed surprised about the married centerfold.  Was that fact disclosed to you at time of purchase?  I mean we all make mistakes, but I think a dealer would catch a married centerfold especially on a GA book where it happens more regularly and we know to check for it.

The seller was also surprised by the married centerfold.  I was told it was purchased in 2012 from the auction house that was selling the Big Apple collection and sat in their warehouse thereafter.  I was not told about the married centerfold during purchase but the seller offered a full refund including the cost for submission to CGC.  Turned down the offer, probably to show trust in the seller and this hobby is all about relationship. (Plus I have a lot invested in this seller and wouldn't be surprised if most of you do as well) Married centerfold, truly qualified or not, this book and I will most likely be spending quite a bit of time together.  Unless someone wants to makes me an offer  

[MrBedrock]

On 6/25/2022 at 10:44 PM, Courageous Cat said:

that hunk o' is no big apple. Please stop trying to make excuses for this dealer

Are you the dealer? You sound defensive.

[BlackOut21]

On 6/24/2022 at 4:28 PM, revat said:

Being a reputable dealer isn't about getting everything right all the time (though you shouldn't just get everything wrong), its about how you deal with mistakes that you make.

With that being said, the grade is subjective and even reputable dealers might grade a bit too generously on their own wares.  To me it looks like a 2.5 or 3.0 and maybe CGC hammered harder with the marrying (it puts a bad taste in the grader's mouth).  But just on the face of it 2.5 looks in the range to me.

And the pedigree, everyone's threshold of certainty is different.  Some might call it a pedigree at "more likely than not", which could literally just be 51% sure its a pedigree.  Another dealer or grader might need more convincing or just have more specific knowledge of the pedigree.  My guess is CGC both has a higher standard more knowledge than most dealers for pedigrees, as their reputation is literally on the line.

The tough part is the qualified grade, that one is on the dealer to me, unless its a really good job and its tough to tell, which is theoretically is why people buy comics already slabbed, so they know what they're getting.  

 

I agree.  

Is there a good book to purchase that helps you identify restoration/alternations to books?  

For this specific book I was told to review the staples and how flush the papers are, but it would be good to have a checklist of items to review on my own.  

[jaybuck43]

On 6/26/2022 at 1:33 AM, BlackOut21 said:

The seller was also surprised by the married centerfold.  I was told it was purchased in 2012 from the auction house that was selling the Big Apple collection and sat in their warehouse thereafter.  I was not told about the married centerfold during purchase but the seller offered a full refund including the cost for submission to CGC.  Turned down the offer, probably to show trust in the seller and this hobby is all about relationship. (Plus I have a lot invested in this seller and wouldn't be surprised if most of you do as well) Married centerfold, truly qualified or not, this book and I will most likely be spending quite a bit of time together.  Unless someone wants to makes me an offer  

that’s a rather odd story from the dealer. The big apple collection was famously sold off by Christie’s in the 90s and early 2000s.  The remainder was then sold by Phil Weiss. I’d be very surprised that Christie’s of all places would hold a low grade batman for 15+ years and then sell it to this dealer, rather then them get it from Phil directly.  There’s just no profit in it, especially since they’re not a regular comic seller.  

[Robot Man]

On 6/25/2022 at 4:00 PM, Dr. Balls said:

It's probably obvious to others - but I don't have any experience with pedigrees - but doesn't a pedigree collection pretty much mean that it's one owner, untouched, etc? The deeper understanding that the owner of the books would likely not be the kind of collector that would bother marrying a CF to a book? Or is that thinking a little too far into the details of the pedigree owner?

And if the case is made that a significantly-priced pedigree book is sold as complete/unrestored/whatever - the buyer has some recourse with the seller on reversing the sale? (Recourse in the sense that the buyer has some ground to stand on, whether the seller abides is something else altogether).

A pedigree collection used to mean one owner and untouched. Once dispersed, it becomes a two or three or more owner copy. There are folks who do not respect the pedigree or get greedy and manipulate them. At that point the pedigree is lost as far as I am concerned. The Promise Collection is a good and current example.

Sadly, a lot of the collecting community has accepted this blinded by the almighty dollar…

Does a buyer have recourse? Probably not much unless the seller wants to make it right. 

[Robot Man]

On 6/25/2022 at 10:33 PM, BlackOut21 said:

The seller was also surprised by the married centerfold.  I was told it was purchased in 2012 from the auction house that was selling the Big Apple collection and sat in their warehouse thereafter.  I was not told about the married centerfold during purchase but the seller offered a full refund including the cost for submission to CGC.  Turned down the offer, probably to show trust in the seller and this hobby is all about relationship. (Plus I have a lot invested in this seller and wouldn't be surprised if most of you do as well) Married centerfold, truly qualified or not, this book and I will most likely be spending quite a bit of time together.  Unless someone wants to makes me an offer  

Sounds like a good seller that would offer that. One that deserves your future business. We all miss things even CGC. An honest mistake can be forgiven if the seller does  everything they can to make it right. 

[Dr. Balls]

On 6/26/2022 at 10:11 AM, Robot Man said:

We all miss things even CGC. An honest mistake can be forgiven if the seller does  everything they can to make it right. 

I make mistakes every day, so do other people - if they make the effort to make it right and it's not like pulling teeth to get them to do so - I find that commendable, because in this day and age, it's real easy to just let someone else swing on your mistake.

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 6/24/2022 at 1:13 PM, jaybuck43 said:

This book has rat chew (or some other non-marvel chipping), taped up back cover, a missing centerfold that was then married in.

So you are saying it seems more like one of the Promise Pedigree? 

[Paul © ® ⚽️💙™]

On 6/26/2022 at 3:44 AM, Courageous Cat said:

that hunk o' is no big apple. Please stop trying to make excuses for this dealer

Yep.

OP got hosed.

Pure and simple.

The only pedigree thing about that book is the perpetrated scam. Pure pedigree old school scam.

[Timely]

The Big Apple collection goes back to 1939. There is even a Detective #31 in the collection. But the older books were pretty damaged with lower page quality. Then in late 1943, the page quality goes up significantly! As do the grades!  The main problem with those books is they were stored next to gasoline or kerosine and smell. What’s worse is there was a leak of some sort and many of those pristine, white paged books have stains do to this leak.

[lou_fine]

On 6/26/2022 at 11:26 AM, onlyweaknesskryptonite said:

So you are saying it seems more like one of the Promise Pedigree? 

 

On 6/29/2022 at 4:29 AM, Timely said:

The Big Apple collection goes back to 1939................................But the older books were pretty damaged with lower page quality. Then in late 1943, the page quality goes up significantly! As do the grades!

So, you ARE confirming that it seems more like the Promise Collection pedigree, albeit probably more accurately graded without all of the controversial soft grades that some of the Promise books are so well known for.  

[Robot Man]

On 6/29/2022 at 4:29 AM, Timely said:

The Big Apple collection goes back to 1939. There is even a Detective #31 in the collection. But the older books were pretty damaged with lower page quality. Then in late 1943, the page quality goes up significantly! As do the grades!  The main problem with those books is they were stored next to gasoline or kerosine and smell. What’s worse is there was a leak of some sort and many of those pristine, white paged books have stains do to this leak.

I have a couple of supposedly Big Apple books. They aren’t very high grade. One is water stained I believe. I bought them because I wanted them not for the pedigree.

I have never really seeked any out nor would I pay any premium. No markings and very little providence. Just never seemed pedigree worthy to me. 

[Robot Man]

This is supposedly a Big Apple. I bought it from Steve Ritter at SDCC a few years ago. I bought it not for the pedigree but for the story where Georgie visits Timely comics.

[jimbo_7071]

On 6/30/2022 at 11:34 AM, Robot Man said:

This is supposedly a Big Apple. I bought it from Steve Ritter at SDCC a few years ago. I bought it not for the pedigree but for the story where Georgie visits Timely comics.

Some Big Apple copies are low grade—no argument. But have you ever seen a Big Apple copy with tape or a married centerfold? The only way I can see the original poster's book being a Big Apple book is if CGC made the wrong call on the married centerfold and if the tape repair is an extremely old repair.

[southern cross]

I've sent in the past pedigree books that I'd bought off Metro that had the sticker of the pedigree on the mylar.

Big Apple, Boston and Oakland and they came back with the pedigree on the label.

I've read in the past that the golden age books of the Big Apple collection were nice with great page quality and the silver books are quite the worse of all silver age pedigrees.

Did the OP post the page quality of the Batman?

Anyhow here is the lowest grade Big Apple silver book I have for my TTA run.